Predestination

[LachMck]

So, I was reading through Ephesians last night and I found this passage:
" In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment —to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

So I followed my bible's footnotes, and found myself in Romans 8:29-30:
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

So this raises the question of predestination. Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives? And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

 

[98cwitr]

Yes.

What about them? They are not chosen elect.

 

[LachMck]

So, if they are not chosen by God to live with him, does he love them? For if he definitively chose who would come to him and who would not, is he not denying those people a chance?

 

[Albion]

So, if they are not chosen by God to live with him, does he love them? For if he definitively chose who would come to him and who would not, is he not denying those people a chance?

We shouldn't impose our own standards of justice and fairness upon God whose ways we know from the Bible are not our ways. If he elects some, he's merciful to them. If he does not elect others, that doesn't cheat them out of a salvation they otherwise deserve, does it?

Consider the parable of the man who hired workers and wound up paying those who were hired late in the day and who only worked a short time the same as those who worked all day. The latter said it was unfair that every worker got the same pay, but the master replied that they had been given what was agreed upon and as for what was paid to the others, what went to them was his business.

 

[fhansen]

So, I was reading through Ephesians last night and I found this passage:
" In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment —to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

So I followed my bible's footnotes, and found myself in Romans 8:29-30:
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

So this raises the question of predestination. Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives? And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

Doesn't really matter. It's an academic point because we can't know just who the elect are anyway with 100% certainty until the end when God judges us. I've know people who were certain they were of the elect who fell away later or who could just plain care less about any of it now.

So it's not even worth pondering. Do what scripture admonishes us to do. Keep your head down and your nose to the grindstone, being vigilant, persevering in doing good, investing your talents, refraining from sin, striving, like Paul, to attain eternal life, living in the Spirit, loving God and neighbor, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, seeking to know God earnestly, etc. etc...and you won't go wrong.

 

[elopez]

So this raises the question of predestination. Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives? And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

God predestines salvation. Beyond that I see nothing else predestined. In other words, predestination is only relevant to salvation. We can say that takes us on a certain path but that doesn't necessarily mean everything is predestined.

God does not predestine those others to punishment. The reprobate is the result of God electing some which stems from the desire for sin.

 

[Albion]

God predestines salvation. Beyond that I see nothing else predestined. In other words, predestination is only relevant to salvation. We can say that takes us on a certain path but that doesn't necessarily mean everything is predestined.

That's a good summary. And accurate. So often in these kinds of discussions, the opponents of predestination misrepresent it as making us all incapable of deciding anything in life (like the color of car we want to buy), denying that we are robots, or etc. Thanks.

God does not predestine those others to punishment. The reprobate is the result of God electing some which stems from the desire for sin.

??

 

[Emmy]

Dear LachMak. God made us in His image, He is our Heavenly Father. We are all predestined to become His loving children/sons and daughters, But we are also given free will to choose our eternity: with God and our loving brothers and sisters, OR go our own way, and end up in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love and Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth.
God is Love, and God wants loving children to live eternity with. Jesus swill give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. Jesus told us to " Ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us.
Jesus told a Lawyer in St.Matthews: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is: Love thy neighbour as thyself." God wants our Love freely given, and NO conditions tagged on. Then we love and treat our neighbour, ( all around us, friends and not friends) as we would love to be treated: kindly and with friendly words, helping hands, ( where necessary) and encouraging smiles. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and bless us. God will also know that we love God: How? God will see how we are following His Commandments to love and care. Jesus our Saviour, is always ready to help and guide us, in fact: Jesus is The Way back to God where we come from. We might stumble and forget, but then we get up and ask God to forgive us, and God will forgive us, as we will forgive those who sin against us. ( as Jesus taught us in His Prayer: " Father forgive us our sins, as we will forgive those, who sin against us.") I say this with love, LachMak. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. God made us all, and God wants us all but sadly some of us prefere their own way and realise too late, their great mis-judgment.

 

[Johnnz]

The predestination was for sonship i.e. family), not who would come into the family.

John
NZ

 

[98cwitr]

So, if they are not chosen by God to live with him, does he love them? For if he definitively chose who would come to him and who would not, is he not denying those people a chance?

How do you give that which you created for destruction a chance? How does you above statement fit with the Omniscience of God?

Fact of the matter is, none of us have a "chance." This isn't about being (making yourself) "good enough" for God.

 

[fhansen]

How do you give that which you created for destruction a chance? How does you above statement fit with the Omniscience of God?

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment? Guess we have no choice anyway??? Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

 

[Johnnz]

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment? Guess we have no choice anyway??? Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

That's one good reason to reject the traditional teaching of individual predestination. God becomes an ogre.

John
NZ

 

[98cwitr]

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment? Guess we have no choice anyway??? Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

Well...I would for one. God is Sovereign over all things...over the entire world. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

Tyrant? Have you read Revelations? God is going to make the entire world new one day...with no more death or pain and all people will be good (Children of God) for eternity! How is it that God is tyrant if He will do such a great thing?

If you reject personal predestination then you have to reject the following verses:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

 

[Albion]

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment? Guess we have no choice anyway??? Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

That's one good reason to reject the traditional teaching of individual predestination. God becomes an ogre.

In this life we see as through a glass darkly. I'm quite certain that the things of God which we do not understand in this life will seem entirely different when we reach the life that follows.

 

[fhansen]

Tyrant? Have you read Revelations? God is going to make the entire world new one day...with no more death or pain and all people will be good (Children of God) for eternity! How is it that God is tyrant if He will do such a great thing?

Yes, but nothing but pain for the rest! And it would be totally of His doing and none of their own fault!

 

[98cwitr]

Yes, but nothing but pain for the rest! And it would be totally of His doing and none of their own fault!

We are ALL at fault man! Please please please go read all of Romans 9...right now!

 

[Johnnz]

My replies are in bold

Well...I would for one. God is Sovereign over all things...over the entire world. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

You cannot have a good God and a tyrant. Sovereignty does not abolish morality.

Tyrant? Have you read Revelations? God is going to make the entire world new one day...with no more death or pain and all people will be good (Children of God) for eternity! How is it that God is tyrant if He will do such a great thing?

Not at all. That's no tyrant rampaging for personal power. That's the God of justice, bringing about the end of all that is opposed to and destroying His beloved family. It's about righteousness, not brutality.

If you reject personal predestination then you have to reject the following verses:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Again, not at all. We are predestined for conformity to the image of His Son, for adoption into the Divine Family, the church being those who have responded to that vision and become part of God's eternal purposes, which he began for humanity in Eden but planned for prior to creation.

Eph 1:4-7 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. NIV

That is what the Triune community had in His mind when they created us, not to remain as Adam was, but to go beyond that and become part of 'family'. Amazing.

John
NZ

 

[Jipsah]

Dear LachMak. God made us in His image, He is our Heavenly Father. We are all predestined to become His loving children/sons and daughters, But

That's where you went foul. If we're predestined, there is no "but". We're either predestined or we're not. If it's all up to our "free will" (which isn't, BTW, all that killin' free) then we do the choosing, punto. If we're predestined, then God does the choosing, punto. No way to have both, somebody has to make the decision. You either believe that God chooses, or that we do.

 

[Johnnz]

No buts. It's about sonship, not which ones.

John
NZ

 

[98cwitr]

I agree...no buts...He does the choosing or we do (which we don't).

My replies are in bold



John
NZ

I'm failing to see where God is immoral in this...if we are all guilty of sin then we should all be punished (justice), but in His Mercy some are saved (Grace). God is good...because He is both just and merciful and is both perfectly.