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jacobs well

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Hello jacobs well!

To me, the personhood of the Holy Spirit is obvious in a couple of places. One is Jesus' command to baptize:


Here, Jesus links them all together in a way that is sufficient for me to elevate the Holy Spirit to the level of the Father and the Son.

Another is here, in Acts 13:


What I gather from this is that:
  • The Holy Spirit speaks.
  • The Holy Spirit refers to himself as 'me'.
  • The Holy Spirit called Barnabas and Saul for work.
These passages are among those which convince me that the church has been correct to conclude that the Holy Spirit is sentient, and is part of the divine along with the Father and the Son.

The expression of " in the name of " denotes in recognition of the authority of - W.E. Vine dictionary of NT words.
Baptism is performed in recognition of the Father's authority, administered by the Son, and confirmed by the reception of the Holy Spirit, the power of God.
The indwelling of God's influence is the life-changing Holy Spirit He imparts to you.

In acts 13:2- the Holy Spirit speaks and commands-the HS is presented with the attributes of Humans so we can understand in our way what God is conveying to us.
The HS comforts, and other personal things-these are examples of personification in the bible.
the Holy spirit or power of God is even referred to as a " she " in some scripture. Proverbs 8
But we know the " She " mentioned in this scripture refers to the wisdom and power of God, even though it is presented as a person.
 
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ChetSinger

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The expression of " in the name of " denotes in recognition of the authority of - W.E. Vine dictionary of NT words.
Baptism is performed in recognition of the Father's authority, administered by the Son, and confirmed by the reception of the Holy Spirit, the power of God.
The indwelling of God's influence is the life-changing Holy Spirit He imparts to you.
Well then, according to W.E. Vine's definition as provided by you, we are baptized "in recognition of the authority of" the Holy Spirit. Cool! :thumbsup:

In acts 13:2- the Holy Spirit speaks and commands-the HS is presented with the attributes of Humans so we can understand in our way what God is conveying to us.
The HS comforts, and other personal things-this is examples of personification in the bible.
Yes, the Holy Spirit comforts us. But he also speaks to us, too. If not, who did speak in Acts 13? I mean, somebody did. With real words, too.

the Holy spirit or power of God is even referred to as a " she " in some scripture. Proverbs 8
But we know the " She " mentioned in this scripture refers the the wisdom and power of God, even though it is presented as a person.
I've read a lot of material where the Wisdom of God is commonly believed to Jesus. There are numerous examples where Jesus takes on attributes of God's Wisdom as described in the Old Testament and in intertestamental Jewish Wisdom literature. Here's an exposition on the subject.
 
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jacobs well

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The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11.
Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15.
Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity


The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual extension of God's characteristics and power and exhibits itself as human activities and personalities. All scriptures showing the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God the Father.

If the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and conceived a son and if the Holy Spirit is fully God in all respects then Jesus would be the Son of the Holy Spirit. Yet Jesus continually said He was the Son of the Father.
He never called the Holy Ghost His father
Why didn't Jesus mention a trinity or three in one anywhere in the NT seeing as, as you say, He was part of it as the second person?
 
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RDKirk

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The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual extension of God's characteristics and power and exhibits itself as human activities and personalities. All scriptures showing the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God the Father.

If the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and conceived a son and if the Holy Spirit is fully God in all respects then Jesus would be the Son of the Holy Spirit. Yet Jesus continually said He was the Son of the Father.
He never called the Holy Ghost His father
Why didn't Jesus mention a trinity or three in one anywhere in the NT seeing as, as you say, He was part of it as the second person?

Wait, you are carrying a Christian icon, but what do you actually believe? Let's discuss your actual beliefs for a bit.
 
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Der Alte

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The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual extension of God's characteristics and power and exhibits itself as human activities and personalities. All scriptures showing the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God the Father.

You ignored the 90+ scripture I referenced and simply repeated your empty assertion.

If the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and conceived a son and if the Holy Spirit is fully God in all respects then Jesus would be the Son of the Holy Spirit. Yet Jesus continually said He was the Son of the Father.
He never called the Holy Ghost His father

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.​

Two persons acting and two separate actions.

First person-Holy Ghost First action- come upon Mary.

Second person- the Highest- Second action-overshadowed Mary.

Result- shall be called the Son of God.

Why didn't Jesus mention a trinity or three in one anywhere in the NT seeing as, as you say, He was part of it as the second person?

Why didn't Jesus mention a Trinity or claim that He was God? What happened when He only said He was the Son of God?
 
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Colter

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You ignored the 90+ scripture I referenced and simply repeated your empty assertion.



Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.​

Two persons acting and two separate actions.

First person-Holy Ghost First action- come upon Mary.

Second person- the Highest- Second action-overshadowed Mary.

Result- shall be called the Son of God.



Why didn't Jesus mention a Trinity or claim that He was God? What happened when He only said He was the Son of God?

* Jesus specifically told his apostles NOT to reveal his identity until after he left.

* On the occasion of Peters confession, Jesus explained that the Father within bore witness to the identity of the Son (that this faith based recognition was the "rock" upon which Jesus would build his spiritual kingdom going forward). This presence of the Fathers spirit in the heart of the believer would continue to bear witness to the truth-recognition of the Son.....the Son also being present now in spirit with the Father. The Spirit if Truth then is the conviction of truth.

* As was the case with so many mind expanding revelations occurring among the followers of the Son of Man while he was on the earth, it's not clear that the apostles really understood the significance of all that Jesus said and did, the implications of his statements relative to his identity, his eternal past, present and future. So much of what we have come to realize and perhaps speculate on was in hindsight.

* We are the grandchildren of the Universal Father. Jesus, aka Christ, is our creator, he incarnate on the earth for the purpose of achieving unquestioned sovereignty of his own created worlds in accordance with the will of the Universal Father.

* Christ returned to his rightful place in heaven with all power and authority at his disposal.
 
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jacobs well

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You ignored the 90+ scripture I referenced and simply repeated your empty assertion.



Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.​

Two persons acting and two separate actions.

First person-Holy Ghost First action- come upon Mary.

Second person- the Highest- Second action-overshadowed Mary.

Result- shall be called the Son of God.



Why didn't Jesus mention a Trinity or claim that He was God? What happened when He only said He was the Son of God?

Hello-i said all scripture that included your 90 plus

the angel said -the Holy spirit shall come upon thee, he then said the power of the Highest (the Father) shall overshadow thee.
these two statements are two ways of saying the same thing.
The Holy Spirit that came upon Mary is the power of God.

Jesus was only the Son of God.
Why didn't he ever mention the trinity?
 
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Der Alte

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Hello-i said all scripture that included your 90 plus

the angel said -the Holy spirit shall come upon thee, he then said the power of the Highest (the Father) shall overshadow thee.
these two statements are two ways of saying the same thing.
The Holy Spirit that came upon Mary is the power of God.

Jesus was only the Son of God.
Why didn't he ever mention the trinity?

Wrong! You made a grammatical assertion but you did not support it. Are you familiar with the Granville Sharp Rule? When two or more nouns or substantives are joined with the copulative, kai, i.e. "and," and only the first has the definite article both substantives refer to the same person. But when both substantives have the definite article they refer to different persons. The Holy Spirit is never called "the power of God."

I said you ignored the 90+ scripture I posted and you did. Simply saying "All scriptures showing the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God the Father." does note even begin to address the verses I referenced. See e.g.

Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13

The Jews and Greeks who read the scriptures would not have understood "the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God" That is a modern concept devised by various unorthodox groups to make scripture support thier false teachings.
 
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jacobs well

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Wait, you are carrying a Christian icon, but what do you actually believe? Let's discuss your actual beliefs for a bit.


Well concerning this issue I, as a Christian, believe in God. And that He is eternal, all-powerful, and the supreme creator and sustainer of the entire universe. I believe God is one, composed of spirit and comprising a family consisting of the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. As the second member of the God family, He has existed throughout eternity as the " Word ". He is the Savior of all mankind and is now our High Priest. Jesus shall return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth and shall rule as King of Kings with His saints forever.
The Holy spirit is the essence, power, mind, and presence of God.
God begets Christians as His sons and daughters through this Spiritual extension. it strengthens a Christian spiritually. converts his mind, and serves as a guarantee of eternal life.
 
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James Is Back

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Well concerning this issue I, as a Christian, believe in God. And that He is eternal, all-powerful, and the supreme creator and sustainer of the entire universe. I believe God is one, composed of spirit and comprising a family consisting of the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. As the second member of the God family, He has existed throughout eternity as the " Word ". He is the Savior of all mankind and is now our High Priest. Jesus shall return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth and shall rule as King of Kings with His saints forever.
The Holy spirit is the essence, power, mind, and presence of God.
God begets Christians as His sons and daughters through this Spiritual extension. it strengthens a Christian spiritually. converts his mind, and serves as a guarantee of eternal life.

So you're a Binitarian?
 
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Der Alte

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Well concerning this issue I, as a Christian, believe in God. And that He is eternal, all-powerful, and the supreme creator and sustainer of the entire universe. I believe God is one, composed of spirit and comprising a family consisting of the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. As the second member of the God family, He has existed throughout eternity as the " Word ". He is the Savior of all mankind and is now our High Priest. Jesus shall return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth and shall rule as King of Kings with His saints forever.
The Holy spirit is the essence, power, mind, and presence of God.
God begets Christians as His sons and daughters through this Spiritual extension. it strengthens a Christian spiritually. converts his mind, and serves as a guarantee of eternal life.

Unscriptural concepts highlighted in red. Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]
 
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Der Alte

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3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.
 
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Vanguard PCD

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Yes, Judaism and Christianity had pagan influences. Forget the Bible and what you learned in Sunday School for a moment. If you look at ancient history, only a blind fool would argue against pagan influences. December 25, anyone?

Ancient man was nomadic. Ancient empires were the centers of trade and civilization. Babylon and Egypt were especially influential toward the greater Mediterranean region. Cultures blended, stories merged, different mythologies developed from central themes.

Fundamentalist Christians will WANT their stories to be unique and literal. They will deny and reject any claims that the biblical stories have pagan roots. The basis of their faith and/or religion hinge on it. Unfortunately, many of them have been duped by non-biblical tradition, false teachings and a poor understanding of the ancient world.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, Judaism and Christianity had pagan influences. Forget the Bible and what you learned in Sunday School for a moment. If you look at ancient history, only a blind fool would argue against pagan influences. December 25, anyone?

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that any pagan society observed anything at all connected with December 25? I don't mean the standard copy/paste from some atheists-я-us.com® clone.

Ancient man was nomadic. Ancient empires were the centers of trade and civilization. Babylon and Egypt were especially influential toward the greater Mediterranean region. Cultures blended, stories merged, different mythologies developed from central themes.

This might be true of pagan cultures. But not Christianity.

Fundamentalist Christians will WANT their stories to be unique and literal.

Got any any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that any Christian belief/practice is copied from any pagan belief/practice? Similarity does not equal derivation.

They will deny and reject any claims that the biblical stories have pagan roots. [Right! DA] The basis of their faith and/or religion hinge on it. [Absolutely false! DA] Unfortunately, many of them have been duped by non-biblical tradition, false teachings and a poor understanding of the ancient world.

Rubbish! Produce your evidence?
 
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ChetSinger

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Yes, Judaism and Christianity had pagan influences. Forget the Bible and what you learned in Sunday School for a moment. If you look at ancient history, only a blind fool would argue against pagan influences. December 25, anyone?
Hello! The choice of Dec 25 is an interesting one. If you're interested, here's a long discussion of it. I think the subject is fascinating reading.

It's not at all clear who borrowed from who. But even if Christians did appropriate the day (moving the nativity from Jan 6 to Dec 25, according to some), what's wrong with that? It's not as if the two religions were going to be confused with each other. Rather, it's an exercise in domination. Here are some other examples:

  1. English Christians borrowed tunes from popular songs and gave them Christian lyrics.
  2. Christians buried Mithraic gathering places and built churches on top of them.
  3. Christian-produced rap music.
 
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jacobs well

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Wrong! You made a grammatical assertion but you did not support it. Are you familiar with the Granville Sharp Rule? When two or more nouns or substantives are joined with the copulative, kai, i.e. "and," and only the first has the definite article both substantives refer to the same person. But when both substantives have the definite article they refer to different persons. The Holy Spirit is never called "the power of God."

I said you ignored the 90+ scripture I posted and you did. Simply saying "All scriptures showing the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God the Father." does note even begin to address the verses I referenced. See e.g.

Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13

The Jews and Greeks who read the scriptures would not have understood "the Holy Spirit in action is because it flows from God" That is a modern concept devised by various unorthodox groups to make scripture support thier false teachings.

To paraphrase you " Nonsense ".
the Jews, the Israelites in the Old testament were the first to experience the Power of God by His Spirit by numerous signs and miracles. The Jews understood one God only that executed His power by His spiritual actions
The Exodus, the Ten commandments, the battles toward the promised land, etc.
Scripture speaks of the Power of God -Luke 9:43 Yet Jesus called God "Power" -Matthew 26:64 - does this mean that " power of God" means "power of Power"?
therefore we may define the Holy spirit as the "power of God"
the holy Spirit is equated with the" power of the Highest
Jesus was speaking of the Holy spirit when he said that his disciples ' would be endued with power from on High -luke 24:49
In 2Tim 1:6,7 Paul equated the Holy Spirit with the spirit of Power.....".

according to Trinitarians the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are equal but scripture shows us that the father and Son are never ranked equal in the NT.
Where does the HS fit into the Godhead then?

the Spirit of God has no existence apart from God.
God's Spirit is God acting.

Paul refers to God and Christ as the source of the spirit.
This is an update from earlier posts that after further review Paul definitely ignores the Holy Spirit . in seventeen epistles opening with an invocation of grace and peace, thirteen attribute these to God and Christ. In one other only is the HS mentioned and there as the means only of sanctification, not the source of grace,
and in the thanksgiving or blessing of eleven epistles which follow the opening salutations not even one mentions the Holy Spirit. Paul understood, despite the use of personal attributes, the HS represents the power and presence of God.
the Holy spirit is not a person but rather the working of the mind and power of God as He deals with His creation.
In psalms 139:7 -" where shall I go from thy Spirit or where shall I flee from thy presence?"
All the scriptures presented in these posts by everyone only shows
The Holy Spirit instructs, He speaks,He reveals,He inspires, He directs,He dwells in us, etc.
God's Spirit is the mind of God that works to fulfill his plan in the lives of mankind.
We need to repent, and be baptized and then you shall receive the gift of the Holy spirit-acts 2:38-39 -the power of God now residing in us. we become the temple of God's Spirit.-1Cor 6:19
the Christian is the habitation of God through the Holy spirit.
 
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jacobs well

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Let's look at Christmas. It's basically a pagan holiday, with all its traditions that Christianity has adopted.
Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25-there is biblical evidence. But many pagan gods and celebrations were idolized around Dec 25
the birth of Jesus is in the bible, but not Christmas, that is a tradition of men steeped in paganism.
History shows Christmas predates Christ by many centuries.
Why did the early Catholic church adopt such a pagan holiday?
The New testament did not celebrate Christmas
Does Christmas really honor Christ?

What is your view on all this?
 
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RDKirk

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Let's look at Christmas. It's basically a pagan holiday, with all its traditions that Christianity has adopted.
Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25-there is biblical evidence. But many pagan gods and celebrations were idolized around Dec 25
the birth of Jesus is in the bible, but not Christmas, that is a tradition of men steeped in paganism.
History shows Christmas predates Christ by many centuries.
Why did the early Catholic church adopt such a pagan holiday?
The New testament did not celebrate Christmas
Does Christmas really honor Christ?

What is your view on all this?

Christmas has nothing to do with your OP, and the whole tangent about Christmas has nothing to do with your OP. Your OP stated:

To begin with, many who believe in the trinity concept are surprised to learn that the idea of divine beings existing as trinities long predated Christianity.

As my grandfather said, "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then."

The fact that ancient pagan religions may have stumbled on concepts like "son of God" (Herculese and others) and even the concept of a triumvirate of gods (Three seems like a nice logical figure for a number of reasons) and even the idea of a 7-day week (a day for each of the celestial objects visible by the naked eye that appear to move volitionally) does not mean that God did not originate the concept.

God did not say, "Oh me! Those pagan Romans just thought of the concept of 'triumvirate' so I have to think of something different now!"

As has been demonstrated, the concept of "three Persons of one Substance" is totally discernible in scripture--sola scriptura. It's there without reference to anything else.

Now, if your argument is really that scripture itself is a result of pagan influence...that's a 'way different argument that demolishes scripture entirely and leaves you with no basis for a belief in any kind of Christ at all.
 
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Der Alte

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To paraphrase you " Nonsense ".
the Jews, the Israelites in the Old testament were the first to experience the Power of God by His Spirit by numerous signs and miracles. The Jews understood one God only that executed His power by His spiritual actions
The Exodus, the Ten commandments, the battles toward the promised land, etc.
Scripture speaks of the Power of God -Luke 9:43 Yet Jesus called God "Power" -Matthew 26:64 - does this mean that " power of God" means "power of Power"?

None of this addresses my post and the 90+ scriptures, 72 personal atrtributes of the Hoy Spirit I listed. You try to make the Holy Spirit the power of God then object when it doesn't fit your assumptions. That is not my problem.

therefore we may define the Holy spirit as the "power of God"

How you choose to define something does not make it so.

the holy Spirit is equated with the" power of the Highest
Jesus was speaking of the Holy spirit when he said that his disciples ' would be endued with power from on High -luke 24:49

Asserting that does not make it so.

In 2Tim 1:6,7 Paul equated the Holy Spirit with the spirit of Power.....".

No He didn't unless He also equated the Holy Spirit with love and a sound mind. "a spirit" is not "the Spirit."

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.​

according to Trinitarians the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are equal but scripture shows us that the father and Son are never ranked equal in the NT.
Where does the HS fit into the Godhead then?

The Holy Spirit has all the attributes of God including a distinct self, will, and mind.

the Spirit of God has no existence apart from God.
God's Spirit is God acting.

Repeating an assertion does not make it true. The Son has no existence apart from God.

Paul refers to God and Christ as the source of the spirit.

See the four passages of scripture I quoted above which equate the Holy Spirit with God.

This is an update from earlier posts that after further review Paul definitely ignores the Holy Spirit . in seventeen epistles opening with an invocation of grace and peace, thirteen attribute these to God and Christ. In one other only is the HS mentioned and there as the means only of sanctification, not the source of grace,

Irrelevant! You first claimed that the Holy Spirit was not mentioned in any of the salutations. Now after I proved that wrong you are waffling trying to make it about something else.

and in the thanksgiving or blessing of eleven epistles which follow the opening salutations not even one mentions the Holy Spirit. Paul understood, despite the use of personal attributes, the HS represents the power and presence of God.

Irrelevant! Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Paul understood no such thing since he never made any statement to that effect. The holy Spirit is a person with at least 72 personal characteristics, including a distinct self, will and mind. An impersonal "power" does not have a mind, self, or will, does not speak, etc.

the Holy spirit is not a person but rather the working of the mind and power of God as He deals with His creation.
In psalms 139:7 -" where shall I go from thy Spirit or where shall I flee from thy presence?"
All the scriptures presented in these posts by everyone only shows
The Holy Spirit instructs, He speaks,He reveals,He inspires, He directs,He dwells in us, etc. [That's what I have been saying! DA]
God's Spirit is the mind of God that works to fulfill his plan in the lives of mankind. [The Holy Spirit has a distinct mind! DA]
We need to repent, and be baptized and then you shall receive the gift of the Holy spirit-acts 2:38-39 -the power of God now residing in us. we become the temple of God's Spirit.-1Cor 6:19
the Christian is the habitation of God through the Holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
 
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Unscriptural concepts highlighted in red. Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]

We agree on something.:thumbsup:
 
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