Orthodox; Catholics; and Protestants

[Rhett Smith]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, we are just that. May we not forget when we talk that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. May we remember God's desire that we may all be united in Him.

It is tempting for us to criticize the other branches of Christianity when we disagree, but this is not the Spirit of God -- this is the spirit of pride, idolatry of the intellect.

We are Orthodox because we have found in Orthodoxy the fullness of the faith. We have found depths previously un-plumbed in our Christian search (for those of us who are converts). When I became Orthodox, there was one doctrine that I couldn't get my head around, and I still can't, but I agreed to struggle with it (even if that means struggling with it for the rest of my life) because the words of St. Peter echoed in my head: "Where else would we go? Who else has the word of life?" I am Orthodox because of what I have discovered here -- love, humility, wisdom.

But you know what else I found in Orthodoxy? Profound compassion and acceptance. We Orthodox have a saying: "We know where God is, but we don't know where God is not." Indeed. I remember being struck by something my priest said leading up to my conversion. He said that he, as an Orthodox priest, knows that there are people who are closer to God than he is, brothers and sisters of other denominations, even some people of other faiths. Wow! This is not to say that Orthodoxy is merely one avenue amongst many; rather, it is a testament to the vastness of our God, and His love for all of His children.

I have been blessed to know deeply true Christians in all three groups, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant. My wife is Catholic. My father was ordained as an Anglican priest. I have a close friend who is a Protestant, and she is a much better Christian than I am: she is closer to God than I am. I talked with my priest once about Orthodox criticizing Catholics. He smiled and said, "We'd better be careful -- there are going to be more of them in heaven than there are of us."

So let us remember that we are brothers and sisters on the way. When we see misunderstandings, let us not jump up and down and say, 'You're wrong!' Let us peacefully explain what we believe and why we believe it. This is the Orthodox way. If the Spirit shows them the same thing, thank God. If not, that too is in the hands of God, not in our hands.

And let us listen! I have seen so many misconceptions, particularly about what Catholics believe. We are not so very far apart as it may seem. Let us help one another along.

Peace, brothers and sisters

 

[Dorothea]

You mean, we are to follow Christ's Top Two Commandments, IOW? Yes, indeed.

Also, don't go in GT - General Theology forum - here on CF, if you would like to keep your soul free from arguments, judgments, etc.

I was just listening to this podcast today, and I think it's pertinent to what you are saying in your OP, Rhett. Here's the link. It's a little over 8 mins in length, which is the average amount of time for Fr. Ted's homilies. Oops, it's a little over 14 mins. He goes on longer than usual on this subject.

Ecclesiology 101 - iSermon - Ancient Faith Radio

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, I second on avoiding GT, and any thread here that gets political for the sake of politics.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Being charitable to other communions? Ohhhh boy, better watch out or, like Bishop Kallistos Ware, you'll be branded a sell-out ecumenist traitor!

 

[rusmeister]

Well, there IS a point where a proper Christian love for all really does become ecumenism. There really IS a faith to defend. There is both an extreme of isolationism in pride, seeing only differences, and of ecumenism in a dismissal of what is vitally different, seeing only commonalities.

The truth consists of paradoxes. We are to love our neighbor, but not to love the world. We are to lose our lives in order to save them. And so on.

We are to be kind towards all, as our new member here calls us to do (although a homily as introduction has its disadvantages), but we are also to be aware of boundaries and borders, when we begin to err in the name of kindness. I do not say anything to contradict the spirit of Christian love urged here, but certainly evils can also be enacted in the name of kindness and pity, euthanasia, abortion, and now homosexual relations in the name of love.

So as always, we must be discerning, and be careful not to apply swift and extreme labels, but to think about where love should come across as compassionate, or tough love.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I love Protestants, am by-blood and marriage related to many, but I'm sorry, they are not my brothers and sisters. Cousins maybe. Brothers and sisters have the same flesh and blood, and I only have the same flesh and blood as those who've received the same Flesh and Blood that I receive in Holy Communion.

In Heaven will there be non-Orthodox? I'm sure. We'll all be one with Christ and all brothers and sister then, but when I hear non-Orthodox call me "Brother" it rings hollow, creepy, and insincere to me. Friend? Yes. Of some relation? Sure. As close as brother and sister? I'm sorry, no.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I love Protestants, am by-blood and marriage related to many, but I'm sorry, they are not my brothers and sisters. Cousins maybe. Brothers and sisters have the same flesh and blood, and I only have the same flesh and blood as those who've received the same Flesh and Blood that I receive in Holy Communion.

In Heaven will there be non-Orthodox? I'm sure. We'll all be one with Christ and all brothers and sister then, but when I hear non-Orthodox call me "Brother" it rings hollow, creepy, and insincere to me. Friend? Yes. Of some relation? Sure. As close as brother and sister? I'm sorry, no.

That makes a lot of sense to me. My priest told me "you take communion with those that you're in communion with" when referring to taking the Eucharist, I imagine the same thing can be applied to who we consider to be our family in Christ—those that we're experiencing the life of the Church with are those that naturally makeup our "brothers and sisters".

 

[ArmyMatt]

Brothers and sisters have the same flesh and blood, and I only have the same flesh and blood as those who've received the same Flesh and Blood that I receive in Holy Communion.

great way of putting it.

 

[Crandaddy]

I love Protestants, am by-blood and marriage related to many, but I'm sorry, they are not my brothers and sisters. Cousins maybe. Brothers and sisters have the same flesh and blood, and I only have the same flesh and blood as those who've received the same Flesh and Blood that I receive in Holy Communion.

In Heaven will there be non-Orthodox? I'm sure. We'll all be one with Christ and all brothers and sister then, but when I hear non-Orthodox call me "Brother" it rings hollow, creepy, and insincere to me. Friend? Yes. Of some relation? Sure. As close as brother and sister? I'm sorry, no.

The irony here is that you project the hollow insincerity upon the Protestant who calls you “Brother,” when it is in fact you who reject him as Brother. In fact, you can't be sure whether or not he's sincere (or else you don't seem to care).

This strikes me as cold, creepy... almost dehumanizing, even.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The irony here is that you project the hollow insincerity upon the Protestant who calls you “Brother,” when it is in fact you who reject him as Brother. In fact, you can't be sure whether or not he's sincere (or else you don't seem to care).

This strikes me as cold, creepy... almost dehumanizing, even.

I don't see the dehumanizing side, considering he says before that that he considers them family and friends, just not brother because of his point about the Eucharist.

 

[Crandaddy]

I don't see the dehumanizing side, considering he says before that that he considers them family and friends, just not brother because of his point about the Eucharist.

I said almost dehumanizing, and yes it does strike me as almost dehumanizing. Whether or not the Protestant might be sincere, he's labeled as such regardless. Before he's even known for who he is as a person, he's labeled as such because he's something that is outside the accepted group, something that is... other... He's one of... them....

This is what I get when I read it.

And I suppose I'll go ahead and say it...

This general attitude is why I might come across as so standoffish with Orthodox. Orthodoxy has a tendency to produce Pharisees. Cold, arrogant, condescending, holier-than-thou Pharisees. More so than any other Christian sect or denomination that I've yet come across.

Yes, I have had the misfortune of experiencing this firsthand.

Not all Orthodox. Not anyone here. But I have encountered some shockingly nasty ones, and they have left a mark on me (I only hope it's not indelible).

To Joseph I will say this:

I'm happy that you've found your Church home in Orthodoxy. I really am. But please watch yourself, please be mindful of your humility, and please meditate upon the story of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25.

Who are our Lord's brethren in verse 40?

Be very careful...

 

[rusmeister]

The irony here is that you project the hollow insincerity upon the Protestant who calls you “Brother,” when it is in fact you who reject him as Brother. In fact, you can't be sure whether or not he's sincere (or else you don't seem to care).

This strikes me as cold, creepy... almost dehumanizing, even.

Well, the thing is, we do not see ourselves as being in the same family. It's not dehumanizing - it's denying an extremely close relationship that we don't think is there.

A Pharisee is hypocritical and makes a big deal about the letter of e law at the expense of the spirit. I think your perception mistaken and that you expect a response that we don't feel we can honestly give, which WOULD be hypocritical. Please forgive us; no offense is intended.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, I agree with my brethren. We are called brother and sister when we are in the same family - communion with each other...it's considered a family. Listen to the podcast. Anyhow, we can say we are brothers and sisters in Adam, as I think a friend told me Elder Paisios had said at one time.

 

[Rhett Smith]

I guess the question is, what makes someone a sibling. So I ask, who is our Father? I know that's rather amorphous and leaves a lot of room for discussion, but it's a good starting point.

I think of The Good Samaritan parable as an appropriate analogy: who is a neighbor? who is a brother? Is that bond determined by shared beliefs and understandings? I don't think it is. That would be reductionist, falling into the largely western trap of mistaking philosophy for relationship.

But what we are talking about is relationship. I have a good friend who is Protestant. We pray for each other. We talk about our faith. God frequently shows us the exact same thing at the same time, totally independent of one another (she lives on the opposite side of the country). She is my sister in Christ, more than someone who happens to hold the same particular understandings as myself.

 

[Rhett Smith]

Orthodoxy is not the point -- Orthodoxy is the path that we are taking toward God. We believe that it is the best path. We believe that it is the fullness of the faith, providing us the best means of finding our way to God. But at the end of the day, Orthodoxy is a means and not the end. Father Seraphim Rose writes, "Do not let anything stand between you and the emulation of Christ, not even your Orthodoxy."

 

[Rhett Smith]

Crandaddy, I'm glad you're part of this conversation. You hold up a mirror for us that might be really helpful. You talk about Orthodox who are "Cold, arrogant, condescending, holier-than-thou Pharisees. More so than any other Christian sect or denomination that I've yet come across." That's pretty harsh, but I think it's fair.

Talk about paradoxes, Orthodoxy is fascinating in that it seems to lead either to great humility or great pride. I came to Orthodoxy in large part because of the profound humility that I discovered here. We have a rich tradition that brings us to a deeper place of Godly humility. Such is the fullness of the faith. However, this same richness becomes a trap when people wander into spiritual pride. I'm sorry about the pride that you've seen, and I pray that you will get a chance to see the profound humility too.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I said almost dehumanizing, and yes it does strike me as almost dehumanizing. Whether or not the Protestant might be sincere, he's labeled as such regardless. Before he's even known for who he is as a person, he's labeled as such because he's something that is outside the accepted group, something that is... other... He's one of... them....

Perhaps there are Protestants who are sincere when they say these things (undoubtedly there are at the very least those who want to be) but I've never personally encountered it. Any time I've seen it used it's been rather in the manner of a salesman who's trying to psychologically persuade someone of a closer relationship than exists in order to sell them something. In this case it's usually that my Church is false.

The thing about brotherhood (or familial ties at all) is that they do not depend upon what kind of person someone is. Familial ties are a matter of fact. When I say that my friend Dan isn't my brother, that's nothing against Dan, it's just a fact. We don't share blood, we don't share family ties via legality, it's just the way it is. Do you think Dan would be offended if on Tuesday (when I'll see him) I say "Hey, you know you're not my brother, right?" He'd look at me like I was crazy, especially if I stipulated "and I'm not talking about 'brother' colloquially, as in 'a really good friend' but I mean we're not related to one another."

Furthermore if you want to say all Christians are brothers and sisters, then you're just transferring your perceived dehumanization onto those who aren't Christian. How much better to admit that saying someone isn't in the same family as yourself is just a statement of fact with no real emotional ties to it and it doesn't dehumanize anyone.

In fact, if anything, proclaiming everyone to be your brother victimizes your actual brother, because it robs the word of meaning. Brother does imply a closer relationship than average. There are people who you are closer to than others. That's alright, that's why we have words to describe closer and farther relationships.

 

[Tigger45]

Here is some irony for a lot of Orthodox Christians {not born into the faith} the same person who first witnessed to me about Christ was the same person who steered me away from Orthodoxy. And that person was a protestant.

 

[geneseib]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, we are just that. May we not forget when we talk that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. May we remember God's desire that we may all be united in Him.

It is tempting for us to criticize the other branches of Christianity when we disagree, but this is not the Spirit of God -- this is the spirit of pride, idolatry of the intellect.

Peace, brothers and sisters

I agree

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I would have to say, if I had to positively choose, that Catholicism tends to have a MUCH higher degree of pharasaic adherents than Orthodoxy. Yes, Orthodoxy has those bandwagoners who jumped off of Catholicism or some other fundamentalist trip into the EO Church who want to just slam the pope all the time and use Orthodoxy as a holier-than-thou pedestal, but that's not the majority I know.

Most Orthodox I know have a way more open mind and a lot less legalistic mentality than Catholics and some Protestants I know. Look at a lot of the authors in here that we frequently reference like Chesterton (a Catholic) and Lews (an Anglican). I know several Orthodox who find Martin Luther flawed in his conclusions, but heroic and courageous in his actions against the CC, his outrage at abuses, etc. In Catholicism, they call him "Martin Loser."

Orthodox don't spend their time saying who is "valid" and "invalid" and worrying about if some rogue priest has "legitimate" orders to confect the Eucharist in some splinter group. Orthodox focus on Orthodoxy, not claiming to know what's outside our castle walls. I think that's healthy. We only know what we know, not God's interactive workings with other denominations. Personally, I pray the Lord blesses these other communities and gives them graces, hope, salvation, and spiritual aid. But I don't know what actually goes down between God and these communities of believers?

Unlike Joseph H., I have met some sincere Protestants, many actually. And I've met some who are more devout and Bible-loving and prayerful than a few Orthodox and Catholics I've known. Same with Catholics, same with we Orthodox. I don't think every Protestant is a salesman as I don't know their hearts and minds. I try to give a lot of them the benefit of the doubt. My own children attend a Protestant-run school and I live among these good folks. I see a lot of sincerity, caring, and love for God.

Crandaddy, I get your point. Some Orthodox can be condescending. I get it. But how arrogant can Anglicans be as well? Episcopalians mock Catholics who don't use birth control as a bunch of pathetic savages. Heck, with differences in opinions on sexuality, abortion, gay "ordination," and women's "ordination," heck Anglicans can't even get along with each other! They regularly use each other as pinatas. And I often found Anglicans to be the stuffiest of them all in that they look at Protestants and say "you guys aren't liturgical and catholic enough" and to the Catholics "you guys aren't protestant and calvinistic enough" and "luckily we have the best of both worlds and see through your silly barriers!"

That was my perception. Anglicans can be wishy-washy and lukewarm, which the Lord warns against...which is as dangerous as being a judgmental high priest fool.

All we can do is our best to find the communion we believe to be the Truth. I believe that is Orthodoxy. And I hope and pray for the best with my non-Orthodox brethren. There's a lot of hope in Christ.