Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

I address this question in my Sinless Perfectionism thread.

Enjoy reading.


...

Jason
Why would I go to threads of your to be enlightened?

You reject the gospel message of grace, and mostly fail to correctly interpret scripture

 

[stuart lawrence]

The bible states the letter kills. Better to trust in the bible

 

[stuart lawrence]

A child brought up by loving parents would inevitably sometimes break their rules. Between the time they broke their parents rules and said sorry for doing so would they be threatened with expulsion from the family home?

It seems some believe your earthly parents love you far more than God does

 

[stuart lawrence]

Or do loving parents tell their children if they don't perfectly obey their rules they will throw them out of the family home?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, I decided not to talk to you for a while. I will be praying for you.

Peace be unto you.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sorry, I decided not to talk to you for a while. I will be praying for you.

Peace be unto you.


...

I would pray for yourself Jason.

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you

 

[stuart lawrence]

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing

Gal2:21

 

[HatGuy]

May I present a thought for everyone?

Clearly this is very difficult and controversial theology. Clearly there are two sides who hold very strong and opposite views.

The OSAS side believes that there are verses, which when read without context, seem to clearly indicate we are saved by faith and faith alone independent of any other righteousness. Taking these verses to heart, they then use a "cannot lose salvation" presupposition to interpret verses that seem to indicate Christians can go to hell.

The non-OSAS side believes that there are verses, which when read without context, seem to clearly indicate that after accepting Jesus, some sins can send us to hell - thus we can lose salvation if we persist in them or die before we repent of them. Taking these verses to heart, they then use a "can lose salvation" presupposition to interpret the verses that seem to indicate we are saved by faith alone.

Both sides cannot be correct. The reason why I tend to side with OSAS is because every other religion is like the non-OSAS side in a practical sense. The muslims pray for forgiveness in the same way as what non-OSAS believers say we must do to keep our salvation (see: How to repent from sins and ask for Allah’s forgiveness ).

What has made Christianity so special to me is that I believed my relationship with God does not depend on what I've done, but what Jesus has done for me, therefore I love God and I'm free to worship him through works - NOT for salvation - but out of love. If I am to pray for forgiveness for not doing the right works because if I don't I will go to hell, that robs me of the joy of my works - I want to do works because I love God, not because I will lose salvation if I don't. No longer am I obeying God because I love him alone, I am obeying God out of fear of losing salvation - precisely the motivation of the muslim and other religious people. Christianity would lose it's uniqueness. However - just because believing in non-OSAS robs Christianity of its uniqueness/power, doesn't mean that non-OSAS is false. Truth is truth - if we can REALLY lose our salvation, then it is a fact of life that we must live with whether we like it or not. How i feel about it is irrelevant.

Personally I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, either I believe OSAS and possibly risk going to hell for wrong theology (and evidently more than 50% of people responding to this thread are believing the wrong thing too), or I believe I can lose salvation and I am robbed of my joy of doing works for love of God rather than for avoidance of hell.

Thanks for this.

I think all your reasoning here makes perfect sense.

I believed in OSAS for many years, but recently got convinced by G
I realised that the Christian message is a word of faith. (Romans 10:8). I came to this realisation while trying to deal with sin, because trying harder was not working. To cut a long story short, a story that includes putting the Law in its rightful place, I came to realise my core difficulty was belief. I loved Jesus, but struggled to believe in his power and authority to change me. Then I began to work on the idea that the Christian life is primarily a progression of faith, not of virtue. The result of increased faith is increased sanctification, not the other way around, and the goal we work towards is more faith in Jesus. Working towards that goal brings several other results, including sanctification.

However, this made me have a niggling feeling that if faith was the core of the good news, and if faith brought a change of life, and if faith was a living thing, then by persistently and deliberately living in unbelief you could come close to losing your salvation. Or perhaps lose it completely. I thought of the Pharisees and the main issue there, I thought of Hebrews 6 and how all the OSAS views there I knew were not satisfying, and I thought how works and fear still drove me because I wanted to not miss out on God's heavenly rewards (didn't believe you could lose salvation, but could lose reward). The rewards doctrine I was finding not very helpful to stir me to good works in joy.

I began to adjust my OSAS views a little by little to make it more about faith. Then I decided to see what Arminius really taught, because I had a hunch I was going the same way as him (and that might have bothered me). Turns out what he taught is a far cry from what I wad taught he taught! Since I had already pretty much not believed in predestination (in my heart, although I still held it outwardly), the reasoning and scriptural basis for prevenient Grace was easy for me to believe, as it turned out I had made those conclusions for myself anyway. Classical Arminianism - not the Arminianism of the 1800's and later - says that sin does not make you lose your salvation, but only a wilful unbelief. This makes faith and Christ more "living". Believing it this way has helped to steer clear are from works righteousness and focus on nourishing my faith instead, because it has become the centre of my Christian doing.

That's my story. I believe this makes the Christian faith different to other religions because none of them are about faith, all about works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith leads to action because God commands us to do certain things.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7).

If Noah decided to not act, he would have perished like everyone else. But he believed God and his actions proved that he truly believed the Lord.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now, if you make up your own works or commands, that is one thing.
But if God commands you to do something according to His Word, and you don't do it, then that is a lack of faith in His Word in what He desires for you to do. It takes faith to believe God's Commands enough to obey them.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hatguy said:

Sin does not make you lose your salvation, but only a wilful unbelief. This makes faith and Christ more "living". Believing it this way has helped to steer clear are from works righteousness and focus on nourishing my faith instead, because it has become the centre of my Christian doing.

That's my story. I believe this makes the Christian faith different to other religions because none of them are about faith, all about works.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this.

I think all your reasoning here makes perfect sense.

I believed in OSAS for many years, but recently got convinced by G
I realised that the Christian message is a word of faith. (Romans 10:8). I came to this realisation while trying to deal with sin, because trying harder was not working. To cut a long story short, a story that includes putting the Law in its rightful place, I came to realise my core difficulty was belief. I loved Jesus, but struggled to believe in his power and authority to change me. Then I began to work on the idea that the Christian life is primarily a progression of faith, not of virtue. The result of increased faith is increased sanctification, not the other way around, and the goal we work towards is more faith in Jesus. Working towards that goal brings several other results, including sanctification.

However, this made me have a niggling feeling that if faith was the core of the good news, and if faith brought a change of life, and if faith was a living thing, then by persistently and deliberately living in unbelief you could come close to losing your salvation. Or perhaps lose it completely. I thought of the Pharisees and the main issue there, I thought of Hebrews 6 and how all the OSAS views there I knew were not satisfying, and I thought how works and fear still drove me because I wanted to not miss out on God's heavenly rewards (didn't believe you could lose salvation, but could lose reward). The rewards doctrine I was finding not very helpful to stir me to good works in joy.

I began to adjust my OSAS views a little by little to make it more about faith. Then I decided to see what Arminius really taught, because I had a hunch I was going the same way as him (and that might have bothered me). Turns out what he taught is a far cry from what I wad taught he taught! Since I had already pretty much not believed in predestination (in my heart, although I still held it outwardly), the reasoning and scriptural basis for prevenient Grace was easy for me to believe, as it turned out I had made those conclusions for myself anyway. Classical Arminianism - not the Arminianism of the 1800's and later - says that sin does not make you lose your salvation, but only a wilful unbelief. This makes faith and Christ more "living". Believing it this way has helped to steer clear are from works righteousness and focus on nourishing my faith instead, because it has become the centre of my Christian doing.

That's my story. I believe this makes the Christian faith different to other religions because none of them are about faith, all about works.

Your story is scripturally spot on
You say that sin cannot make you lose your salvation but wilful unbelief can.

Only the Holy Spirit could convict you of such truth. The natural mind would never accept it.

Paul states numerous times no one will be justified / declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law.
If you observe the law you do not commit sin, for sin is transgression of the law(1John3:4)

Therefore sin cannot make you lose your salvation, for you are not justified by not committing sin/ observing the law. It is obvious from your posts you are a true christian, therefore such knowledge would NOT/ could NOT bring you to believe you have a licence to sin by the truth of grace, for you have been born again.

Concerning losing salvation through wilfull unbelief, absolutely:

But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back i will not be pleased with him
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved
Heb10:38&39

Absolutely( again) the christian religion I set apart for it I all about faith, whereas other religions are about works.
I would suggest for in those religions they have not been born again.
It is a pleasure to read your posts brother
God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is written,

“...Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” (Job 28:28).​

How can one depart from evil if they are declaring they cannot help but to do evil again in the future?

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).​

What is the whole duty of man?

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is written,

“...Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” (Job 28:28).​

How can one depart from evil if they are declaring they cannot help but to do evil again in the future?

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).​

What is the whole duty of man?

...

The duty of man is to love God( the greatest commandment) love your neighbour and have faith I Christ.
But you say you cannot love God till you perfectly obey him.
Therefore, you cannot obey the greatest commandment of all Jason can you

That is where your theology leads you, into contradiction

 

[ToBeLoved]

Personally I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, either I believe OSAS and possibly risk going to hell for wrong theology (and evidently more than 50% of people responding to this thread are believing the wrong thing too), or I believe I can lose salvation and I am robbed of my joy of doing works for love of God rather than for avoidance of hell.

This is where real 'faith' comes in. Real faith is believing God is who ever He says He is and He does what He promises.

Those who believe OSAS, IMHO have more faith in that we trust God with EVERYTHING. No backup plan. It is ALL at the feet of our Savior, Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy Name!

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is written,

“...Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” (Job 28:28).​

How can one depart from evil if they are declaring they cannot help but to do evil again in the future?

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).​

What is the whole duty of man?

...

No Christian made a new creation by Jesus Christ is evil. Our sins are forgiven and we are Christ's not evil.

Would you consider yourself to be evil and part of these verses? I surely do not.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Actually, if you cannot love God until you perfectly obey Him, you never can love God. For you will always fail to obey the greatest commandment, while you strive to perfectly obey in order to love God!

 

[HatGuy]

Your story is scripturally spot on
You say that sin cannot make you lose your salvation but wilful unbelief can.

Only the Holy Spirit could convict you of such truth. The natural mind would never accept it.

Paul states numerous times no one will be justified / declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law.
If you observe the law you do not commit sin, for sin is transgression of the law(1John3:4)

Therefore sin cannot make you lose your salvation, for you are not justified by not committing sin/ observing the law. It is obvious from your posts you are a true christian, therefore such knowledge would NOT/ could NOT bring you to believe you have a licence to sin by the truth of grace, for you have been born again.

Concerning losing salvation through wilfull unbelief, absolutely:

But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back i will not be pleased with him
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved
Heb10:38&39

Absolutely( again) the christian religion I set apart for it I all about faith, whereas other religions are about works.
I would suggest for in those religions they have not been born again.
It is a pleasure to read your posts brother
God bless

Thanks so much for this Super encouraging, appreciate it!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jason
Why would I go to threads of your to be enlightened?

You reject the gospel message of grace, and mostly fail to correctly interpret scripture

I agree. We participate in these threads in spite of others contributions. We tap into Christ's strength to do it. Displaying longsuffering the fruit of the Spirit to participate with people whose theology is so wrong, out of love that they may learn correct theology.

 

[Aldebaran]

Or do loving parents tell their children if they don't perfectly obey their rules they will throw them out of the family home?

This is actually a pretty good comparison and I was hoping Jason would have replied to it. We are told that when we are saved, we become children of God; fellows heirs with Christ. He also said somewhere (I'm too lazy to look it up) that if our earthly fathers love us enough to do good things for us and look out for us, how much more will our Heavenly Father do so? But imagine living in a home on earth where every time we break a rule or disobey, we have to hear, "If you do that again, I'll throw you out of the house and disown you!" I'm sure that's not the home environment Jesus would have created if He had lived out His life on earth and started a family here.

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is actually a pretty good comparison and I was hoping Jason would have replied to it. We are told that when we are saved, we become children of God; fellows heirs with Christ. He also said somewhere (I'm too lazy to look it up) that if our earthly fathers love us enough to do good things for us and look out for us, how much more will our Heavenly Father do so? But imagine living in a home on earth where every time we break a rule or disobey, we have to hear, "If you do that again, I'll throw you out of the house and disown you!" I'm sure that's not the home environment Jesus would have created if He had lived out His life on earth and started a family here.

Thanks for your post.
I loved my parents. When I broke their rules, or didn't act as I should, I had no rest, no peace until I told them I was sorry for what I had done. I didn't for one moment think they would throw me out if I didn't apologise, but I wanted all to be well between us again, and i wanted my peace back. So I was always going to say sorry. I couldn't remain unrepentant, that would have been impossible.
I view our relationship with God the same way