Orthodox; Catholics; and Protestants

[Joseph Hazen]

Unlike Joseph H., I have met some sincere Protestants, many actually.

Hold up, if that's how I'm coming across I really need to clarify. In my experience it has been those Protestants (and an Eastern Catholic) who called me "brother" that came across as insincere in their use of the term. I meant to make no statement about their faith, and surely no statement about the faith of protestants in general (the vast majority of whom do not call me brother, which is really more interesting, since with our biological siblings we don't call one another 'brother' or 'sister.' That could also be a ripe area for discussion - why do we feel the need to address one another by something we thought should be taken for granted?)

But I just want to make sure I'm clear. I'm not talking about all Protestants, and not talking about anyone's faith. I'm talking about it sounding like a sales hook or gimmick with no basis in reality when approached by a certain, very small group of Protestants (and other Christians) and called "Brother."

 

[gracefullamb]

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[ArmyMatt]

I said almost dehumanizing, and yes it does strike me as almost dehumanizing. Whether or not the Protestant might be sincere, he's labeled as such regardless. Before he's even known for who he is as a person, he's labeled as such because he's something that is outside the accepted group, something that is... other... He's one of... them....

This is what I get when I read it.

And I suppose I'll go ahead and say it...

This general attitude is why I might come across as so standoffish with Orthodox. Orthodoxy has a tendency to produce Pharisees. Cold, arrogant, condescending, holier-than-thou Pharisees. More so than any other Christian sect or denomination that I've yet come across.

Yes, I have had the misfortune of experiencing this firsthand.

Not all Orthodox. Not anyone here. But I have encountered some shockingly nasty ones, and they have left a mark on me (I only hope it's not indelible).

yeah, and I can say the same thing about how my Anglican parish treated my sister when she was in her middle and high school years. they were "cold, arrogant, condescending, hollier-than-thou Pharisees." so I could say the same things about my former Anglican church, or some folks I have met in my unit, who have told me to my face that I am nothing more than an idol worshipping blasphemer. every denomination produces their whitewashed tombs.

I have also found that it is easier to call someone a Pharisee when you disagree with what they said or done. there is a fine line between a struggling sinner and a Pharisee.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Oh ok I see. That makes plenty of sense. There is a lot of that phony salesmanship with catch phrases and patronizing. I see what you mean. Good point.

Hold up, if that's how I'm coming across I really need to clarify. In my experience it has been those Protestants (and an Eastern Catholic) who called me "brother" that came across as insincere in their use of the term. I meant to make no statement about their faith, and surely no statement about the faith of protestants in general (the vast majority of whom do not call me brother, which is really more interesting, since with our biological siblings we don't call one another 'brother' or 'sister.' That could also be a ripe area for discussion - why do we feel the need to address one another by something we thought should be taken for granted?)

But I just want to make sure I'm clear. I'm not talking about all Protestants, and not talking about anyone's faith. I'm talking about it sounding like a sales hook or gimmick with no basis in reality when approached by a certain, very small group of Protestants (and other Christians) and called "Brother."

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My former Anglican parish was very, very dogmatic about two things: the Pope is a total bum and if you're in the Democratic Party, you're pure scum. Apart from that, there were NO boundaries on anything! LOL

yeah, and I can say the same thing about how my Anglican parish treated my sister when she was in her middle and high school years. they were "cold, arrogant, condescending, hollier-than-thou Pharisees." so I could say the same things about my former Anglican church, or some folks I have met in my unit, who have told me to my face that I am nothing more than an idol worshipping blasphemer. every denomination produces their whitewashed tombs.

I have also found that it is easier to call someone a Pharisee when you disagree with what they said or done. there is a fine line between a struggling sinner and a Pharisee.

 

[Crandaddy]

The thing about brotherhood (or familial ties at all) is that they do not depend upon what kind of person someone is. Familial ties are a matter of fact. When I say that my friend Dan isn't my brother, that's nothing against Dan, it's just a fact. We don't share blood, we don't share family ties via legality, it's just the way it is. Do you think Dan would be offended if on Tuesday (when I'll see him) I say "Hey, you know you're not my brother, right?" He'd look at me like I was crazy, especially if I stipulated "and I'm not talking about 'brother' colloquially, as in 'a really good friend' but I mean we're not related to one another."

Furthermore if you want to say all Christians are brothers and sisters, then you're just transferring your perceived dehumanization onto those who aren't Christian. How much better to admit that saying someone isn't in the same family as yourself is just a statement of fact with no real emotional ties to it and it doesn't dehumanize anyone.

In fact, if anything, proclaiming everyone to be your brother victimizes your actual brother, because it robs the word of meaning. Brother does imply a closer relationship than average. There are people who you are closer to than others. That's alright, that's why we have words to describe closer and farther relationships.

Joseph, “hollow, creepy, and insincere” have emotional ties.

Let's have a look at what you originally wrote, and I'll show you what I find offensive:

In Heaven will there be non-Orthodox? I'm sure. We'll all be one with Christ and all brothers and sister then, but when I hear non-Orthodox call me "Brother" it rings hollow, creepy, and insincere to me. Friend? Yes. Of some relation? Sure. As close as brother and sister? I'm sorry, no.

Question: Does it ring “hollow, creepy, and insincere” because they're non-Orthodox and therefore not your brothers, or does it just happen to be the case in your experience that when non-Orthodox call you “Brother” it rings thus? If the latter, then why single out non-Orthodox? Why mightn't an Orthodox come across likewise when he calls you “Brother”?

To help you see my point, replace “non-Orthodox” with “Jews” or “black people,” and see how it reads.

Perhaps there are Protestants who are sincere when they say these things (undoubtedly there are at the very least those who want to be) but I've never personally encountered it. Any time I've seen it used it's been rather in the manner of a salesman who's trying to psychologically persuade someone of a closer relationship than exists in order to sell them something. In this case it's usually that my Church is false.

Very well, but this was not sufficiently clear in what you originally wrote.

 

[Crandaddy]

Crandaddy, I get your point. Some Orthodox can be condescending. I get it. But how arrogant can Anglicans be as well? Episcopalians mock Catholics who don't use birth control as a bunch of pathetic savages. Heck, with differences in opinions on sexuality, abortion, gay "ordination," and women's "ordination," heck Anglicans can't even get along with each other! They regularly use each other as pinatas. And I often found Anglicans to be the stuffiest of them all in that they look at Protestants and say "you guys aren't liturgical and catholic enough" and to the Catholics "you guys aren't protestant and calvinistic enough" and "luckily we have the best of both worlds and see through your silly barriers!"

That was my perception. Anglicans can be wishy-washy and lukewarm, which the Lord warns against...which is as dangerous as being a judgmental high priest fool.

yeah, and I can say the same thing about how my Anglican parish treated my sister when she was in her middle and high school years. they were "cold, arrogant, condescending, hollier-than-thou Pharisees." so I could say the same things about my former Anglican church, or some folks I have met in my unit, who have told me to my face that I am nothing more than an idol worshipping blasphemer. every denomination produces their whitewashed tombs.

There are rotten apples in every bunch. This is true. I am quite aware that there are bad Anglicans.

To be fair (and clear) I'm speaking from my own personal experience.

I have also found that it is easier to call someone a Pharisee when you disagree with what they said or done. there is a fine line between a struggling sinner and a Pharisee.

I'm not sure that I see your point.

I will say this, though: There's a very wide line between respectfully stating a differing view and mocking another church and her martyrs, even stooping so low as to use vulgar sexual slurs--and this not from an ignorant layman, but from an individual very well-learned in Church history.

One final note of correction: I said “Protestants” above when I should have said “non-Orthodox.” Apologies.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Question: Does it ring “hollow, creepy, and insincere” because they're non-Orthodox and therefore not your brothers, or does it just happen to be the case in your experience that when non-Orthodox call you “Brother” it rings thus? If the latter, then why single out non-Orthodox? Why mightn't an Orthodox come across likewise when he calls you “Brother”?

The latter, and I single out non-Orthodox, because I think the only Orthodox who've ever called me brother have been close personal friends, in the same minor order I am in, or been related by a Sacrament (my kums sometimes call me brother, and they would fall under close personal friend too). Now that you say it I will be honest and say I can see a situation where it could sound creepy when a fellow Orthodox calls me brother, but that'd be unusual in my experience, and the creepy factor would have to be larger than the reality that, by being in the same Church, the same Communion, we do have an existing relationship.

The difference though is that everytime I've been addressed as brother by a non-Orthodox, "Well see, brother..." "Oh c'mon now brother..." "Brother ______, are you saying...?" it's been by someone who is trying to convince me that Orthodox is wrong. If everytime you met someone who called you 'Slugger' outside your family they tried to convince you that you should buy something from them, you'd become wary of people who called you slugger.

But I think, as I write this, we're talking about two different situations. I mean it sounds creepy (which might not be the best word. I used it to mean 'it automatically makes me put my guard up') when someone verbally (or on a forum) addresses me as "brother." I think you might be more concerned with mentally believing there is a familial relationship there? That I don't find creepy, I think it's a response of your ecclessiology. It makes sense for you to believe that. I don't, personally, but that's more along the lines of my believing in...I don't know, any other doctrine that Orthodox believe and Anglicans don't. That doesn't sound insincere.

Am I making sense? It's more the verbal usage of the relationship-term as a title that I mistrust. The fact that others believe we are in that relationship doesn't bother me, it's just another difference in our traditions. Those people who actually regard all Christians as brother seem to not use the term (getting back to what I had mentioned before). It is, again in my experience, those who don't actually believe in the "family of all Christians" who are more apt to verbally call me "brother" in an attempt to bring me into their church. That's what I meant by 'insincere' too.

And I really do recognize that if I lived in the south I might have to alter my way of thinking. I understand they use the term more commonly down there, whereas where I live it is not common for Protestants to call one another "Brother" even within their own church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So, Joe, I'll see you at church this weekend, brother!?

The latter, and I single out non-Orthodox, because I think the only Orthodox who've ever called me brother have been close personal friends, in the same minor order I am in, or been related by a Sacrament (my kums sometimes call me brother, and they would fall under close personal friend too). Now that you say it I will be honest and say I can see a situation where it could sound creepy when a fellow Orthodox calls me brother, but that'd be unusual in my experience, and the creepy factor would have to be larger than the reality that, by being in the same Church, the same Communion, we do have an existing relationship.

The difference though is that everytime I've been addressed as brother by a non-Orthodox, "Well see, brother..." "Oh c'mon now brother..." "Brother ______, are you saying...?" it's been by someone who is trying to convince me that Orthodox is wrong. If everytime you met someone who called you 'Slugger' outside your family they tried to convince you that you should buy something from them, you'd become wary of people who called you slugger.

But I think, as I write this, we're talking about two different situations. I mean it sounds creepy (which might not be the best word. I used it to mean 'it automatically makes me put my guard up') when someone verbally (or on a forum) addresses me as "brother." I think you might be more concerned with mentally believing there is a familial relationship there? That I don't find creepy, I think it's a response of your ecclessiology. It makes sense for you to believe that. I don't, personally, but that's more along the lines of my believing in...I don't know, any other doctrine that Orthodox believe and Anglicans don't. That doesn't sound insincere.

Am I making sense? It's more the verbal usage of the relationship-term as a title that I mistrust. The fact that others believe we are in that relationship doesn't bother me, it's just another difference in our traditions. Those people who actually regard all Christians as brother seem to not use the term (getting back to what I had mentioned before). It is, again in my experience, those who don't actually believe in the "family of all Christians" who are more apt to verbally call me "brother" in an attempt to bring me into their church. That's what I meant by 'insincere' too.

And I really do recognize that if I lived in the south I might have to alter my way of thinking. I understand they use the term more commonly down there, whereas where I live it is not common for Protestants to call one another "Brother" even within their own church.

 

[MKJ]

People who use any term to imply an intimacy that doesnt exist are creepy - even when it is an innocent term in and of itself. There seem to be some evangelicals who do that. It is probably meant honestly enough, as a way to try and show that they do not think they are above you, but it is still a bit creepy, as in too familiar.

In other cases I think it is a social convention, like Orthodox people saying Lord Have Mercy all the time. That is pretty common here in black churches, and I don't find it at all creepy to be included in that - it seems to have quite a different feeling. I suppose maybe because it is reflective of the way many blacks here speak in normal everyday speech outside religious contexts - it seems natural rather than self-conscious.

In any case, as far as the OP - I think that whoever is in Christ, or even whoever will be in Christ, is my brother or sister. Whether I am in communion with them or not now. Since I don't know who those people are, I tend to say that anyone I meet could potentially be such a person, and that is part of why I need to try always to see Christ in them.

Of course people can also mean brothers or sisters in the sense of the brotherhood of man. “We are all in the same boat, in a stormy sea, and we owe each other a terrible loyalty.”

 

[-Kyriaki-]

The thing is though, just because some people use it like that doesn't mean that they all do - I grew up protestant, and still spend a lot of time with devout protestants. I spent a week doing mission work (teaching kids bible stories etc) with a group of largely protestants only a month ago. They call me sister, or Sister Kyrie sometimes and all that they mean with that is that I am a fellow Christian. There's no salesmanship - yes, I've come across that too, but I think the monopoly on hating the salesmanship use of the term is not something that purely belongs to the Orthodox I hated it before I was Orthodox. That isn't the point.

These people that I have worked with, been friends with, looked up to my whole life - I've known protestants who are far better Christians in many ways than I am. Working with them gave me a chance to realise in humility how far I have to go, since I have so many extra blessings being Orthodox and having the sacraments, and yet they are closer to God in some ways than I am.

Rus was right in that we have to be careful not to fall into ecumenism and accepting that there's no problem with not being Orthodox - of course they should be, rather than Protestant or Catholic or whatever. But we shouldn't fall into the opposite extreme either. God does amazing work amongst the other groups and I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss that.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree. And we also need to remember that enormous sections of the United States have no Orthodox presence. None. There isn't an Orthodox parish in every town let alone every county and in some cases, even further. These people are born into their churches and do the best with what they've been taught often times. Maybe we should all have a stronger sense of urgency to spread Orthodoxy to more cities and share our amazing faith with others....

The thing is though, just because some people use it like that doesn't mean that they all do - I grew up protestant, and still spend a lot of time with devout protestants. I spent a week doing mission work (teaching kids bible stories etc) with a group of largely protestants only a month ago. They call me sister, or Sister Kyrie sometimes and all that they mean with that is that I am a fellow Christian. There's no salesmanship - yes, I've come across that too, but I think the monopoly on hating the salesmanship use of the term is not something that purely belongs to the Orthodox I hated it before I was Orthodox. That isn't the point.

These people that I have worked with, been friends with, looked up to my whole life - I've known protestants who are far better Christians in many ways than I am. Working with them gave me a chance to realise in humility how far I have to go, since I have so many extra blessings being Orthodox and having the sacraments, and yet they are closer to God in some ways than I am.

Rus was right in that we have to be careful not to fall into ecumenism and accepting that there's no problem with not being Orthodox - of course they should be, rather than Protestant or Catholic or whatever. But we shouldn't fall into the opposite extreme either. God does amazing work amongst the other groups and I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss that.

 

[Crandaddy]

But I think, as I write this, we're talking about two different situations. I mean it sounds creepy (which might not be the best word. I used it to mean 'it automatically makes me put my guard up') when someone verbally (or on a forum) addresses me as "brother." I think you might be more concerned with mentally believing there is a familial relationship there? That I don't find creepy, I think it's a response of your ecclessiology. It makes sense for you to believe that. I don't, personally, but that's more along the lines of my believing in...I don't know, any other doctrine that Orthodox believe and Anglicans don't. That doesn't sound insincere.

What concerned me was that you started off by saying that Protestants/non-Orthodox aren't your brothers and sisters, which I don't necessarily object to by itself, but then you moved right into saying that their calling you "Brother" "rings hollow, creepy, and insincere" to you without giving any indication as to why.

You've since clarified what you meant, but the way you put it in that post made it appear that they were just trying to be friendly and you were turning up your nose at them as something "less" than you. That's what it looked like to me, anyway, which is why I objected to it.

 

[Crandaddy]

Crandaddy, I'm glad you're part of this conversation. You hold up a mirror for us that might be really helpful. You talk about Orthodox who are "Cold, arrogant, condescending, holier-than-thou Pharisees. More so than any other Christian sect or denomination that I've yet come across." That's pretty harsh, but I think it's fair.

Yes, it is pretty harsh, but it's something I needed to get off my chest.

Talk about paradoxes, Orthodoxy is fascinating in that it seems to lead either to great humility or great pride. I came to Orthodoxy in large part because of the profound humility that I discovered here. We have a rich tradition that brings us to a deeper place of Godly humility. Such is the fullness of the faith. However, this same richness becomes a trap when people wander into spiritual pride. I'm sorry about the pride that you've seen, and I pray that you will get a chance to see the profound humility too.

Thank you, Rhett.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm not sure that I see your point.

I will say this, though: There's a very wide line between respectfully stating a differing view and mocking another church and her martyrs, even stooping so low as to use vulgar sexual slurs--and this not from an ignorant layman, but from an individual very well-learned in Church history.

One final note of correction: I said “Protestants” above when I should have said “non-Orthodox.” Apologies.

yeah, sorry about not being clear. I just wanted to point out that it's easier to drop the name of calling someone a Pharisee, because they are percieved as cold and holier than thou and everything else, and it might not be the case. I got called this by my family a few times because I was in Church on Saturday nights for Vespers when they wanted to go out.

 

[27B6]

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[Nephi]

Orthodoxy is not the point -- Orthodoxy is the path that we are taking toward God. We believe that it is the best path. We believe that it is the fullness of the faith, providing us the best means of finding our way to God. But at the end of the day, Orthodoxy is a means and not the end. Father Seraphim Rose writes, "Do not let anything stand between you and the emulation of Christ, not even your Orthodoxy."

I'm really mixed on this. I wouldn't be inclined to agree if it means that the Church is just the best of many paths to God.

 

[27B6]

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[Nephi]

My thinking begins by considering what do we actually KNOW about it. Precious little if you ask me, at least not enough to provide a definitive answer. We know that no one approaches the Father but through the Son. And we know that baptism and eucharist are necessary for salvation, in Christ's own words. And we know that the sacraments of the Church allow that -- that is our faith. So, it is precisely correct to insist that the Church has all that one needs to find the Son and participate in the sacramental life and become partakers of the divine nature.

OTOH, the Church itself teaches that other paths contain, in St. Justin Martyr's words, the logos spermatikos or seeds of truth, and St. Paul teaches that the truth is written in everyone's heart (and therefore accessible). Further, the Church has from antiquity taught the idea of the virtuous pagan. Christ also taught, when questioned by His apostles about people outside the apostolic community, but who were healing and preaching in His name, that they would receive their reward. And it is also said that heaven has many mansions. Finally, the Church teaches that God is merciful, ever-present, and truly desires the salvation of all. So I think it is reasonable to think that, in some mysterious way, that our merciful Lord may provide some kind of opportunity for those who are outside the Church and have followed a different yet virtuous path, to become partakers and to accept Christ as their master. How, I don't know. But we know that our good Lord has not revealed all His plans, and He has given us reason to hope and pray that others may be saved even if they are not, at this time or even in this life, in sacramental communion with His Church. This is my personal hope, though I do not know.

I think your last few sentences touch on the point I was trying to make.

Hoping that, and maybe even knowing, God will save some or many outside of the Church is great, but to teach salvific merit of paths outside of the Church - not so much. I think it's an important distinction.

 

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