Pagan influences

[Der Alte]

Let's look at Christmas. It's basically a pagan holiday, with all its traditions that Christianity has adopted.

There is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence that December 25 had any special significance to any pagan culture.

Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25-there is biblical evidence. But many pagan gods and celebrations were idolized around Dec 25

See my previous comment. There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25.

the birth of Jesus is in the bible, but not Christmas, that is a tradition of men steeped in paganism.

There is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence that December 25 had any special significance to any pagan culture.

History shows Christmas predates Christ by many centuries.

Why did the early Catholic church adopt such a pagan holiday?

There is no such evidence. See my previous comment.

The New testament did not celebrate Christmas

Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Does Christmas really honor Christ?

What is your view on all this?

Even if the date is incorrect, Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. Christians are not responsible for any commercialization of Christmas by non-Christians.

 

[James Is Back]

Der Alter can you provide some evidence that it isn't a pagan holiday so if someone comes up to me and tells me that Christmas is pagan I can have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Vanguard PCD]

There is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence that December 25 had any special significance to any pagan culture.

There is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence that December 25 had any special significance to any pagan culture.

Uhm, are you seriously going to preach this drivel? December 25th has long been a day of celebration for many cultures throughout the world, long before Christianity. The winter solstice for the northern hemisphere falls on December 21, and many festivals are planned after that date. You really need to study history before making false statements.

Since you brought it up, can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that Jesus resurrected on the 3rd day? Were you there? Do you have pictures or a video? Many skeptics say that His body was stolen to make it look as if He resurrected. Prove them wrong...

Note: I am not saying He did not resurrect, I am asking for proof outside of the Bible, that is credible, verifiable and historically accurate that backs up the Bible's claim.

 

[Der Alte]

Uhm, are you seriously going to preach this drivel?

It is only drivel if you can prove it. I'm waiting for your evidence.

December 25th has long been a day of celebration for many cultures throughout the world, long before Christianity. The winter solstice for the northern hemisphere falls on December 21, and many festivals are planned after that date. You really need to study history before making false statements.

I have studied history, real history, have you? I don't mean random blogs online spreading disinformation. Here are three histories I have in my library.

A History of Christianity, Vol. I, Beginnings to 1500, Kenneth Scott Latourette, Harper & Row, 1975.

Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelley, Harper & Row, 1978

The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Baker House, 1978​

"December 25th has long been a day of celebration for many cultures throughout the world, long before Christianity. " Is this anything like "Everybody knows," or "It's a known fact?" No, zero, none evidence that December 25th has long been anythng in any culture.

Since you brought it up, can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that Jesus resurrected on the 3rd day? Were you there? Do you have pictures or a video? Many skeptics say that His body was stolen to make it look as if He resurrected. Prove them wrong...

Note: I am not saying He did not resurrect, I am asking for proof outside of the Bible, that is credible, verifiable and historically accurate that backs up the Bible's claim.

I have not asked you to provide extrabiblical evidence for anything in the Bible and I see no reason to respond to such an absurd request. You made extrabiblical claims and I asked for evidence. I'll understand when you can't back up what you say.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter can you provide some evidence that it isn't a pagan holiday so if someone comes up to me and tells me that Christmas is pagan I can have evidence to the contrary?

It is impossible to prove a negative. But when people claim that Christmas, or any other Christian holy day, is pagan the burden of proof is on them to prove it.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

It is only drivel if you can prove it. I'm waiting for your evidence.



I have studied history, real history, have you? I don't mean random blogs online spreading disinformation. Here are three histories I have in my library.

A History of Christianity, Vol. I, Beginnings to 1500, Kenneth Scott Latourette, Harper & Row, 1975.

Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelley, Harper & Row, 1978

The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Baker House, 1978
​

"December 25th has long been a day of celebration for many cultures throughout the world, long before Christianity. " Is this anything like "Everybody knows," or "It's a known fact?" No, zero, none evidence that December 25th has long been anythng in any culture.

/yawn

I have not asked you to provide extrabiblical evidence for anything in the Bible and I see no reason to respond to such an absurd request. You made extrabiblical claims and I asked for evidence. I'll understand when you can't back up what you say.

And the answer is...NO! Not a shred of evidence to support your claims either. The door swings both ways.

 

[Der Alte]

/yawn

As I thought you believe anything you read online which attacks Jesus, the Bible and/or Christianity but you can't provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for anything.

And the answer is...NO! Not a shred of evidence to support your claims either. The door swings both ways.

No the door does not swing both ways. I have scriptural and historical evidence for anything I say. Christians believe the Bible. If you would rather believe anything anti=Christian you read online rather than the Bible that is not my problem.

 

[jacobs well]

None of this addresses my post and the 90+ scriptures, 72 personal atrtributes of the Hoy Spirit I listed. You try to make the Holy Spirit the power of God then object when it doesn't fit your assumptions. That is not my problem.



How you choose to define something does not make it so.



Asserting that does not make it so.



No He didn't unless He also equated the Holy Spirit with love and a sound mind. "a spirit" is not "the Spirit."

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.​

The Holy Spirit has all the attributes of God including a distinct self, will, and mind.



Repeating an assertion does not make it true. The Son has no existence apart from God.



See the four passages of scripture I quoted above which equate the Holy Spirit with God.



Irrelevant! You first claimed that the Holy Spirit was not mentioned in any of the salutations. Now after I proved that wrong you are waffling trying to make it about something else.



Irrelevant! Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Paul understood no such thing since he never made any statement to that effect. The holy Spirit is a person with at least 72 personal characteristics, including a distinct self, will and mind. An impersonal "power" does not have a mind, self, or will, does not speak, etc.



The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

This is my final statement on the Holy Spirit and then I want to show the pagan influences of christmas and the biblical proof Jesus was actually born in the autumn around late September and not on Dec. 25th.

the Holy Spirit:
The Bible most often refers to the Holy Spirit as God's divine power.
Jewish scholars examining the references to it in the OT scriptures have never referred the HS as anything but the power pf God, never as a distinct person.

The NEW Catholic Encyclopedia admits " The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person.....God's spirit is simply God's power. if it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly ......the majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not some one. this is is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God." Vol 13, " Spirit of God " pp.574-576
The reference work A Catholic Dictionary acknowledges " On the whole the NT, like the OT, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power:
2004, " Trinity, Holy ' pg.827

In visions of the Throne of God in the bible we see the Father and the Son, Jesus, standing at the right hand of God but no Holy Spirit. Acts 7:55-56
In Dan 7:9-14 - we see the Father and the Son but Daniel did not report seeing no third person.
and of course at the end of this world in Rev 21:1 we see the Father and the Son, but absent again in this last and final book of the bible the third person is absent from the scene in this great culmination of God's holy plan for mankind.
Nowhere in the Bible do we even see any prayer, psalm, or hymn addressed to or dedicated to the third person-the Holy Ghost.
Nowhere do we see the Holy Ghost worshiped.
Yes, some scripture seem to describe the HS as engaging in personal activity but remember in the languages of bible times nonpersonal things were described in personal ways.
E.G. -Gen 4:10 - ' what have you done? the voice of your brother's BLOOD cries out to me from the ground"
Wisdom is described as speaking and being loved.
in Psalms the valleys shout for joy and sing and the rivers clap their hands
In Isaiah the gates of Jerusalem mourn.-and cedar trees talking and mountains singing.
in Romans 10:6 -righteousness is described as speaking.
None of these thing happen literally-it's figurative language.

If a man's hand takes hold of a book, like the Bible, and lifts it, we can say the man lifted the book. This does not make the hand a separate person. Nor does it mean that the hand is the man. The hand is merely part of, or an extension of, the man. and it is the agency through which the man is acting.
Similarly, the HS is the agency through which God, father or Son acts.
This is why Peter in Acts:5: 1-10 said Ananias and Sapphira " lied to the Holy spirit" and also they " lied ...to God". this doesn't mean the HS is God but rather that the HS, being the omnipresent agency through which god acts, is how God heard the lie.
I strongly believe the Spirit is not a third person of a trinity.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

No the door does not swing both ways. I have scriptural and historical evidence for anything I say. Christians believe the Bible. If you would rather believe anything anti=Christian you read online rather than the Bible that is not my problem.

Yes it does. You demand evidence to support claims, so others should be able to make the same demand of you. I am not attacking Christianity...remember that I too, am a Christian. I am just not traditional or orthodox. Can you prove any of your claims without the use of the Bible?

You said that Christians believe the Bible...yes, but to varying degrees. Many do not accept that the Bible is 100% literal. They view it as allegorical and metaphorical, depending on the verse.

So once again, let's pretend that I am highly skeptical and you are trying to prove to me that Jesus was resurrected. You quote your Bible verses, but then I ask for historical evidence to support the claim. Can you provide any?

 

[Der Alte]

Yes it does. You demand evidence to support claims, so others should be able to make the same demand of you. I am not attacking Christianity...remember that I too, am a Christian. I am just not traditional or orthodox. Can you prove any of your claims without the use of the Bible?

You said that Christians believe the Bible...yes, but to varying degrees. Many do not accept that the Bible is 100% literal. They view it as allegorical and metaphorical, depending on the verse.

So once again, let's pretend that I am highly skeptical and you are trying to prove to me that Jesus was resurrected. You quote your Bible verses, but then I ask for historical evidence to support the claim. Can you provide any?

Don't demand from me what you refuse to provide yourself. There is no such thing as varying degrees when it comes to the Bible.

Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37?-101?) mentions Jesus--Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus|Josephus a Jewish priest,wrote Antiquities | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus--Annals 15.44

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.​

 

[ChetSinger]

So once again, let's pretend that I am highly skeptical and you are trying to prove to me that Jesus was resurrected. You quote your Bible verses, but then I ask for historical evidence to support the claim. Can you provide any?

If you're a Christian of any type you already believe in the resurrection of Jesus. So I don't see value in this challenge.

 

[Der Alte]

This is my final statement on the Holy Spirit and then I want to show the pagan influences of christmas and the biblical proof Jesus was actually born in the autumn around late September and not on Dec. 25th.

There is no, zero, none Biblical evidence that Jesus was born in the autumn. There are scores of arguments that Jesus was born on different days. But that is all they are, arguments! Not proof.

the Holy Spirit:
The Bible most often refers to the Holy Spirit as God's divine power.
Jewish scholars examining the references to it in the OT scriptures have never referred the HS as anything but the power pf God, never as a distinct person.

The NEW Catholic Encyclopedia admits " The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person.....God's spirit is simply God's power. [The Holy Spirit is never called God's power! DA] if it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly ......the majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not some one. [False! DA] this is is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God." Vol 13, " Spirit of God " pp.574-576
The reference work A Catholic Dictionary acknowledges " On the whole the NT, like the OT, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power: [Only JW writings call the Holy Spirit, God's power! DA]
2004, " Trinity, Holy ' pg.827

Blatantly false! Where did you copy/paste this from? Atheists-я-us! I already addressed this fictional quote in my [post=66601842]post #17[/post] but you ignored it! Here it is again.

The doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning the Holy Ghost forms an integral part of her teaching on the mystery of the Holy Trinity, of which St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity I.3.5), speaking with diffidence, says: "In no other subject is the danger of erring so great, or the progress so difficult, or the fruit of a careful study so appreciable". The essential points of the dogma may be resumed in the following propositions:

The Holy Ghost is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Though really distinct, as a Person, from the Father and the Son, He is consubstantial with Them; being God like Them, He possesses with Them one and the same Divine Essence or Nature.
He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Ghost​

In visions of the Throne of God in the bible we see the Father and the Son, Jesus, standing at the right hand of God but no Holy Spirit. Acts 7:55-56
In Dan 7:9-14 - we see the Father and the Son but Daniel did not report seeing no third person.
and of course at the end of this world in Rev 21:1 we see the Father and the Son, but absent again in this last and final book of the bible the third person is absent from the scene in this great culmination of God's holy plan for mankind.
Nowhere in the Bible do we even see any prayer, psalm, or hymn addressed to or dedicated to the third person-the Holy Ghost.
Nowhere do we see the Holy Ghost worshiped.

Logical fallacy! Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Yes, some scripture seem to describe the HS as engaging in personal activity but remember in the languages of bible times nonpersonal things were described in personal ways.
E.G. -Gen 4:10 - ' what have you done? the voice of your brother's BLOOD cries out to me from the ground"
Wisdom is described as speaking and being loved.
in Psalms the valleys shout for joy and sing and the rivers clap their hands
In Isaiah the gates of Jerusalem mourn.-and cedar trees talking and mountains singing.
in Romans 10:6 -righteousness is described as speaking.
None of these thing happen literally-it's figurative language.

Irrelevant! In none of these examples does something inanimate have 72 personal attributes, including a distinct mind, self, and will, as does the Holy Spirit, See my [post=66601861]post #18[/post] this thread.

If a man's hand takes hold of a book, like the Bible, and lifts it, we can say the man lifted the book. This does not make the hand a separate person. Nor does it mean that the hand is the man. The hand is merely part of, or an extension of, the man. and it is the agency through which the man is acting.
Similarly, the HS is the agency through which God, father or Son acts.
This is why Peter in Acts:5: 1-10 said Ananias and Sapphira " lied to the Holy spirit" and also they " lied ...to God". this doesn't mean the HS is God but rather that the HS, being the omnipresent agency through which god acts, is how God heard the lie.
I strongly believe the Spirit is not a third person of a trinity.

What you strongly believe is not evidence. A man's hand does not have 72 personal characteristics, including a distince mind, self and will. See my [post=66601861]post #18[/post] this thread.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

If you're a Christian of any type you already believe in the resurrection of Jesus. So I don't see value in this challenge.

Not true, especially here in the UDD. There are numerous Christians that do not believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus. Many priests and clergymen from mainstream denominations have written such articles. To be a Christian means that you accept and follow Jesus' teachings. The rest of the beliefs are addons.

The challenge stands because you will be confronted with those that might have an interest in conversion into Christianity, but can't get over certain things that hold them back. If they say "I believe the Bible to mostly be allegorical and metaphorical" you had better be prepared to take it a step further and meet their challenge.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Hello, I am sure that I may not be too welcome here. I just wondered if anyone ever based their stand on the conduct of the religious leaders that were part of the founding of Trinity? A simple test would be how much did they obey Jesus' commands:

Turn the other cheek.
go the extra mile (walk another mile).
give to those who ask (like I didn't do to the needy person at Food Lion parking lot last week, and was deeply sad that I failed Jesus in this).
give a full measure.
do not let your left hand know what your right is giving (as in alms to God).
Pray quietly in the intermost closet your prayers to God.
Let your yes be yes and no be no, do not swear...
Jesus was telling us to be moral, yet loving and kind to all, especially to our enemies as well.
To not live for riches.
To not live by the sword.
To love one another as I have loved you.
To be known by your love for one another.
do not resist evil.
to share your hope to those who ask about it.
(to the question of which of the Jewish commandments were necessary for salvation, Jesus gave us five (or six) of the Ten Commandments)
be prepared for persecutions and endure them till the end, to not deny the Faith.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you (love them).
Love the Lord you God with all of your mind, heart and soul.
follow the straight and narrow road that leads to life (follow Jesus Christ).
Do not worry about food and clothing, for God loves you and will supply your needs, as he does to the sparrows or lilies of the valley.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Forgive others of there trespasses against you.
Love you enemies...do good to those who despise you...
seek a lower place, to be humble and accepting to God, not the higher places of honor.
Forgive 7 times 70 times (70 times 70, or always forgive, I would!) your brother (or neighbor whoever they are).
Ask of your Father in Heaven and he will give to you (being that it is in the will of God what you ask for and that you ask out of your love for God (and others))
Heal the sick and preach the Good News.
visit the sick brethren (neighbor) and those in prison, especially the least ones.
Baptize new believing followers of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


?????

 

[ChetSinger]

Not true, especially here in the UDD. There are numerous Christians that do not believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus. Many priests and clergymen from mainstream denominations have written such articles. To be a Christian means that you accept and follow Jesus' teachings. The rest of the beliefs are addons.

The challenge stands because you will be confronted with those that might have an interest in conversion into Christianity, but can't get over certain things that hold them back. If they say "I believe the Bible to mostly be allegorical and metaphorical" you had better be prepared to take it a step further and meet their challenge.

Do you believe in the resurrection of Christ?

 

[Der Alte]

Hello, I am sure that I may not be too welcome here. I just wondered if anyone ever based their stand on the conduct of the religious leaders that were part of the founding of Trinity? A simple test would be how much did they obey Jesus' commands: . . .

Substitute the word nontrinitarian and ask the same question. If you want the answer to this, read the writings of the early church fathers. Many of them were martyred for their faith.

 

[jacobs well]

Regarding pagan influences-we find that Christians today celebrate the holiday christmas because it is assumed it represents the birthday of Jesus.
There is evidence and clues in the bible that show that would not be true.

The christmas celebrations we observed predate Christianity by a couple of hundred years.
many ancient pagan nations created their own midwinter festivals-which later morphed into christmas- to honor the sun and other gods around the time of the winter solstice. the origins of christmas actually contradict Christianity.

A nativity celebration for pagan gods near the winter solstice was observed in both Syria and Egypt
The Mithraic religion provided the foundation for christmas celebration and many of those element enter the Roman catholic system.
The yule-log, the evergreen decorations, exchanging gifts, etc., all pagan -
The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.

did the Bible celebrate Christmas? -NO
do we find any command in the bible to celebrate Christ's birthday?-NO

We see God condemning pagan worship - Deut 12:29-32 on the other hand.

the middle of winter was clearly not the time Jesus was born.
Shepherds in the field watching their flocks-don't think so.
Roman census being held in the middle of winter-travel would be more restricted and colder with rain and snow-self-defeating wouldn't you say?
And john the baptist was born in late March and the bible says jesus was born six months after John the baptist-His cousin-Luke 1:35-36 -that would put Jesus's birthday in late September

Some people will say " rubbish ' and " false and nonsense " but you decide whether any of this is true-it's all in the bible and can be easily researched under the " origins of christmas " in any encyclopedia or legit web source

See what you find out and compare it to what we celebrate today.

God has His Holydays we should be observing
True Christians celebrate God's festivals not the traditions of men especially those of pagan roots.

 

[Der Alte]

Regarding pagan influences-we find that Christians today celebrate the holiday christmas because it is assumed it represents the birthday of Jesus.
There is evidence and clues in the bible that show that would not be true.

There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25.

The christmas celebrations we observed predate Christianity by a couple of hundred years.

Rubbish!

many ancient pagan nations created their own midwinter festivals-which later morphed into christmas- to honor the sun and other gods around the time of the winter solstice. the origins of christmas actually contradict Christianity.

No, zero, none evidence for this!

A nativity celebration for pagan gods near the winter solstice was observed in both Syria and Egypt

Nonsense!

The Mithraic religion provided the foundation for christmas celebration and many of those element enter the Roman catholic system.

Total fabrication. The Mithraic cult left no written records of their beliefs and practices. Virtually nothing is known about them.

The yule-log, the evergreen decorations, exchanging gifts, etc., all pagan -
The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.

Secular practices associated with Christmas are irrelevant!

did the Bible celebrate Christmas? -NO
do we find any command in the bible to celebrate Christ's birthday?-NO

Irrelevant and irrelevant! Logical fallacy argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Is the word Bible in the scriptures? No!

We see God condemning pagan worship - Deut 12:29-32 on the other hand.

Observing the birth of Jesus is not pagan worship!

the middle of winter was clearly not the time Jesus was born.
Shepherds in the field watching their flocks-don't think so.
Roman census being held in the middle of winter-travel would be more restricted and colder with rain and snow-self-defeating wouldn't you say?

The Romans did not care how hard it was on people when they demanded taxes! The temple sheep were out in the fields year around. See below.

And john the baptist was born in late March and the bible says jesus was born six months after John the baptist-His cousin-Luke 1:35-36 -that would put Jesus's birthday in late September

Produce your evidence.

Some people will say " rubbish ' and " false and nonsense " but you decide whether any of this is true-it's all in the bible and can be easily researched under the " origins of christmas " in any encyclopedia or legit web source

If it is so easy why haven't you done that research? Instead of copy/pasting anti-Christian arguments from anonymous websites?

See what you find out and compare it to what we celebrate today.

God has His Holydays we should be observing
True Christians celebrate God's festivals not the traditions of men especially those of pagan roots.

Let me know when you do some legitimate research? The observance of Jesus' birth is not and has never been pagan.

The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah: Appendix VII On The Date Of The Nativity Of Our Lord

Thus the death of Herod must have taken place between the 12th of March and the 12th of April, or, say, about the end of March (comp. Ant. xvii. 8. 1). Again, the Gospel-history necessitates an interval of, at the least, seven or eight weeks before that date for the birth of Christ (we have to insert the purification of the Virgin, at the earliest, six weeks after the Birth, The Visit of the Magi, and the murder of the children at Bethlehem, and, at any rate, some days more before the death of Herod). Thus the Birth of Christ could not have possibly occurred after the beginning of February 4 B.C., and most likely several weeks earlier. This brings us close to the ecclesiastical date, the 25th of December, in confirmation of which we refer to what has been stated in vol. i. p. 187, see especially note 3.
...
And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, [1 In the curious story of His birth, related in the Jer. Talmud (Ber. ii. 3), He is said to have been born in 'the royal castle of Bethlehem;' while in the parallel narrative in the Midr. on Lament. i. 16, ed. W. p. 64 b) the somewhat mysterious expression is used But we must keep in view the Rabbinic statement that, even if a castle falls down, it is still called a castle (Yalkut, vol. ii. p. 60 b).] was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, 'the tower of the flock.' [a Targum Pseudo-Jon. on Gen. xxxv 21.]

This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [b Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, [2 In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the wilderness, and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).] and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,

The same Mishnaic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover, that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.​

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Substitute the word nontrinitarian and ask the same question. If you want the answer to this, read the writings of the early church fathers. Many of them were martyred for their faith.

I agree, God isn't biased. The founder of Jesus' faith is Jesus, his character is perfect and so his true followers have set their hearts and spirit with him alone. Paul didn't murder another man (yet Saul did), nor did Peter, nor did John, nor did Mark, nor did Matthews, nor did a zillion other true followers of Christ, but those who murdered other Christians (thinking they are doing God's will) are against the teachings and commands of Christ. I guess that Christians are in three categories: 1) Saints 2) regulars but obedient 3) Cardinal ones, who may occasionally murder others (especially Christians). Which one should you trust as your leader? Saints are rare, but they are all around. If you just haven't visited them when they are sick, imprisoned, hungry, naked, poor or wretched then you don't know them. They are Jesus, for he told you so. Why won't some Christians obey Jesus, because they must be the tares and not of the seed of God.

 

[Anto9us]

"the religious leaders that were part of the founding of Trinity"

And who would those be?

Tertullian? Athanasius? The Cappadocians?

When was the Trinity "founded"?

Where is the evidence for the identity of these men and their alleged non-compliance with the teachings of Jesus?

And please don't say "It's all Constantine's doing" - even Tom Hanks' character in Da Vinci Code explained that to the older guy.

So what are their names -- these "Trinity-Creators" who didn't obey Jesus?

Give historical references for their status as "founders of Trinity" and their "disobedience to Jesus", please.