Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[The Liturgist]

Recently, in another thread in the main Eastern Orthodox forum, I inadvertently made the debate a bit heated by making a stupid, crass and emotionally charged reply of a disparaging nature about Praise and Worship music. To be precise, I called it “trash” and in so doing through negligence caused offense to our friend @Jesse Dornfeld , and caused a bit of a polemical argument that detracted from the quality of the discussion. I also managed to make our community look bad by negligently making an insensitive remark and hurting the feelings of a friendly inquirer.

That said, most Orthodox Christians do positively reject praise and worship music. Conversely, Jesse Dornfield expressed important ideas that I feel deserve to be replied to in the freedom of St. Justin’s Corner by himself and ourselves, in the format of a polite debate, and Jesse, unlike myself, does not seem prone to embarrassing and insensitive outbursts, but humiliated as I am by my indiscretion, I wish to discuss this issue with himself or anyone else who particularly likes praise and worship music, and to share Orthodox music with them so they understand the extent to which our music is emotional, and so that we can come to a mutually edifying place of understanding.

Thus, it is my belief that praise and worship music is inappropriate in the Orthodox Church for the reasons stated by @Psalti Chrysostom and others in the thread in the main Ancient Way forum. However, I do feel that our music does have an emotional quality.

Also I do wish that, without changing our musical styles or introducing praise and worship music, we could improve the quality of the chant used in the celebration of the First, Third, Sixth and Ninth Hours, especially the Third and Sixth hour before a Divine Liturgy, as these often feel rushed. I like the slower methodical pace the Russian Old Rite Orthodox at the Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania use when singing the hours.

Lastly, I am curious if our friend @JESSE Dornfield is aware that all services in the Orthodox Church are sung. We do not have any said services or silent services, and indeed nearly everything in the divine liturgy is intoned musically. For example, our priests do not read the Gospel, but sing it. And I feel that the manner in which the Gospel is sung is more emotionally moving than merely hearing it be read.

 

[The Liturgist]

Additonally @JESSE Dornfield also expressed concern about formallities in the other thread, by which I think he is referring to aspects of our liturgical prayer and what we call Holy Tradition. So Jesse, if you could share with us those specific practices I and others have mentioned that you regard as formalities and find concerning, and Pharisaical, I would love to discuss that with you. Very few people are ever interested in a serious debate about Orthodoxy, and you present this; most of the time when I engage in a debate on this forum I find myself defending Roman Catholics from attacks against aspects of their faith which happen to correspond to Orthodoxy, but we have substantial disagreements with the Catholics about a number of subjects.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I have heard Orthodox Chants. I know what they sound like. That does not move me to prefer them over contemporary styles of worship music.

What matters in worship is the heart. In some cultures, Orthodox chants are just not going to fly. Now, maybe that would mean you would have to change the culture of these societies. But I would advise against such things.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don’t think the Orthodox Church is Pharisaical however, because we are not a legalistic church. We don’t even call our canons “canon laws” like the Roman Catholics, and there is no such thing as an Orthodox canon lawyer. Rather, the literal meaning of canon in Greek is “guideline” and thats what ours are; our bishops have the ability to interpret them, apply them strictly, apply them loosely, or not apply them at all, depending on what is deemed best for the salvation of our souls. Insofar as we do have canons, furthermore, we do not have very many, particularly compared to the RCC, which has both a Code of Canon Law and a Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches, and they are on fairly common sense issues. For example, a priest cannot manage the financial affairs of a member of his congregation, because this would create a huge opportunity for fraud and abuse. That canon, which is one that is more strictly enforced, dates from the 7th century. However, there is a priest in the US who works as a financial advisor, he just does not manage the finances of his own parishioners.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

and Pharisaical

I didn't say that.

However, I think being overly formal is definitely NOT what Christ Himself was about. He almost went out of His way not to be formal with people. He was a man just like anyone else. Yes, He was also God, obviously, but he was not drowned in liturgy to the point he couldn't talk normally with people. He picked 12 different men all from different backgrounds so His message had to appeal to a wide audience. He used the common tongue in a general way. One example of this is the parable (if it was a parable, I am not so sure) where the tax collector says, in a rather informal way, "Have mercy on me, a sinner." Long story short, God doesn't care how you do it as long as you do it for Him.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have heard Orthodox Chants. I know what they sound like. That does not move me to prefer them over contemporary styles of worship music.

What matters in worship is the heart. In some cultures, Orthodox chants are just not going to fly. Now, maybe that would mean you would have to change the culture of these societies. But I would advise against such things.

Well, the Orthodox Church believes in inculturation, and for this reason, our music is different depending on the nationality of the church. For example, Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox music sounds very different from Greek Orthodox music; among the Greek Orthodox there exists a rare practice of three part harmony, but it is extremely rare, however, three part harmony or triphonal music is standard in the Georgian Orthodox Church.

In Africa, the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is an Oriental Orthodox Church (the Oriental Orthodox are very similar to the Eastern Orthodox and I am an outspoken advocate of reunion of the two churches) has very successful missions in Sub-Saharan Africa, in Tanzania and elsewhere, which use music based on the traditional music of the indigenous people. Likewise, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orhtodox Church, which used to be part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, has its own musical tradition which is derived from that of Ethiopian Judaism, and also uses a different liturgy, with the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayers, being of Syrian origin.

In Eastern Orthodoxy we see a similar pattern in Western Europe and North America among the Greek Orthodox, where Tikey Zes and Michaelides sought to compose four part harmony similar to Russian, Ukrainian and Western church music, and that of Tikey Zes also makes use of the organ. Organs have a long and complex history in the Orthodox Church, in that they have been used for centuries on the Ionian Islands, due to Venetian influence, and the organ was originally a Greek invention, and there was indeed an organ at the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, but it was not used to accompany the liturgy, but rather was installed in the Narthex, or vestibule, where it would be played to prepare the people waiting to enter the Nave, the central part of the church, for worship, in an engaging manner. The music in Hagia Sophia was spectacular, consisting of the Psalms and Evangelical Canticles sung by a massive choir, using a different liturgy than the rest of the church.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I feel like you just want to convince me that the Orthodox have all the answers.

I appreciate the education, but I think you've focused too much on making me Orthodox or some such.

 

[The Liturgist]

I didn't say that.

However, I think being overly formal is definitely NOT what Christ Himself was about. He almost went out of His way not to be formal with people. He was a man just like anyone else. Yes, He was also God, obviously, but he was not drowned in liturgy to the point he couldn't talk normally with people. He picked 12 different men all from different backgrounds so His message had to appeal to a wide audience. He used the common tongue in a general way. One example of this is the parable (if it was a parable, I am not so sure) where the tax collector says, in a rather informal way, "Have mercy on me, a sinner." Long story short, God doesn't care how you do it as long as you do it for Him.

Well let me first address the tax collector. His prayer is the basis for one of our central prayers, which in some monasteries is said in place of the formal liturgies, called the Jesus Prayer. “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner” or some variation of this. For example, “Lord Jesus, Have Mercy” or even “Kyrie eleison” or alternately longer versions. But we try to pray this prayer as much as possible, many, myself included, praying it constantly.

However, regarding the formality, there is a historical basis for it, and it dates back to the first century, to the Apostles themselves, specifically, an ancient church order called the Didache, which established the basis for Christian services. Christians originally worshipped in synagogues, like Jesus Christ did, and when we were kicked out of the synagogues, we kept in place some of their practices, such as thrice daily prayer. At the same time, other things changed. For example, the Jews fasted on Tuesday and Thursday, so the early church fasted on Wednesday and Friday, to commemorate the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ our God. Like the Jews, we used written prayers, and many early liturgical texts survive, some of which are believed to have been in use in the first century, and the oldest manuscript we have of a liturgy currently used by the Orthodox Church dates from the second century.

 

[The Liturgist]

I feel like you just want to convince me that the Orthodox have all the answers.

I appreciate the education, but I think you've focused too much on making me Orthodox or some such.

That’s not the case, I can assure you. If you are a baptized Christian who accepts the Nicene Creed, that’s enough as far as I’m concerned. It’s also the case that I myself love all of the traditional churches greatly, such as the Anglican church. Many Orthodox Christians do not believe that Anglican, Catholic or Lutheran or traditional Methodist sacraments are efficacious, but I do. I was baptized in a Protestant church and I have complete confidence in my baptism, and furthermore the reason why I believe the Orthodox doctrine that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of our Lord is because of the experiences I had in the Protestant church.

Rather, I just want to try to clarify some of these issues.

I have to confess I have mixed feelings about the non-denominational churches because the doctrine can vary quite a bit between them, and I personally feel more comfortable in a denominational church. However, if a non denominational church wanted to set up traditional worship to try to attract a wider audience, I would help them do it without hesitation. Because what I like about non-denominational churches is they tend to not have capitulated to the world on the issues of homosexuality or abortion or in most cases, female clergy, all of which I am opposed to.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Well let me first address the tax collector. His prayer is the basis for one of our central prayers, which in some monasteries is said in place of the formal liturgies, called the Jesus Prayer. “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner” or some variation of this. For example, “Lord Jesus, Have Mercy” or even “Kyrie eleison” or alternately longer versions. But we try to pray this prayer as much as possible, many, myself included, praying it constantly.

I'm aware. You've missed the point of what I said, though. There is no power in the words themselves. So even if you want to allow for "culturally specific" versions of the same words, it's not about the words themselves.

In fact, you really don't need to vocalize anything at all. Not in your head, and not out loud. It's about the heart. The posture of the heart is what is important and this can be done whether words are spoken or not.

 

[The Liturgist]

I suppose you could say I am a member of the Orthodox Church for many the same reasons you are might be a member of the non-denominational church you belong to, in that I like the worship, I believe our worship is apostolic in nature, I really like the music, as should be obvious, and Orthodoxy helps me struggle against those temptations I am most prone to, specifically my hot temper, my laziness, my gluttony, and other issues. And also I can rest assured knowing we will never perform a gay marriage or endorse abortion or have a female priest or bishop (because that would violate the instruction of the Holy Apostle Paul concerning women in positions of authority). Conversely I have defended a female Anglican priest on this forum who I do believe has a vocation from some very mean spirited attacks.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm aware. You've missed the point of what I said, though. There is no power in the words themselves. So even if you want to allow for "culturally specific" versions of the same words, it's not about the words themselves.

In fact, you really don't need to vocalize anything at all. Not in your head, and not out loud. It's about the heart. The posture of the heart is what is important and this can be done whether words are spoken or not.

There is a practice in Orthodox called Hesychasm, the goal of which is to attain “the unceasing prayer of the heart.” It is pursued by some laity and by some monastics, but only under supervision. The idea is that if you pray the Jesus Prayer continually, eventually you will pray it without thinking about it. Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt do the same thing, but with the Psalms.

However, with our services, we believe in singing everything, but the liturgical services aren’t the extent of our prayer, since silence is also highly valued. I have wanted to attend a Quaker meeting to see what its like, because some aspects of their practice of waiting worship remind me of Hesychasm.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I have wanted to attend a Quaker meeting to see what its like, because some aspects of their practice of waiting worship remind me of Hesychasm.

I also practice this sort of thing. Basically, it's what you describe: Just waiting on the Lord in silence. I think this is pretty common for a lot of denominations of Christianity - even the dreaded Evangelical church.

 

[The Liturgist]

What matters in worship is the heart. In some cultures, Orthodox chants are just not going to fly. Now, maybe that would mean you would have to change the culture of these societies. But I would advise against such things.

I wanted to add, the Orthodox have always translated our liturgies into the local languages. In the case of the Slavic peoples, St. Cyril invented an alphabet as their language lacked one, known as Cyrillic, so that the Bible and our prayer books and hymnals could be written in Church Slavonic, which was a Slavic dialect that was close enough to the various Slavic languages that everyone could understand it, at the time. Since that time, some of the Slavic Orthodox people have had trouble understanding Church Slavonic because of the drift in languages, so the Bible was translated into Russian in the 19th century, and more recently the Polish Orthodox Church began using the Polish language, about 50 years ago, and they use it more and more, since Polish has become particularly far removed from Church Slavonic. However, the Russians, Bulgarians, Serbians and Ukrainians tend to like it, although the sermons are preached in the vernacular. Unfortunately because the only two languages close to English are Scots, which is so close that many people regard it as a dialect or even an accent, and West Frisian, which is obscure although still partially mutually intelligible, it is difficult to relate the experience to us. But suffice it to say, if you go to a parish of the Orthodox Church of Japan, the language is in Japanese, if you go to an Orthodox Church of America or an Antiochian Orthodox parish in Montreal, Chicago and Mexico City, the predominant languages will be French, English and Spanish respectively. Indeed there is even a Welsh translation of the Divine Liturgy which is used by Orthodox Christians in Wales (where a minority of the population can speak Gaelic).

And furthermore, there are other aspects of inculturation, like the aforementioned changes in the style of music to suit different cultures.

Historically, the Roman Catholic Church tried to force Latin and Gregorian Chant on all converts, and this did not work particularly well, although the flipside is the Latin Mass is very beautiful and I am very upset about the efforts of Pope Francis to suppress it. Indeed the local Latin Mass community is growing, and it was growing before Pope Francis started trying to shut it down, and it is still growing, whereas many of the other local Catholic churches are losing members.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Recently, in another thread in the main Eastern Orthodox forum, I inadvertently made the debate a bit heated by making a stupid, crass and emotionally charged reply of a disparaging nature about Praise and Worship music. To be precise, I called it “trash” and in so doing through negligence caused offense to our friend @Jesse Dornfeld , and caused a bit of a polemical argument that detracted from the quality of the discussion. I also managed to make our community look bad by negligently making an insensitive remark and hurting the feelings of a friendly inquirer.

I get heated as well (especially in debates with atheists). But I never let it show. I just try and stick to the arguments. There have been times when I have been quite angry with someone and when I went back to look at what I said, it does not appear that there was much evidence that I was angry. I don't know why I am like this. I think, for one reason, is that I am not at all prone to violence. I have a low aggression score on the MMPI. It is exceptionally rare (I mean really rare) that I would resort to harsh language. However, I recently caught myself using a cuss word when something when completely not my way at all. It was a spur-of-the-moment type of thing. Of course, I asked God for forgiveness immediately afterward. I think God doesn't care that we sin, He cares that we try not to. And He is always there to forgive us if we do sin.

 

[The Liturgist]

I also practice this sort of thing. Basically, it's what you describe: Just waiting on the Lord in silence. I think this is pretty common for a lot of denominations of Christianity - even the dreaded Evangelical church.

I don’t have a problem with Evangelical churches. Indeed Lutherans, who call themselves Evangelical Catholics, are very close to us theologically. But there are two Evangelical denominations I really am fond of, the Christian and Missionary Alliance and the Evangelical Free Church, which is of Swedish origin, like me (although to be fair Sweden also produced Emanuel Swedenborg, who founded the New Church, which is an heretical cult.

My main regret is most of the parishes of the EV Free and Christian and Missionary Alliance no longer have the traditional music.

For this reason, I particularly like the Salvation Army, since it retains its historic band music, which I really enjoy, especially since they have relaxed their anti-sacramental stance, which previously set them apart from other denominations related to Methodism and John Wesley (John Wesley was very much influenced by the Orthodox Church; he believed Christians should fast on Wednesday and Friday, and have Holy Communion every Sunday, which is also our practice - in fact, he was secretly ordained a bishop by the Greek Orthodox bishop Erasmus of Arcadia, which was not a canonical ordination in that it did not make him an Orthodox bishop, but it did make him a bishop and provide additional theoretical justification for his ordination of a superintendent (bishop means superintendent, and presbyter and its Anglicization, priest, means elder, although priest has also come to refer to Kohanim in the Jewish religion and also the sacerdos or hierus or pontifex, the leaders of the Greco-Roman pagan religions, who were similar to the Brahmins or Pandits of Hinduism, albeit not entirely an hereditary caste; I attribute this confusion to the early English bibles translating hierus and sacerdos as priest, but not translating elder as priest or as presbyter, or translating superintendent as bishop, but John Wesley’s solution of simply calling his bishops superintendents and his presbyters elders made a great deal of sense.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I didn't say that.

However, I think being overly formal is definitely NOT what Christ Himself was about. He almost went out of His way not to be formal with people. He was a man just like anyone else. Yes, He was also God, obviously, but he was not drowned in liturgy to the point he couldn't talk normally with people. He picked 12 different men all from different backgrounds so His message had to appeal to a wide audience. He used the common tongue in a general way. One example of this is the parable (if it was a parable, I am not so sure) where the tax collector says, in a rather informal way, "Have mercy on me, a sinner." Long story short, God doesn't care how you do it as long as you do it for Him.

And yet that is exactly the Judaism he practiced in the Temple and Synagogue...formal and liturgical...

 

[The Liturgist]

I get heated as well (especially in debates with atheists). But I never let it show. I just try and stick to the arguments. There have been times when I have been quite angry with someone and when I went back to look at what I said, it does not appear that there was much evidence that I was angry. I don't know why I am like this. I think, for one reason, is that I am not at all prone to violence. I have a low aggression score on the MMPI. It is exceptionally rare (I mean really rare) that I would resort to harsh language. However, I recently caught myself using a cuss word when something when completely not my way at all. It was a spur-of-the-moment type of thing. Of course, I asked God for forgiveness immediately afterward. I think God doesn't care that we sin, He cares that we try not to. And He is always there to forgive us if we do sin.

There is an Orthodox writer who unfortunately has been promoting Universalism, which the vast majority of us regard as a gross theological error, one anathematized at the Fifth Ecumenical Council as a form of monergism, Dr. David Bentley Hart, but before he got on his current Universalist obsession, he wrote a brilliant rebuttal of Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion.

Now for my part, I never try to convert anyone by arguing with them because its impossible. I don’t think we can persuade atheists through argument to convert. I think rather a strategy that pulls them in, by having beautiful churches with beautiful worship services that are pleasing to all the senses is needed, with anyone invited to come and see. This is the approach we generally take to evangelization in the Orthodox Church, and it is how I was converted.

I particularly think the approach of the J/Ws and Mormons of going door to door is ineffective at doing much other than annoying people and also endangering the young missionaries the Mormons send out.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

And yet that is exactly the Judaism he practiced in the Temple and Synagogue...formal and liturgical...

I'm not convinced of that. Jesus constantly spoke against the formal practices of the Pharisees. That's why He highlighted that the Law was not perfect, and had plenty of negative things to say about the traditions of men from the Pharisees.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well, the Orthodox Church believes in inculturation, and for this reason, our music is different depending on the nationality of the church. For example, Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox music sounds very different from Greek Orthodox music; among the Greek Orthodox there exists a rare practice of three part harmony, but it is extremely rare, however, three part harmony or triphonal music is standard in the Georgian Orthodox Church.

In Africa, the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is an Oriental Orthodox Church (the Oriental Orthodox are very similar to the Eastern Orthodox and I am an outspoken advocate of reunion of the two churches) has very successful missions in Sub-Saharan Africa, in Tanzania and elsewhere, which use music based on the traditional music of the indigenous people. Likewise, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orhtodox Church, which used to be part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, has its own musical tradition which is derived from that of Ethiopian Judaism, and also uses a different liturgy, with the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayers, being of Syrian origin.

In Eastern Orthodoxy we see a similar pattern in Western Europe and North America among the Greek Orthodox, where Tikey Zes and Michaelides sought to compose four part harmony similar to Russian, Ukrainian and Western church music, and that of Tikey Zes also makes use of the organ. Organs have a long and complex history in the Orthodox Church, in that they have been used for centuries on the Ionian Islands, due to Venetian influence, and the organ was originally a Greek invention, and there was indeed an organ at the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, but it was not used to accompany the liturgy, but rather was installed in the Narthex, or vestibule, where it would be played to prepare the people waiting to enter the Nave, the central part of the church, for worship, in an engaging manner. The music in Hagia Sophia was spectacular, consisting of the Psalms and Evangelical Canticles sung by a massive choir, using a different liturgy than the rest of the church.

I think a lot of the reluctance with Orthodoxy is modernity. We developed for 2000 years while many of these modern non-doms are very recent. Today, many people want modernity and not ancient.