One Baptism for the remission of sins

[Rilian]

We are born with the sin of Adam and Eve with us. We are cleansed from it through Baptism.

Answer this question for me then, are we in an objective state of sin until baptized?

 

[repentant]

Answer this question for me then, are we in an objective state of sin until baptized?

We are in our fallen state until Baptized. After, we are cleansed of original sin and our fallen state, and are brought back to the Grace of God, and after our life on earth is over, we return to the state we were before the fall, in complete Communion with God.

 

[Rilian]

Quote me where I said we bear personal responsibility...

It's implied in your whole argument. If we are born accountable for sins we did not commit, and are not just subject to their effects, we bear a level of personal responsibility for them.

 

[Rilian]

We are in our fallen state until Baptized. After, we are cleansed of original sin and our fallen state, and are brought back to the Grace of God, and after our life on earth is over, we return to the state we were before the fall, in complete Communion with God.

You didn't quite answer the question. Are we in a state of sin before baptism, as in do we have sin within us?

 

[repentant]

It's implied in your whole argument. If we are born accountable for sins we did not commit, and are not just subject to their effects, we bear a level of personal responsibility for them.

Why do people say I like to argue, when people argue with me over things I never said? I never said we are born accountable, I said we are born with the burden of it. The quote from the Synod, states this. I never said we are responsible, held accountable, need to pay for, etc etc. I just said we are born with the burden. Does everyone understand now? The way you people sound and act is that there is no such thing as original sin.

 

[repentant]

You didn't quite answer the question. Are we in a state of sin before baptism, as in do we have sin within us?

Even though no one answers me, I will answer you I guess... depends...if your an adult, then yes, you are in the state of original sin, and whatever sins you have done....if baby....then you are just in the state of original sin., because chidren are innocent, and can't sin.

You need to clarify your questions better.

 

[Akathist]

In Baptism are completed the articles of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we plunge our heads down in the water, the old man is buried in a tomb below, and wholly sunk for ever; then, as we raise them again, the new man rises in his place. As it is easy for us to dip and to lift our heads again, so it is easy for God to bury the old man, and to show forth the new. And this is done thrice, that you may learn that the power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit fulfils all this. To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, "We were buried with Him by Baptism into death"; and again, "Our old man was crucified with Him"; and again, "We have been planted together in the likeness of His death." And not only is Baptism called a "cross," but the Cross is called Baptism. "With the Baptism," says Christ, "that I am baptized with, shall ye be baptized"; and "I have a Baptism to be baptized with, which ye know not." For as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed; or rather, much more easily, though He tarried the three days for the dispensation of a certain mystery.

St John Chrysostom, Homilies on St. John

I read this and thought it was a wonderful quote. (It is not part of any debate, just an interesting quote being posted.)

 

[repentant]

Actually to even more clarify my answer to your question...we are always in a state of sin, and always have sin within us. We are all sinners and being Baptized does not change that. Now granted, when we confess our sins, we are cleansed of our sins and purified, but we again, because of our sinfulness, fall back into a state of sin. Then repeat.

 

[Akathist]

Actually to even more clarify my answer to your question...we are always in a state of sin, and always have sin within us. We are all sinners and being Baptized does not change that. Now granted, when we confess our sins, we are cleansed of our sins and purified, but we again, because of our sinfulness, fall back into a state of sin. Then repeat.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Rilian]

Actuall y to even more clarify my answer to your question...we are always in a state of sin, and always have sin within us. we are all sinners and being Baptized does not change that. Now granted, when we confess oyr sins, we are cleansed of our sins and purified, but we again because of our sinfulness, fall back into a state of sin. Then repeat.

So we are in a state of sin from the time of conception, correct?

Your earlier statement that

if your an adult, then yes, you are in the state of original sin, and whatever sins you have done....if baby....then you are just in the state of original sin

would support that even if a baby is not committing sins, they are in a state of sin and not just subject to the effects of sin.

 

[repentant]

So we are in a state of sin from the time of conception, correct?

Your earlier statement that



would support that even if a baby is not committing sins, they are in a state of sin and not just subject to the effects of sin.

state/burden of original sin...

from the Baptismal Service..

"That this water may be for him (her) a laver of Regeneration unto the remission of sins, and a garment of incorruption; let us pray to the Lord."

"O Master of All, declare this water to be water of redemption, water of sanctification, a cleansing of flesh and spirit, a loosing of bonds, a forgiveness of sins, an illumination of soul, a laver of regeneration, a renewal of the spirit, a gift of sonship, a garment of incorruption, a fountain of life."

"Manifest Yourself, O Lord, in this water, and grant that he (she) that is to be baptized may be transformed therein to the putting away of the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts"

What sins are they speaking of in a baby, if according to you they have none at all?

 

[Akathist]

Here is a link to the Baptismal Service of the Orthodox Church:

http://goarch.org/en/Chapel/liturgical_texts/baptism.asp

 

[Rilian]

What sins are they speaking of in a baby, if according to you they have none at all?

It is forgiveness of sins for those who bear sins, namely those who have exercised the will in order to sin.

The consequences of your belief that we are born in a state of sin are most telling in regards to the Theotokos. If you are correct in asserting that we are born in a state of sin, and not just subject to sin (regardless of any conscious decision to sin), then it would have been impossible for the Theotokos to remain sinless between her birth and the time of her Annunciation as the Ecumenical Patriarch described and as you said you agreed with. What would be necessary is something like the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which would protect her from Original Sin from the very first moment of her existence.

We are born in to fallen creation, but not as fallen creatures. It is through the exercise of the will that we sin, and it was through the exercise of the will that the Theotokos was purified and exalted.

I hope you are able to recognize that, because it is crucial to our faith.

I'm off to bed now.

 

[Akathist]

Here is my probably inaccurate understanding:

Adam (and Eve) sinned. They suffered the result of that sin. God created "death" for human's as a result of their sin and they became mortal. Because we are born of man, we are all born mortal.

When we are baptised, the process of this service is multilayered. On one hand, it represents the forgiveness of any sin committed (especially for adults) and who knows if a baby has committed a sin, but in case, it is for this forgiveness. But that is not the main reason for the Baptism (after-all, reconciliation is available through the Prayers of the Priest after confession.) The main reason for Baptism is to return the soul of the person to a state of immortality. We are buried with Christ and rise with Him as He arose from the grave at Pascha.

Baptism is a personal Pascha.

 

[MariaRegina]

Yes infants are incapable of sinning because they are innocent, this has nothing to do with original sin we are born with. If people were born without sin, then why did the Catholics create the immaculate conception of Mary? And why did the EO Church reject it? If we were born without sin, than the immaculate conception would be true.

from GOARCH

"Of all saints, we honor exceedingly the Mother of our Lord because of the supreme grace and the call which she received from God. Though she was not exempt from original sin, from which she was cleansed at the time of the Annunciation, we believe that by the grace of God she did not commit any actual sin."

GOARCH is not infallible - that is not an infallible statement.

I know some Greek Orthodox Priests who disagree with that GOARCH statement.

 

[repentant]

If you are correct in asserting that we are born in a state of sin, and not just subject to sin (regardless of any conscious decision to sin), then it would have been impossible for the Theotokos to remain sinless between her birth and the time of her Annunciation as the Ecumenical Patriarch described and as you said you agreed with.

EP said this about the Theotokos.....

In consequence, according to the Orthodox faith, Mary the All-holy Mother of God was not conceived exempt from the corruption of original sin, but loved God above of all things and obeyed his commandments, and thus was sanctified by God through Jesus Christ who incarnated himself of her. She obeyed Him like one of the faithful, and addressed herself to Him with a Mother’s trust. Her holiness and purity were not blemished by the corruption, handed on to her by original sin as to every man, precisely because she was reborn in Christ like all the saints, sanctified above every saint.

Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.
Where does he say that the Theotokos remianed sinless before her Annunciation? If you read what he said, Her holiness and purity were not blemished by the corruption, handed on to her by original sin as to every man, precisely because she was reborn in Christ like all the saints, sanctified above every saint.

Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.....

He is saying that she became free of sin, and unblemished by corruption, when the Holy Spirit visited her and brought about the conception of the Lord within her, and she was reborn in Christ like all the saints. And also said she was not free from original sin.

You make sure you understand quotes you post.

 

[repentant]

GOARCH is not infallible - that is not an infallible statement.

I know some Greek Orthodox Priests who disagree with that GOARCH statement.

So what are you saying? You believe in what the Catholics believe, the immaculate conception? Or what about it don't you believe? That through the grace of God she did not sin?

I am beggining to wonder if I actually am among Orthodox...

 

[Akathist]

Again, the subject of this thread is Baptism.

 

[Rilian]

He is saying that she became free of sin, and unblemished by corruption, when the Holy Spirit visited her and brought about the conception of the Lord within her, and she was reborn in Christ like all the saints. And also said she was not free from original sin.

Yes, she is not free from the effects of Original Sin. That is not what you are saying.

You haven't addressed how the Theotokos remained sinless between her birth and the Annunction given your understanding of Original Sin.

You make sure you understand quotes you post.

Somehow I don't think the problem here is my lack of understanding.

I am beggining to wonder if I actually am among Orthodox...

Very nice.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

So we all agree that there, unless we can show otherwise, there are two upheld traditions in the Church of requiring a lifetime confession and NOT requiring it before baptism? I was hoping that others couls share documetation regarding this (apart from mere observations and what the Creed may or may not imply).

I do know that it was some priominent Orthodx Author (Bp. Kallistos??) who talked about baptism for the Orthodox as being PRIMARILY for entrance into the Church (replacing the Old Covenant of circumcision). Surely it forgives sins... if you've committed any... and for babies who have not in any way sinned it allows for the forgiveness of sins becuase it is, again, primarily as an entrance into the Church, by way of which we recieve forgiveness of sins through the sacraments and striving to live a life for God. So, it seems to be that the Creed was not trying to define all that Baptism is for, but rather clear up a misunderstanding (or erradicate a heresey) that was promintent at the time. But I don't know that. Because of this, I would love any documentation that talks about Baptism and its purpose(s) per the Early Church and thus the Orthodox Church, although I would like to see Early documentation). If anyone has that, it would be great.

Thanks,

John