Pastor Rob Bell Leaving Mars Hill Church

[ebia]

ebia

I don't need persuading of scripture I believe thank you.

they do not hold what you claim.

Sorry, but they do - see the authors I cited.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,
The scripture speaks for itself. Can you please show me some BCP or liturgy that indicates all might end up saved. Otherwise no, its not as you claim even though some may have said the same.

 

[ebia]

Sorry, but they do - see the authors I cited.

Cormac Cardinal Murphy O'Connor:

"We're not bound to believe that anybody's there (in hell), let's face it... I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I've loved on this earth."

 

[ebia]

ebia,
The scripture speaks for itself. Can you please show me some BCP or liturgy that indicates all might end up saved. Otherwise no, its not as you claim even though some may have said the same.

SOME? Canonized saints of the past, an Orthodox Metropolitan Archbishop/top Orthodox scholar, a recent Pope, possibly the most respected Catholic theologian on the 20th century, a Cardinal and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Are you seriously trying to claim that you know what their three churches teach better than they do?

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,

SOME?

Yes please.

Canonized saints of the past,

Let me stop you there. What you have responded with is not BCP or liturgy. Please read the question and don’t assume either that what some people claim overrules what scriptures says.

NB even if you are going to cite people. please quote what they have said.

 

[ebia]

ebia,
Yes please.

it's not an offer. I wrote SOME to make a point. You suggested I had cited some people as though the people I cited were run of the mill people, when they are actually key authority figures in their respective churches.

JPII, Murphy OConnor and Hans Von Balthasar speak with authority on RCC belief
Kalistos Ware likewise on the Orthodox Church
Rowan Williams likewise in so far as anyone can on the Anglican church

You don't on any of them.

Let me stop you there. What you have responded with is not BCP or liturgy.

I'm not offering to give you liturgy.

I've given you authority figures at the highest level in each church on what their church teaches. All of them allow that it is legitimate to hope that God will save all.

Please read the question and don't assume either that what some people claim overrules what scriptures says.

they are people who are authorized to speak on what their church teaches and what is permissible opinion. If you can't accept that as a permissible opinion then you have a problem with the those churches (and others no doubt).

NB even if you are going to cite people. please quote what they have said.

I've given you a quote from Cardinal Murphy O Connor. You'll find Timothy Ware's in "The Orthodox Church" and elsewhere. Balthasar in Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved. The others you can find for yourself if you're so inclined.

If you are not prepared to believe these people when they say "x is a permissible opinion for a Catholic/Anglican/Orthodox" then you are simply in denial.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,

I'm not offering to give you liturgy.

Then I don’t believe what you are claiming.

Cormac Cardinal Murphy O'Connor:

"We're not bound to believe that anybody's there (in hell), let's face it...

Lets face Matthew 25 and Revelation 22, and the rest. I would disagree with the Cardinal on this, are we bound to believe a Cardinal or what the NT says?

I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I've loved on this earth."

So has he loved all the people on this earth, everyone of them? Are the Saints not the believers?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Good posts from Woodpecker.
Here are the problems..


''Suffering exists and God cares about those in pain, “
Yes, true, God warned His people who he gave free choice about life and death throughout His Biblical Testimony. Jesus also said do not be surprised about suffering, He had to suffer as well.

yet God loves us enough to allow us to continue to live in the hell of our own choosing''.

ah ha. Bell has missed the gospel 100%. And indeed what on earth does this sentence actually mean? Is it a strw man?
God does indeed not allow us to live in hell because He has sent His Son so that all who believe will not perish but have eternal life.

'' Hell is real, but it is a place WE CREATE for ourselves as we reject the gift of life God offers to us here on earth''.

The truth is hell/eternal death is real because Jesus warns of it.
As to Rob Bell’s statement I dont create any hell for myself, dont do it for me.



Yes it looks like Rob Bell has succumbed to a great deception.

 

[ebia]

ebia,
Then I don't believe what you are claiming.

JPII, Murphy O Connor, Balthasar all speak with authority on the scope of opinions Catholics may hold
Kalistos Ware speaks with authority on the scope of what Orthodox may believe
Rowan Williams speaks with authority on what Anglicans may believe

All say that it is legitimate to hope that God will save everybody.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZF4CF09AAGkpHQzvrhGgaahi1zdE5mg7Ez4Nqd-uDJlJDf2Ly

Lets face Matthew 25 and Revelation 22, and the rest. I would disagree with the Cardinal on this, are we bound to believe a Cardinal or what the NT says?

You're not bound to agree with the Cardinal is right about hell.

You would be foolish to not believe that he is right about the Catholic Church and the scope of opinion it allows.

 

[ebia]

Good posts from Woodpecker.
Here are the problems..


''Suffering exists and God cares about those in pain, “
Yes, true, God warned His people who he gave free choice about life and death throughout His Biblical Testimony. Jesus also said do not be surprised about suffering, He had to suffer as well.

ah ha. Bell has missed the gospel 100%. And indeed what on earth does this sentence actually mean? Is it a strw man?
God does indeed not allow us to live in hell because He has sent His Son so that all who believe will not perish but have eternal life.

The truth is hell/eternal death is real because Jesus warns of it.
As to Rob Bell’s statement I dont create any hell for myself, dont do it for me.



Yes it looks like Rob Bell has succumbed to a great deception.

Read the book first, remember.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Ebia,

JPII, Murphy O Connor, Balthasar all speak with authority on the scope of opinions Catholics may hold
Kalistos Ware speaks with authority on the scope of what Orthodox may believe
Rowan Williams speaks with authority on what Anglicans may believe

All say that it is legitimate to hope that God will save everybody.

I am not disputing that, I am disputing whether they say what you claim. And if you want to debate try quoting to me what they say on the matter with a link to that.

You're not bound to agree with the Cardinal is right about hell.
You would be foolish to not believe that he is right about the Catholic Church and the scope of opinion it allows.

Well you follow your Cardinal and I will follow Jesus NT teaching in Matthew 25 and Revelation 22.

Read the book first, remember.

So are you telling me the quotes were incorrect or that he corrects them?

 

[ebia]

Ebia,
I am not disputing that, I am disputing whether they say what you claim. And if you want to debate try quoting to me what they say on the matter with a link to that.

go look in the books cited. Balthasars is a whole book on the topic. And you have the Cardinal's quote - that's sufficient for the RCC. If you claim to know anything about E Orthodoxy but aren't Orthodox you ought already to have read Timothy Ware's. When you've confined Balthazar then it's sufficient to know that he was JPII's favorite theologian - and one of Benedict XVI's for that matter.

 

[ebia]

So are you telling me the quotes were incorrect or that he corrects them?

I'm saying judge the whole of what Rob Bell says in the full context - which is largely about challenging people to think about their assumptions - rather than judging a book on somebody else's quotemining. Thats what you agreed before - that one needs to read the boom to judge it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Ebia,

go look in the books cited. Balthasars is a whole book on the topic. And you have the Cardinal's quote - that's sufficient for the RCC. If you claim to know anything about E Orthodoxy but aren't Orthodox you ought already to have read Timothy Ware's. When you've confined Balthazar then it's sufficient to know that he was JPII's favorite theologian - and one of Benedict XVI's for that matter.

No, you demonstrate. I do not accept the Cardinals quote,
http://www.romancatholicism.org/fathers-will.htm
is in line with the Bible.

I'm saying judge the whole of what Rob Bell says in the full context –

And I have asked you a question about the quotes. You have read the book, are they accurate or does he detract them?

 

[ebia]

Ebia,
No, you demonstrate.

I have. Reference to published works is a proper citation.

I do not accept the Cardinals quote,

he was the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster. He said what he said. It's not up for you to accept or not. He speaks as an official teacher of the RCC at the highest level. If he says it without getting his knuckles rapped by the Pope then it is okay for a Catholic to hold that view.

And I have asked you a question about the quotes. You have read the book, are they accurate or does he detract them?

Anyone who wants to give informed comment on a book needs to read it. You know that.

 

[ebia]

Ebia,
No, you demonstrate. I do not accept the Cardinals quote,
http://www.romancatholicism.org/fathers-will.htm
is in line with the Bible.
And I have asked you a question about the quotes. You have read the book, are they accurate or does he detract them?

Did you look at the website you posted - they're Sedevaticanists.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,

I have. Reference to published works is a proper citation.

So has Woodpecker, with quotes from the book in question.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Who Can Be Saved?

 

[washedagain]

Ebia,

No thats a contradiction, we know some will not be saved as the scripture says so.
A and C are both false.

TOTALLY AGREE!

 

[ebia]

Who Can Be Saved?

What's your point?
Avery Dulles takes a different view to some others. His and Balthasars and Murphy OConnor's are all within the scope of opinion allowed within the Catholic Church.