Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bible Highlighter]

No born again christian can believe sinning is ok.

Then one will not deny Sinless Perfectionism because to say it is not true is a future declaration that one is going to sin. They cannot help but to sin. It's okay. Everybody does it. But saying you will sin again in the future is not the truth. God's ways are higher than our ways. God says be ye holy as I am holy. Oh, but wait. That statement from God cannot actually mean that, right? His plain words in this case have to mean something else because they go against what you believe.


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[stuart lawrence]

First, Jesus said He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. Meaning, Jesus was not only fulfilling the Law with His obedience to the Law all the way up until His death, but He was fulfilling the Law itself into it's true and ultimate potential. Love. For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Second, 1 John 5:16-18 says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Baptism is a command that is not a sin unto death (1 Peter 3:21). Yet, murder, adultery, lying, and coveting are sins that lead unto the second death (which is the Lake of Fire) (Revelation 21:8).


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The law was always about , love God and love your neighbour under the oc and nc.

 

[stuart lawrence]

People of many different religions desire to obey a standard of morality, as well. But they cannot do so without Jesus Christ.


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The standard the law sets is perfection.
Dont lower the standard!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul says,

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).


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Yep if you wilfully choose such a lifestyle you cannot Inherit the kingdom of God.
The born again christian however in their heart wants to obey God

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then one will not deny Sinless Perfectionism because to say it is not true is a future declaration that one is going to sin. They cannot help but to sin. It's okay. Everybody does it. But saying you will sin again in the future is not the truth. God's ways are higher than our ways. God says be ye holy as I am holy. Oh, but wait. That statement from God cannot actually mean that, right? His plain words in this case have to mean something else because they go against what you believe.


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John himself tells us if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth I not in us

Living a holy life does not mean sinless perfection

As you yourself commit sin I do wonder why, according to what you state on thus website you wish to condemn yourself as frequently as you do

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The law was always about , love God and love your neighbour under the oc and nc.

This is true. But the Law was not brought to it's fullest completion in love until the New Covenant. For the Law of sin and death (i.e. the Law of Moses) was attached with capital punishment. You could die physically for breaking the Law. Now, we are under grace. There is no capital punishment in God's Word for breaking His laws now. This is love. God is being merciful. In addition, Jesus said, I give you a new commandment, love one another as I have loved you. Jesus is saying we are to love as He loved. Jesus was loving in ways that the OT saint could not love. They went to war, render an eye for an eye, etc.

The Law of the Spirit of Life has made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This is the freedom.


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul says,

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).


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And why quote Paul?
You reject his core gospel message

As you must believe he preached a false gospel message I would have thought you would choose not to quote him

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The standard the law sets is perfection.
Dont lower the standard!

I am not. Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.
Only with Jesus Christ we can be perfect. Without Him we can do nothing.


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[stuart lawrence]

This is true. But the Law was not brought to it's fullest completion in love until the New Covenant. For the Law of sin and death (i.e. the Law of Moses) was attached with capital punishment. You could die physically for breaking the Law. Now, we are under grace. There is no capital punishment in God's Word for breaking His laws now. This is love. God is being merciful. In addition, Jesus said, I give you a new commandment, love one another as I have loved you. Jesus is saying we are to love as He loved. Jesus was loving in ways that the OT saint could not love. They went to war, render an eye for an eye, etc.

The Law of the Spirit of Life has made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This is the freedom.


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You contradict yourself for you say disobedience to the law leads to death.

Once again, your understanding of scripture I false.

Is Paul stating I gal5:18:

If you perfectly obey the law you are not under the law.

No he isn't!

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am not. Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.
Only with Jesus Christ we can be perfect. Without Him we can do nothing.


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So you now claim to be as perfect as God himself?

You need to understand scripture, not just quote it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you don't feel I am properly addressing your points, please say so.
A person comes to Christ. Gods love is demonstrated by the fact Jesus died for us sinners. He took our punishment upon himself.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

Why is this not a licence to sin?

Because the NC comes in two parts.
The law God desires you to keep is written on your mind and placed on your heart by the Holy Spirit at conversion. It is the defining moment of you life. Gone is the ability to sin in ignorance or without conscience. You cannot go against what is on your heart without feeling great sorrow for doing so. Your conscience must be seered when you wilfully transgress the law placed on your heart. Hence the licence to sin is removed by you not being under a law of righteousness. It is impossible for anyone who has That law placed within them to believe they can happily sin as much as they want if they are not under a law of righteousness.
Jesus will only be your saviour from sin if the law God desires you to keep has been placed on your heart. For he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to obey his father.
The christian is a work in progress all their life. God deals with the most important things that need dealing with first obviously, then reveals more and more things that need dealing with throughout your christian life. Wilfull sin if you like is giving into sin when you have been set free of it by God. When we dont then follow what in our hearts we want to do and give in to what the flesh wants to do we get our consciences seered by doing so
You in your heart dont want to offend the letter for you have been born again, but you cannot faultlessly obey the letter and thereby never sin. The only way you get true peace is by accepting Christ us your justification before God, you die to a law of righteousness. No licence to sin for you have chosen your master and the law is on your heart.
But though you have been been born again in your heart and mind, you have not in your flesh. Hence the eternal struggle of spirit against flesh

But just saying your sorry is not enough. There has to be a change in one's life. One cannot hold onto the even one sin (done on occasion) and say they are in God's good graces. It doesn't work like that. 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.


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[stuart lawrence]

So you now claim to be as perfect as God himself?

You need to understand scripture, not just quote it

Aim to be perfect in attitude and following after Christ. You will not be perfect in your flesh, as John tells us

 

[stuart lawrence]

But just saying your sorry is not enough. There has to be a change in one's life. One cannot hold onto the even one sin (done on occasion) and say they are in God's good graces. It doesn't work like that. 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.


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So you don't love Christ for you do not try and obey all of his commands
Just stating your belief

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I want to explore what you mean exactly by "Jesus does the good work in you". Can you elaborate in as much detail as possible? I agree that Jesus enables us to do good works, but I sense what I think that means is different to what you think it means. Please explain it like a step by step "manual". Thanks.

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?
Is it God?
Or is it the believer?
Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Aim to be perfect in attitude and following after Christ. You will not be perfect in your flesh, as John tells us

Try looking up the word "perfect" at Blue Letter Bible within the New Testament. It may shock you to find how many times it appears in relation to the saints.


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[stuart lawrence]

Try looking up the word "perfect" at Blue Letter Bible within the New Testament. It may shock you to find how many times it appears in relation to the saints.


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Paul tells us to AIM for perfection. That is different from having aquired perfection.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Try looking up the word "perfect" at Blue Letter Bible within the New Testament. It may shock you to find how many times it appears in relation to the saints.


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And of course, as for matt5:19 that you brought forth. You don't have to be perfect to enter heaven do you

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul tells us to AIM for perfection. That is different from having aquired perfection.

This is simply not true. You can find the word "perfection" being used as a reality for the saints in my list of verses on Defending Sinless Perfectionism here:

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.



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[Bible Highlighter]

And of course, as for matt5:19 that you brought forth. You don't have to be perfect to enter heaven do you

I address this question in my Sinless Perfectionism thread.

Enjoy reading.


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[stuart lawrence]

This is simply not true. You can find the word "perfection" being used as a reality for the saints in my list of verses on Defending Sinless Perfectionism here:

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.



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Quote me a verse that states a christian must be sinless in their flesh.

As you are not sinless in your flesh, Thi is just more if demanding of others than you achieve in your own life.