Once Saved always Saved?

[PintoBean]

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17)

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21). Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14)

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9


People who deny OSAS use this vs:
1 Cor. 6:8-10
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

...but they forgot to keep reading to this vs:
“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor. 6:11)


Even Paul, the great apostle wrote:
I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Romans 7:18-20)

 

[BeeWrangler]

with all the above said can someone explane Mathew 7:21-23 for me? why would Jesus say Many will say Lord Lord but few will enter the kingdom of heaven?
Aswell can someone explane to me why it says in Rev that God would rather have us hot or cold than luke warm, for if we are luke warm he will spew us from his mouth?
To me it sounds like along with accepting Christ we also need to turn from sin. If I am a drunkard (and I was) and I accepted Jesus into my heart however I still drank and got drunk saying "I am saved and my sin has been forgiven" then I am in no wrong? However if I was a drunkard and accepted Jesus in my heart, and in that my love for Jesus grew stronger every day and I did not want to sin becasue I know it hurts God so I stopped, however now and then I stumbled and my lips touched the bottle, but the more I prayed and the stronger I become the less I let myself be tempted. Jesus accepts both the drunkard who does not fully try all he can to turn from his sin and stays luke warm, or the drunkard who does everything he can to turn from his drinking sin? I don't understand why there are so many things in the bible about having a changed heart and turning from sin if we can still sin and not be expected to turn from it? Why did Jesus bother teaching about the seeds that feel onto the rock and burned up in the sun? (why was speaking of "Christians" who did not change. If to be Christian one would have to accept Christ and that is it, then why does Jesus say in so many terms (like the ones I mentioned) that many Christians will fall? (because they think they are saved but are not, Jesus never knew them. These "Christians did not want to change their life for Jesus)
Anyway, these are questions if anyone would like to answer and show me Jesus was wrong when he said all these warnings about Christians falling

 

[Skala]

Jason,

Christ paid for all of the sins of those who believe in Him. That means past, present, and future sins. If one is covered in Christ's blood, he cannot "sin his way out" of salvation. Because those sins are paid for. Or else Christ did not accomplish salvation in full. Or else God is unjust for punishing for sins that Christ already satisfied justice for.

That being said, those who believe in Christ are new creatures. They have new hearts that struggle against sin, and war against it, and seek to put sin to death by the help of the Holy Spirit. They don't keep living their sinful life the way they always did prior to conversion.

Thus Jesus says "You will know them by their fruits..." A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

 

[RobertZ]

with all the above said can someone explane Mathew 7:21-23 for me? why would Jesus say Many will say Lord Lord but few will enter the kingdom of heaven?

Because those mentioned in that passage of Mathew were never saved in the first place, if you pay close attention you will notice that these people never trusting in Christ for salvation, they instead trusted in themselves and their works and neither will save.

As well can someone explane to me why it says in Rev that God would rather have us hot or cold than luke warm, for if we are luke warm he will spew us from his mouth?

This passage is dealing with a lukewarm church sir, not individual salvation.

To me it sounds like along with accepting Christ we also need to turn from sin.

The best thing you can do at this point is to forget about the notion that you are to accept Christ because that is a western doctrine and its a false doctrine at that.

Your turning from sin sir as I mentioned before comes after salvation, not as a means to get it!

However if I was a drunkard and accepted Jesus in my heart, and in that my love for Jesus grew stronger every day and I did not want to sin becasue I know it hurts God so I stopped, however now and then I stumbled and my lips touched the bottle, but the more I prayed and the stronger I become the less I let myself be tempted.

What you are describing here is a work of sanctification in the one whom has truly been saved, but yet again you are putting the cart before the horse.

(why was speaking of "Christians" who did not change.

Their is no such a thing as a Christian who does not change.

(because they think they are saved but are not, Jesus never knew them.

You answered your own question right here. Thats just it, many think they are saved but they are not saved and Jesus will clearly tell them in that day that he NEVER knew them.


Also sir I would like for you to think about something, if a true born again Child of God was able to lose his/her salvation then Jesus would have to find something else to say other than "Depart from me I NEVER KNEW YOU"

 

[JesusFreakJacob]

I haven't read everything but I just wanted to put in my two sense.

How does one become saved?

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So it seems pretty straight forward. We must believe in Jesus and receive Grace through Faith it is nothing we did to get salvation. We cannot earn it, therefore how could something we do cause us to lose salvation.

The main thing to see if you are truly saved it the fruits of your life. After salvation there MUST be a change and we MUST turn from sin and live our lives according to the will of God not our own.

2 Corinthians 5
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Shaun_S]

coming in late into this, sorry. But once saved does not mean always saved. the bible is clear that "who endures to the end will be saved". To believe that you can say "God I believe" then all is well is a big mistake!

Quotes From the bible

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall

There are more ....

Our battle is not against the flesh but against the spiritual. Satan goes about seeking those he may devour. it is Satan many purpose to take as many souls with him into a lost eternity.

through the sin this world has too offer, he wants more than anything to destroy the relationship we have with God. yes if we seek him for strength when we go through those tough times like Job did in the bible then he is faithful.

However because of our weakness in the flesh, it is not God that fails us but it is us that decides to move away from the things of God. I am sure most of us can name someone who has left the faith and their first love.

 

[RobertZ]

coming in late into this, sorry. But once saved does not mean always saved. the bible is clear that "who endures to the end will be saved". To believe that you can say "God I believe" then all is well is a big mistake!

The Bible teaches that those whom belong to God will absolutely endure to the end! its not by your enduring until the end that you are saved, its by God working through you to ensure that his Child will without a doubt endure unto the end! no and if's or but's about it!

If a Believer was able to fall away and not endure to the end then God could never make this promise "that he who began a good work in you will complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus" God plainly tells us that the work HE starts HE will complete! If anyone was able to lose their salvation because of something that they failed to do then God is a liar and I know better than that for my God keeps his word sir, im sorry if yours does not.

 

[Shaun_S]

i think you are missing the point, I am not saying you will lose your salvation if sin. Providing we ask forgiveness he is faithful and just to forgive.

However if we turn away from God completely then we will not be saved on that day. therefore he who endures until the end will be saved.

So you are telling me that if I knew God and was saved and I decided no longer to serve him or believe in him I will still be saved??

What makes you think your god is different to mine?

1. Possibility of falling away is a real threat to every child of God.
2. To think otherwise is a great danger! – 1 Cor. 10:12
3. Israel is a warning to Christians to remain faithful & true.

I. ISRAEL: OUR EXAMPLE – 1 Cor. 10:1-10.
A. Of Relationship With God – 1 Cor. 10:2; Gal. 3:27.
-Baptized into relationship with God’s prophet / Relationship with God’s Son.
B. As God’s Chosen People – Exo. 19:5-6; Psa. 135:4; 1 Pet. 2:9-10.
C. Israel’s Unbelief – Heb. 3:15-19.
1. Eyes fixed on Egypt instead of God & land of promise – Num. 11:4-6.
2. Fell in the wilderness due to their sinful & disobedient unbelief.
3. Our warning: 1 Cor. 10:6-10.
-Confidence of salvation must rest upon obedient faith, not wishful thinking!
D. Therefore, Take Heed Lest You Fall! – 10:12
-Look carefully & discern the warning that is given to us.
1. Israel thought she stood with God (chosen, saved, protected). Cf. Matt. 3:8-9 – Thinking we stand w/ God not same as actually standing with Him!
2. Israel did not take heed to herself. Mixed & mingled with worldly idolaters while complaining against God’s care & provisions - 1 Cor. 10:6-10; Psa. 106:13-15, 19-22, 24-25.
3. Israel fell. Consumed in wilderness – Psa. 106:26-27; Num. 14:26-35.

 

[Hammster]

i think you are missing the point, I am not saying you will lose your salvation if sin. Providing we ask forgiveness he is faithful and just to forgive.

However if we turn away from God completely then we will not be saved on that day. therefore he who endures until the end will be saved.

So you are telling me that if I knew God and was saved and I decided no longer to serve him or believe in him I will still be saved??

What makes you think your god is different to mine?

You are describing an impossible situation.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

 

[Shaun_S]

You are describing an impossible situation.

like the children of Israel? God did not spare the natural branches!

 

[RobertZ]

i think you are missing the point, I am not saying you will lose your salvation if sin. Providing we ask forgiveness he is faithful and just to forgive.

However if we turn away from God completely then we will not be saved on that day. therefore he who endures until the end will be saved.

No sir im not missing the point, you are. No true Child of God is going to be able to turn away completely from God and neither will you be able to find me even ONE example of anyone in the Bible who was saved and then turned away from God and lost their salvation.

You keep speaking of he who endures to the end and I agree but I disagree with your assumption that its up to us as to rather or not we endure unto the end when God makes it clear that he will finish the work that he started. God will see to it that if you truly belong to him you WILL endure, period.

So you are telling me that if I knew God and was saved and I decided no longer to serve him or believe in him I will still be saved??

No, im am telling you that if you profess to know God and then willfully deny him then you were never his to begin with and you prove that by your departing. You would be like the ones mentioned in scripture who professes to know God but who clearly has made a false profession.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

What makes you think your god is different to mine?

Because my God promises to finish the work that he started and when I stumble and fall he will come for me as a loving father comes to discipline his child.


When Jesus tells someone to depart that he NEVER knew them you can believe that Jesus really means Never when he says NEVER.

 

[RobertZ]

like the children of Israel? God did not spare the natural branches!

And why were they unable to enter the promised land? Unbelief.

 

[Shaun_S]

And why were they unable to enter the promised land? Unbelief.

thank you, you have confirmed my point!!!! paul talks about it in Hebrews Chapter 3

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So as Paul was warning them that were saved about "lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" a person who is saved is subjected to the deceitfulness of sin. that is why Paul is exhorting us a members of the body of christ to exhort one another daily!

Just as the children of Israel could not enter because of unbelief the same applies to to them that Paul is speaking about. you will not enter Gods Rest!

Rest my case on this one! if you want to believe that once saved always saved then I respect that. However remember Judge not less you be judged! I serve the same God as you! and to judge someone because they have a difference of opinion on matters of the bible is incorrect, and to assume that whatever you believe is 100% correct and if anyone else has a different view they must serve a different God to you is not healthy.

May the lord bless you in your walk with him, and keep you until that day.

Shaun

 

[RobertZ]

thank you, you have confirmed my point!!!! paul talks about it in Hebrews Chapter 3

I doesnt prove your point, that passage actually confirms the point that I have been making to you and disproves what you have been saying. How many believers are going to be kept out of heaven from Unbelief? None, there isnt such a thing as a believer in Christ who is kept out of heaven by unbelief, its impossible to have both sir and that is the point.

The children of Israel if you notice were constantly asking God for more and more and more proof and despite of all that God had done in front of them they still didnt believe! Its not that they once believed and then didnt believe, NO, They never believed in the first place!

a person who is saved is subjected to the deceitfulness of sin.

Well of course they are but not to the point of a born again child of God becoming unborn as you suggest.

Just as the children of Israel could not enter because of unbelief the same applies to to them that Paul is speaking about. you will not enter Gods Rest!

You wont find me disagreeing here, thats exactly what I have been telling you this whole time.

if you want to believe that once saved always saved then I respect that. However remember Judge not less you be judged!

I will believe it because the Bible teaches it and im not judging you, I am judging the false gospel that teaches a child of God can lose his salvation.

I serve the same God as you!

I realize that, I didnt mean it in an absolute literal sense when I said that sir, it was a metaphor but since I didnt make myself clear enough on that matter I apologize.



You still have yet to answer or address How Christ is going to tell someone who lost their salvation that He NEVER knew them nor have you found even one example of a single person in scripture who was born again but then became unborn again, what absurdity.

 

[Hammster]

like the children of Israel? God did not spare the natural branches!

Not all of Israel were elect.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

 

[Hupomone10]

Rest my case on this one! if you want to believe that once saved always saved then I respect that. However remember Judge not less you be judged! I serve the same God as you! and to judge someone because they have a difference of opinion on matters of the bible is incorrect, and to assume that whatever you believe is 100% correct and if anyone else has a different view they must serve a different God to you is not healthy.

hmm. I'm wondering why so defensive?

I don't judge you Shaun, I'm the last one to judge lol!

But I do judge what you believe as being in error, IMHO, if you believe that the spirit within you which was united with the Holy Spirit can be lost and have eternal life wrenched out of it once it has been made alive. I'm allowed to do that.

For myself, I do not want to believe "once saved always saved", I merely believe that is the counsel of God in His Word.

I have seen the destructiveness of doubts in both my own life and the lives of countless other Christians who wanted to faithfully follow the Lord but were paralyzed with doubts about salvation, doubts that kept them bound in a vicious circle of saved?-lost?-saved?-lost?-saved?-lost?-saved?-lost. Doubts that prevented the Holy Spirit from moving them beyond initial salvation and doing for them what He could do. Not talking about faith in a doctrine, but faith in a living Lord within me who by the presence of the Holy Spirit can cause me to walk in His statutes and lead me in victory over every known sin. But not if I don't believe He's there.

Blessings,
H.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

Sir, with all due respect your salvation is not based upon your ability to change yourself or how much effort you put into it for the flesh profits nothing and the sinner who is dead in his sins and trespasses cannot and WILL NOT do anything to please God.

The changed life, the fruits etc.... come only after one has been born again from Above. The changed life will flow naturally from someone who has been saved as will the bearing of Good fruit but its never to be used as a means to keeping or even earning your salvation because as im sure you are aware there is nothing that you can do to earn or even to keep yourself saved.

He is not saying a person tries to change their actions to GAIN or EARN salvation, what he is saying that if a person is TRULY saved, they will now have the ability to change their actions because the Holy Spirit will enable them to do so, which is TRUE saving faith. Dead faith does nothing. True faith results in a changed life. The person then tries to live in obedience because he IS saved, not to GET saved. This is exactly what James was tallking about. How can we show someone our faith? We can't. The only way to see someones faith is by their actions.

James 2:14 My friends, what good is it to say you have faith, when you don't do anything to show that you really do have faith? Can that kind of faith save you?

James 2:17 Faith that doesn't lead us to do good deeds is all alone and dead!

James 2:18-19 Suppose someone disagrees and says, "It is possible to have faith without doing kind deeds." I would answer, "Prove that you have faith without doing kind deeds, and I will prove that I have faith by doing them." You surely believe there is only one God. That's fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear.

James 2:26 Anyone who doesn't breathe is dead, and faith that doesn't do anything is just as dead!

A dead person will not ever be able to obey God, but when a person is saved, he is now able to because God has created a new person, a new heart and His Spirit now lives in him.

This is the point BeeWrangler is making. Saying you have faith and the continuing to sin without a changed life is DEAD FAITH.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, "We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles." But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"

 

[Skala]

A true Christian cannot fall away, because "God works in him to will and do his good pleasure".

In other words, a truly born again person with the Holy Spirit indwelling him would never will (desire) to fall away in the first place. And thus cannot.

A man can only do what he desires to do. That's how choices are made.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

A true Christian cannot fall away, because "God works in him to will and do his good pleasure".

In other words, a truly born again person with the Holy Spirit indwelling him would never will (desire) to fall away in the first place. And thus cannot.

A man can only do what he desires to do. That's how choices are made.

Exactly! So the question isn't so much that a person can lose their salvation, but rather, is the person truly born again?

Once Saved Always Saved is for TRUE the TRUE CHRISTIAN

 

[RobertZ]

hmm. I'm wondering why so defensive?

I don't judge you Shaun, I'm the last one to judge lol!

But I do judge what you believe as being in error, IMHO, if you believe that the spirit within you which was united with the Holy Spirit can be lost and have eternal life wrenched out of it once it has been made alive. I'm allowed to do that.

For myself, I do not want to believe "once saved always saved", I merely believe that is the counsel of God in His Word.

I have seen the destructiveness of doubts in both my own life and the lives of countless other Christians who wanted to faithfully follow the Lord but were paralyzed with doubts about salvation, doubts that kept them bound in a vicious circle of saved?-lost?-saved?-lost?-saved?-lost?-saved?-lost. Doubts that prevented the Holy Spirit from moving them beyond initial salvation and doing for them what He could do. Not talking about faith in a doctrine, but faith in a living Lord within me who by the presence of the Holy Spirit can cause me to walk in His statutes and lead me in victory over every known sin. But not if I don't believe He's there.

Blessings,
H.

Thank you brother, this is pretty much what I have been trying to get across although im sure at times I can sound harsh but I believe that is due to the fact as you pointed out my severe doubts about salvation and Gods ability to both save me and keep me saved.

Naturally after having gone through such a deep struggle im going to probably be a bit defensive about it and If I have offended anyone then I apologize, especially to you Shaun.