Pope: denying Israel's right to exist is anti-Semitic

[ebia]

So "a Jewish state" means no more than a state religion with virtually no impact on pragmatics?

 

[dzheremi]

I don't blame the Palestinians who won't recognize Israel as a Jewish state. It is nobody's best interest (Jew, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise) to pretend along with the Zionists that Israel ought to be an intrinsically Jewish state more than any other kind of state. If Saudi Arabia is forever to be the world's boogieman because, oh my gosh, look at how oppressive and Islamic it is, then how can you seriously turn around and claim that Israel has some sort of God-given right to its essential 'Jewish' character? Both are the foundation for inherently unequal laws by virtue of law codes that favor one religion (or even one strain of one religion -- in KSA, Wahhabi Islam, and in Israel, Orthodox Judaism) over all others, thereby setting up an inherently unequal and undemocratic society. The thing is, Israel knows it's in trouble if it has to treat the Palestinians as equals (like an actual democracy would), because demographic trends do not favor it retaining its "Jewish identity" long into the future in that case, since the Muslim population is overall much younger than the non-Muslim population there. This is why Israel sets recognition of its Jewish identity as a precondition to dealing with the Palestinians: It has to enshrine it in law somehow, because it cannot maintain it naturally. It never could, hence the liquidation of Arab villages, building of settlements, official support of Orthodox Judaism over other kinds (NB: according to some estimates, the Haredi -- the most "ultra-Orthodox" of the Orthodox Jews -- in Israel reproduce at a rate that is at least two and a half times that of the local Arabs), etc. In America, we would call that "stacking the deck", and it is actually the cause of much concern among some in the Western world regarding the growing Muslim population (e.g., "population Jihad", "Eurabia", etc).

I hope the irony of that isn't lost on Israel's most strident supporters in this thread. You bring up Saudi Arabia, and how terrible the Muslim-by-law states are and all this, and I agree, but I also maintain that Israel has a lot more in common with them than you're probably comfortable with. To me opposing Israel and Saudi Arabia are two sides of the same fight for human rights. I stand with Palestine not because I hate Jews (I love Jews! My God was incarnate as a Jew, and He's the reason why we're all here), or because I'm a "leftist" (I think my many disagreements with Ebia on issues other than this one would bear that out, as well as my voting record), but because I can't support a discriminatory state like Israel just because it portrays itself as Jewish instead of Islamic. They're both false faiths, so choosing one over the other is pointless. The only religion I'll stand with is my own, and my religion teaches me that whatever I do to the least of the King's brethren, that I have done unto Him.

 

[Open Heart]

65% might say they are Christian when asked the question on a census form. I'm english. I'd say england isn't meaningfully Christian beyond some heritage. So a comparison to england isn't helping.

Try stating outright what you mean by Israel as a Jewish state

I have replied. You just don't like my answer.

 

[Armoured]

Nods.

So how does that help understand what Israel as a Jewish state would mean?


So that's kind of the issue. One can affirm Israel as a legitimate state, but "Jewish state" is way too ambiguous.

You have to remember the type of people you're talking to. People who love to wrap themselves in "Well X is a Christian country" in place of an actual, reasonable argument about why various vaguely Biblical prohibitions should be applied to secular law today, or to justify distaste for certain minorities. Seen through this prism, it make sense that they're keen to identify fellow "Christian countries", although in the sense they tend to mean, with the exception possibly of The Vatican, no such country exists.

 

[Open Heart]

So "a Jewish state" means no more than a state religion with virtually no impact on pragmatics?

A Jewish state means two things:
1. That the state religion is Judaism, and so there will be some societal accomodations such as Shabbat.
2. That because Israel is a safe haven for Jews fleeing antisemitism, there will always be a preference given Jews for immigration. This does NOT mean that other peoples will be denied citizenship.

If you want to know what "A Jewish State" means, look at Israel today.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

A Jewish state means two things:
1. That the state religion is Judaism, and so there will be some societal accomodations such as Shabbat.
2. That because Israel is a safe haven for Jews fleeing antisemitism, there will always be a preference given Jews for immigration. This does NOT mean that other peoples will be denied citizenship.

And that's unlike Saudi Arabia which does not allow any non-Muslim to be a citizen.

 

[Open Heart]

And that's unlike Saudi Arabia which does not allow any non-Muslim to be a citizen.

Exactly. Israel is a western democracy and Saudi Arabia is not.

 

[ebia]

A Jewish state means two things:
1. That the state religion is Judaism, and so there will be some societal accomodations such as Shabbat.
2. That because Israel is a safe haven for Jews fleeing antisemitism, there will always be a preference given Jews for immigration. This does NOT mean that other peoples will be denied citizenship.

And that's the limit?

 

[Open Heart]

And that's the limit?

I sure can't think of anything more. I'm not wanting a State out of Leviticus if that's what you are thinking. Pretty much, I like the Jewish state that Israel is today. It has some bugs to work out, but then all nations do. I'm proud of the fact that Israel is a western democracy, that it gives more rights to women, gays, and ethnic and religious minorities than any other country in the middle east.

 

[ebia]

I sure can't think of anything more. I'm not wanting a State out of Leviticus if that's what you are thinking.

Okay. And I'll take it you envisage protection for the reasonable rights of non jewish residents.

Now, then, how would someone hypothetically recognising Israel as a "jewish state" know whether it's your idea of what that means they are affirming, or some more extreme notion?

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, Israel is so "Western and democratic", it has proposed settling the Bedouins against their will in order to preserve its Jewish majority. Totally a democratic thing to do.

Tune in tomorrow, when all of America's Muslims will be forcibly airlifted to uninhabited American territories in the Pacific, or don't miss next week's replay of the double-feature The Trail of Tears: The Most Democratic Thing that Has Ever Happened Anywhere, Which We Totally Still Think is Awesome and a Bedrock of Democracy Forever! and Why the Japanese Internment Camps Were a Good Idea: How Being at War Makes Democracy Mean Whatever We Say it Means and Anyway, Who Can Really Trust Those People?

Playing round the clock in Israel, forever and ever and ever. Amen.

 

[SolomonVII]

65% might say they are Christian when asked the question on a census form. I'm english. I'd say england isn't meaningfully Christian beyond some heritage. So a comparison to england isn't helping.

Try stating outright what you mean by Israel as a Jewish state

It is a state where Jews will always be given refuge, a homeland for Jews.

 

[ebia]

It is a state where Jews will always be given refuge, a homeland for Jews.

And that's all?

 

[SolomonVII]

Can you imagine the world's uproar if Israel treated its non-Jews the way the Saudis treat their non-Muslims?

You know, I am pretty sure that Saudi Arabia bombed the Shia rebels of Yemen with thousands of dead civilians, and nobody much noticed.
There was a few tsks-tsks from the UN maybe, but unlike Jews with yarmulkes in France, there are no reports of Saudis in their unique garb being spat at or in any way in danger because of this bombing campaign.

The world doesn't much care when Muslims kill other Muslims, or Jews or Christians for that matter.
But when Jews kill Muslims, it is like the end of the universe.

 

[SolomonVII]

And that's all?

That's plenty enough, whether or not there is anything more.
It is a pretty big thing actually, given how much the world hates the Jews, as has already been noted by LWU and myself commenting on those posts.

 

[ebia]

You know, I am pretty sure that Saudi Arabia bombed the Shia rebels of Yemen with thousands of dead civilians, and nobody much noticed.

Didn't they.

Not quite the same though. Nobody significant in the west tries to pretend the Saudi regime is okay. There's less conversation because there's no controversy. And limited ability to influence.

There was a few tsks-tsks from the UN maybe, but unlike Jews with yarmulkes in France, there are no reports of Saudis in their unique garb being spat at or in any way in danger because of this bombing campaign.

I doubt most of the kinds of people who beat up random people like that distinguish to that degree of precision. People get harassed and beaten up for looking muslim all the time. It's not newsworthy.

The world doesn't much care when Muslims kill other Muslims, or Jews or Christians for that matter.

Speak for yourself. There's plenty of coverage of muslim initiated attrocities around the world. Precious little, on the whole, of Bhuddist ones, I'd say.
Not a whole heap on, say, Christian initiated violence in central Africa lately.

But when Jews kill Muslims, it is like the end of the universe.

when you claim to be a western style democracy, and get supported like you are, expect to be held to that kind of standard.

 

[ebia]

That's plenty enough, whether or not there is anything more.
It is a pretty big thing actually, given how much the world hates the Jews, as has already been noted by LWU and myself commenting on those posts.

The demand was that palestinians should recognise Israel as a Jewish state. Since then, people have been evasive about what exactly that means. You can't seriously expect palestinians to rubber stamp something when nobody will say what it means; it's an invitation for equivocation.

 

[Open Heart]

And that's all?

Can I ask what it is that you are worried about?

 

[Open Heart]

Not quite the same though. Nobody significant in the west tries to pretend the Saudi regime is okay.

Are you serious? No one responds to the Saudis as if they are NOT okay. Do you hear of any protests? Does anyone disinvest? Is there any talk of boycotts?

 

[ebia]

While there are certainly differences between Israel and England, England is a Christian state in the sense that its history is Christian,

The past is what it is.
Doesmt really help us understand what it would mean to affirm israel as a Jewish state.

its laws, customs and morality have all evolved from a Christian context, the majority of its people are still Christian, and their head of state is also head of the Anglican Church.
Israel and England are in no way theocracies, and Israel itself is not so much a haven for Judaism, but for Jews, whether or not they are still believers. Likewise, belief in Christ is not a requirement for the English, but if Christianity becomes completely erased from English sensibilities, that would be a real break in the culture and that kind of England would be about as English as Jordan is Moabite.[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? No one responds to the Saudis as if they are NOT okay. Do you hear of any protests? Does anyone disinvest? Is there any talk of boycotts?

like the Saudi royal family would give a stuff about a western protest.
In most cases sanctions hit the poorest, while making little difference to dictators.
The main stuff we buy from them is oil. Which can realistically only be boycotted at a very big level. Around here the petrol isn't sold by country.

Should we be pressuring for change there - absolutely. But that pressure (and support) is at a multi-national business level, where individuals and increasingly governments are pretty power powerless.