Opinions on the Corrective Baptism issue?

rusmeister

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Thank you for the above. It is exactly what I have understood the situation to be but I lack the ability to express adequately. We have had a lot to do with Fr Peter in the past, my wife having translated from Greek into English his 2nd book on Elder Cleopas (The Truth of our Faith Vol. 2) and assisted in the translation of the 1st book (The Truth of our Faith Vol. 1). I have not read his book on the reception of the heterodox but I am curious now to see what, if anything, the controversy is about his book.

For the record, I was raised by my parents in the Anglican Church and was received into the Orthodox Church in Thessaloniki, Greece by chrismation under Metropolitan Panteleimon II Chrysofakis.
I don’t want to beat on people here. It is right to say (if the bishop is speaking truth from Tradition) that we should obey the bishop. We ought to look on ANY call to disobey a bishop with strong skepticism. If a consortium of bishops says a thing, we ought to take it VERY seriously, and dismiss nothing lightly. I just think Fr Peter is being misrepresented, INCLUDING bishops who otherwise ought to command our respect. The situation IS disturbing; I don’t think Fr Peter is to blame. That makes it MORE disturbing that bishops that we ought to trust are giving us reason to doubt, whether it be through deliberate action or carelessness.

PS: My iPad is dying; I have no means of replacing it. It betrays me by typing multiple letters, wrong letters, erasing more than I intend and in general, increasingly poor performance. If you see errors, I ask your indulgence. I correct all of the ones that I catch.
 
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abacabb3

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Apparently Father Peter Heers' letter was leaked to Orthochristian.com


In it he disavows that the bishop does not have the final say on the baptism issue.

He also lists his itinerary, and it is disconcerting that anything he listed would constitute "sneaking around." @ArmyMatt , Father bless! If you were asked over someone's house for dinner with Orthodox people present, would you have to consult the region's 15 bishops for permission to have dinner conversation with whomever is there?

For better or worse, agree with him or disagree with him, this is a persecution of the man. As for the questions of whether priests should have online shows, or whether corrective baptisms should be advertised, I think these are substantial points of differences that should be explored. I personally say yes to the former (for the sake of evangelism) and the latter via printed media (but not online which is too brief a format to explain things and may sow confusion).
 
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ArmyMatt

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If you were asked over someone's house for dinner with Orthodox people present, would you have to consult the region's 15 bishops for permission to have dinner conversation with whomever is there?
no, I wouldn’t
 
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E.C.

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Apparently Father Peter Heers' letter was leaked to Orthochristian.com


In it he disavows that the bishop does not have the final say on the baptism issue.

He also lists his itinerary, and it is disconcerting that anything he listed would constitute "sneaking around." @ArmyMatt , Father bless! If you were asked over someone's house for dinner with Orthodox people present, would you have to consult the region's 15 bishops for permission to have dinner conversation with whomever is there?

For better or worse, agree with him or disagree with him, this is a persecution of the man. As for the questions of whether priests should have online shows, or whether corrective baptisms should be advertised, I think these are substantial points of differences that should be explored. I personally say yes to the former (for the sake of evangelism) and the latter via printed media (but not online which is too brief a format to explain things and may sow confusion).
"Leaked" would be inaccurate, he posted it on his own website.

Persecution is a bit strong. Is he in jail? Has he been deposed? Is his parish under bombardment? Does he have to pay a jizya tax to his Muslim overlords? Has he been beaten in the streets? Has he been run out of town? Is he being held at gunpoint for celebrating the Divine Liturgy? Was he forced to flee his home due to war? NO. So until any of those happen, I hardly think "persecution" is anywhere near appropriate; especially considering the plight of the Orthodox in Ukraine, our Armenian brothers in Artsakh, and the few Christians in Gaza.


That said, Fr Peter's problems are entirely his own doing. If he had the integrity to submit to a bishop, as is required for a priest, and took direction from said bishop instead of making up his own rules like a Reformed Protestant or a Gnostic than he would not have these problems. Saying a bishop "does not have the final word" on any given issue is not Orthodox - a bishop does have the final word unless he is overruled by a synod of the other bishops or a council. Perhaps if Fr Peter listened to a real knowledgeable priest, like Fr Tom Hopko of blessed memory, half as much as he listens to his own delusions than he would know what Orthodoxy actually is. Or better yet, maybe if he listened to his own bishop instead of picking fights with everyone else like an insecure man-child he wouldn't be disowned by every canonical American jurisdiction.

Until some bishop in the world claims him as is own and until the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in America changes its recent ruling, he is canonically speaking "persona non grata" at best and is therefore not anyone whom I would recommend going to for any lesson on Orthodoxy beyond what sort of priest one should avoid.
 
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abacabb3

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"Leaked" would be inaccurate, he posted it on his own website.

Persecution is a bit strong. Is he in jail? Has he been deposed? Is his parish under bombardment? Does he have to pay a jizya tax to his Muslim overlords? Has he been beaten in the streets? Has he been run out of town? Is he being held at gunpoint for celebrating the Divine Liturgy? Was he forced to flee his home due to war? NO. So until any of those happen, I hardly think "persecution" is anywhere near appropriate; especially considering the plight of the Orthodox in Ukraine, our Armenian brothers in Artsakh, and the few Christians in Gaza.


That said, Fr Peter's problems are entirely his own doing. If he had the integrity to submit to a bishop, as is required for a priest, and took direction from said bishop instead of making up his own rules like a Reformed Protestant or a Gnostic than he would not have these problems. Saying a bishop "does not have the final word" on any given issue is not Orthodox - a bishop does have the final word unless he is overruled by a synod of the other bishops or a council. Perhaps if Fr Peter listened to a real knowledgeable priest, like Fr Tom Hopko of blessed memory, half as much as he listens to his own delusions than he would know what Orthodoxy actually is. Or better yet, maybe if he listened to his own bishop instead of picking fights with everyone else like an insecure man-child he wouldn't be disowned by every canonical American jurisdiction.

Until some bishop in the world claims him as is own and until the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in America changes its recent ruling, he is canonically speaking "persona non grata" at best and is therefore not anyone whom I would recommend going to for any lesson on Orthodoxy beyond what sort of priest one should avoid.
I used the term persecution because people are honestly trying to destroy his career over his beliefs

May that not happen to you! And next time you speak theology at dinner, get everyones permission first or you're sneaking around too!

As for the leak I had no idea it was on his website.
 
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rusmeister

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"Leaked" would be inaccurate, he posted it on his own website.

Persecution is a bit strong. Is he in jail? Has he been deposed? Is his parish under bombardment? Does he have to pay a jizya tax to his Muslim overlords? Has he been beaten in the streets? Has he been run out of town? Is he being held at gunpoint for celebrating the Divine Liturgy? Was he forced to flee his home due to war? NO. So until any of those happen, I hardly think "persecution" is anywhere near appropriate; especially considering the plight of the Orthodox in Ukraine, our Armenian brothers in Artsakh, and the few Christians in Gaza.


That said, Fr Peter's problems are entirely his own doing. If he had the integrity to submit to a bishop, as is required for a priest, and took direction from said bishop instead of making up his own rules like a Reformed Protestant or a Gnostic than he would not have these problems. Saying a bishop "does not have the final word" on any given issue is not Orthodox - a bishop does have the final word unless he is overruled by a synod of the other bishops or a council. Perhaps if Fr Peter listened to a real knowledgeable priest, like Fr Tom Hopko of blessed memory, half as much as he listens to his own delusions than he would know what Orthodoxy actually is. Or better yet, maybe if he listened to his own bishop instead of picking fights with everyone else like an insecure man-child he wouldn't be disowned by every canonical American jurisdiction.

Until some bishop in the world claims him as is own and until the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in America changes its recent ruling, he is canonically speaking "persona non grata" at best and is therefore not anyone whom I would recommend going to for any lesson on Orthodoxy beyond what sort of priest one should avoid.
I’m sorry, EC, but this seems to me to be a particular dislike of the man so intense that you cannot, you refuse to see the non-canonicity of the bishops’ treatment of him. There’s nothing canonical in what the bishops have done, whatever you think Fr Peter may have done. Show me the canons that provide for “releasing “ (cutting off] a priest from all jurisdictions and refusing to receive him, when he he is in good standing, has not been defrocked, and then complaining when he continues to try to live as an Orthodox priest. You say he “refuses to submit to a bishop”. What bishop has accepted him so that he might submit to him? It is very hard to submit when all bishops involved say that they will not receive him. I should like to see you try it. As I understand the case, he did submit to the bishop in ROCOR after being released from the Greek Church, with the understanding that that was the plan, only to be footballed. Maybe I’m ignorant of Church law, but I know of no canon for declaring a priest “persona non grata” without his having been disciplined. If he were defrocked or excommunicated, that would be another matter.

A bishop’s “final word” is contingent on whether it is within Orthodox Tradition or not. I think you have to narrow the scope of what the issue is. Bishops don’t have blank checks to declare anything at all. A bishop may say that the Church ought to reconsider its position on same-sex couples. A bishop DID say it. That doesn’t make his word final or even Orthodox.

And there are different levels of persecution, just as there are different levels of martyrdom. We speak of “the little martyrdom” of marriage, though no one is being burned at a stake. Persecution can be in subtle and smaller things.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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Persecution is a bit strong. Is he in jail? Has he been deposed? Is his parish under bombardment? Does he have to pay a jizya tax to his Muslim overlords? Has he been beaten in the streets? Has he been run out of town? Is he being held at gunpoint for celebrating the Divine Liturgy? Was he forced to flee his home due to war? NO. So until any of those happen, I hardly think "persecution" is anywhere near appropriate; especially considering the plight of the Orthodox in Ukraine, our Armenian brothers in Artsakh, and the few Christians in Gaza.
I say this as someone starting to lean away from "corrective baptisms" (not that I held that position in the first place), and more towards Chrism/Holy Spirit-respecter, but....this is standard atheist/materialist fare.

"You're not being physically persecuted?? Then, you're not actually being persecuted." Which is to presuppose anything immaterial isn't real. I suppose watching pr0n is okay now since you're not physically committing adultery. You'd rightly disagree, but for whatever reason persecutions must be physical in order to be legitimate.

Meanwhile, there's a certain quote from a certain hieromonk who reposed in the early 80s that gets bandied about about how martyrs in the latter days will endure psychological tortures/persecutions that will match the physical persecutions of the early church.

Not that I'm taking a position on Fr. Peter's perceived persecutions or not, but relegating persecutions to just the physical is a materialist move, and a common atheist argument when Protestants bring up the subtle ways the secular world "persecutes" them.
 
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prodromos

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I’m sorry, EC, but this seems to me to be a particular dislike of the man so intense that you cannot, you refuse to see the non-canonicity of the bishops’ treatment of him. There’s nothing canonical in what the bishops have done, whatever you think Fr Peter may have done. Show me the canons that provide for “releasing “ (cutting off] a priest from all jurisdictions and refusing to receive him, when he he is in good standing, has not been defrocked, and then complaining when he continues to try to live as an Orthodox priest. You say he “refuses to submit to a bishop”. What bishop has accepted him so that he might submit to him? It is very hard to submit when all bishops involved say that they will not receive him. I should like to see you try it. As I understand the case, he did submit to the bishop in ROCOR after being released from the Greek Church, with the understanding that that was the plan, only to be footballed. Maybe I’m ignorant of Church law, but I know of no canon for declaring a priest “persona non grata” without his having been disciplined. If he were defrocked or excommunicated, that would be another matter.

A bishop’s “final word” is contingent on whether it is within Orthodox Tradition or not. I think you have to narrow the scope of what the issue is. Bishops don’t have blank checks to declare anything at all. A bishop may say that the Church ought to reconsider its position on same-sex couples. A bishop DID say it. That doesn’t make his word final or even Orthodox.

And there are different levels of persecution, just as there are different levels of martyrdom. We speak of “the little martyrdom” of marriage, though no one is being burned at a stake. Persecution can be in subtle and smaller things.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just stated.
 
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The Liturgist

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not always, I know folks who were chrismated who communed at his monasteries.

I was Chrismated, and received communion almost every day of my stay at St. Anthony’s, and artoklasia when it was available. They didn’t even ask! The only slight problem was at one liturgy to my chagrin I did not open my mouth wide enough and the priest had to ask me to do that. I frequently overestimate how far open my mouth is; when I go to the dentist what I hear the most is “wider, wider, a little wider” followed by the buzzing and squeaking and whirring of dental instruments, and unfortunately this also happens on some occasions when I receive the Eucharist (aside from the unpleasant sounds and tastes of the dental instruments, which instead are replaced by the glorious and sublime experience of the Eucharist).

I love partaking of the Eucharist so much, I am at a loss as to why some denominations like the Salvation Army and the Quakers reject it.
 
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E.C.

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I used the term persecution because people are honestly trying to destroy his career over his beliefs

May that not happen to you! And next time you speak theology at dinner, get everyones permission first or you're sneaking around too!

As for the leak I had no idea it was on his website.
Again, he's not doing anything to help his case. He is being dodgy about who his bishop is, he is putting his own opinions above that of bishops (including those of the jurisdiction he wants to be a part of), and, he is making a theological mountain out of a molehill.

Don't even get me started on his followers that make up a large part of the convert population of DC's ROCOR community which is a large part why I quit going there (that, their intolerance for those on the New Calendar, and adopted Russian chauvinism). The alt-right Orthodox that is as antisemetic as actual Nazis, intolerant of other views, and overly correct? That's his crowd, those are the ones who idolize him and he does nothing to calm them down. Are there bishops who follow the spirit of the law more often then not? Sure thing. Are there those who likewise follow the letter of the law more often then not? Sure thing. But, the issue of how converts from other Christian traditions are received into the Church is not exactly the issue to cause division over especially when every Divine Liturgy we say the Nicene Creed where we say "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sin". Read, ONE, not MANY. He's turning a certain strain of American Orthodoxy into the Westboro Baptists of Orthodoxy and I don't think that's the solution to any of our problems. The Orthodox Church is the hospital for the soul, not the vanguard for the conservative end of the culture war and that's what he and his crowd are turning Her into. The American Orthodox who think that the solution is for us all to follow Putin? That's the Heers crowd again. If we are to know people by their followers, than just look at what he's produced.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to follow the ruling of my bishop; who signed the letter by the Assembly not to affiliate with this priest who, to use rusmeister's term, is behaving like a neo-Gnostic and acting like he knows better than the collective Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Remember: among the canons of the Seven Ecumenical Councils it spells out that certain heretics who repent are to be received back into the Church via Chrismation, others by Baptism, others by Confession. Many of those heretics were further from the True Faith than today's Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans. And since this pre-dates the Great Schism, it was Fr Peter Moglia of the Russian Orthodox Church who established the practice of receiving Roman Catholics via Chrismation in the 18th century. A century or so before that the Synod of Jerusalem 1672 established similar guidelines: Catholics via Chrismation, Protestants via Baptism. If Fr Peter Heers wants to be part of the Russian Church in some fashion, maybe he should start by following its not-so-ancient tradition instead of his own personal opinions. At the end of the day, his dodgyness and rhetoric make him the liability he has become so that no bishop wants to deal with his problems. Why take someone in who won't be obedient? Sure, ROCOR could take him in, hold a Spiritual Court, and depose him removing him from the clergy. But given the trend, he'll probably call their decision invalid, their Synod compromised, himself a "victim", and, continue afterwards as he were still a priest ignoring the decision of the jurisdiction he still claims to be a part of, even though it clearly disowned him.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I was Chrismated, and received communion almost every day of my stay at St. Anthony’s, and artoklasia when it was available. They didn’t even ask! The only slight problem was at one liturgy to my chagrin I did not open my mouth wide enough and the priest had to ask me to do that. I frequently overestimate how far open my mouth is; when I go to the dentist what I hear the most is “wider, wider, a little wider” followed by the buzzing and squeaking and whirring of dental instruments, and unfortunately this also happens on some occasions when I receive the Eucharist (aside from the unpleasant sounds and tastes of the dental instruments, which instead are replaced by the glorious and sublime experience of the Eucharist).

I love partaking of the Eucharist so much, I am at a loss as to why some denominations like the Salvation Army and the Quakers reject it.
praise God!
 
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abacabb3

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Again, he's not doing anything to help his case. He is being dodgy about who his bishop is, he is putting his own opinions above that of bishops (including those of the jurisdiction he wants to be a part of), and, he is making a theological mountain out of a molehill.

Don't even get me started on his followers that make up a large part of the convert population of DC's ROCOR community which is a large part why I quit going there (that, their intolerance for those on the New Calendar, and adopted Russian chauvinism). The alt-right Orthodox that is as antisemetic as actual Nazis, intolerant of other views, and overly correct? That's his crowd, those are the ones who idolize him and he does nothing to calm them down. Are there bishops who follow the spirit of the law more often then not? Sure thing. Are there those who likewise follow the letter of the law more often then not? Sure thing. But, the issue of how converts from other Christian traditions are received into the Church is not exactly the issue to cause division over especially when every Divine Liturgy we say the Nicene Creed where we say "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sin". Read, ONE, not MANY. He's turning a certain strain of American Orthodoxy into the Westboro Baptists of Orthodoxy and I don't think that's the solution to any of our problems. The Orthodox Church is the hospital for the soul, not the vanguard for the conservative end of the culture war and that's what he and his crowd are turning Her into. The American Orthodox who think that the solution is for us all to follow Putin? That's the Heers crowd again. If we are to know people by their followers, than just look at what he's produced.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to follow the ruling of my bishop; who signed the letter by the Assembly not to affiliate with this priest who, to use rusmeister's term, is behaving like a neo-Gnostic and acting like he knows better than the collective Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Remember: among the canons of the Seven Ecumenical Councils it spells out that certain heretics who repent are to be received back into the Church via Chrismation, others by Baptism, others by Confession. Many of those heretics were further from the True Faith than today's Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans. And since this pre-dates the Great Schism, it was Fr Peter Moglia of the Russian Orthodox Church who established the practice of receiving Roman Catholics via Chrismation in the 18th century. A century or so before that the Synod of Jerusalem 1672 established similar guidelines: Catholics via Chrismation, Protestants via Baptism. If Fr Peter Heers wants to be part of the Russian Church in some fashion, maybe he should start by following its not-so-ancient tradition instead of his own personal opinions. At the end of the day, his dodgyness and rhetoric make him the liability he has become so that no bishop wants to deal with his problems. Why take someone in who won't be obedient? Sure, ROCOR could take him in, hold a Spiritual Court, and depose him removing him from the clergy. But given the trend, he'll probably call their decision invalid, their Synod compromised, himself a "victim", and, continue afterwards as he were still a priest ignoring the decision of the jurisdiction he still claims to be a part of, even though it clearly disowned him.
Did you get your bishops permission to write this? I perceive it as teaching.
 
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abacabb3

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What exactly did he do?
People who like Father Peter are annoying. This justifies a concerted attempt to make world war 3 out of going to dinner in Texas (he asked for it, how dare he go to dinner without finding out the guests), and any and all attempts to destroy his career and force his family to move back to Greece (because that's easy peasie, any of us would do it if in his shoes, totally not hypocritical). Oh, and there's vague heresy stuff, can't quite put my finger on it, but yeah, he's a heretic, because, um Arian-Mono-Calvinism or something.

I honestly wonder if this whole thing is really about the vaccine and shut downs and those who cannot admit they were wrong on those things have just contrived new reasons to be unhappy.

*Edited to depersonalize the reply
 
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