Once and for all - Law vs Grace

[AFrazier]

I am still very much confused by this.
Are we under the law still or grace?

- It seems to me at least on the outset that Matthew 7:21-22 says that we are still under the law:

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These people who are seemingly Christians (they believe in the Lord), are getting REJECTED from heaven because they have worked 'lawlessness'.

- Then we have Ephesians 2:8-9, which speaks for grace:

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

- To me these two verses appear to be at odds with each other. Why? You either live as a worker of lawlessness (doing whatever you want) or a worker of law (keeping the commandments, living a sanctified life, loving God and one another, etc)

You can't be neither.

So if Lawlessness gets you cut from heaven, where is the grace?
And if grace is sufficient, why are those people cut from heaven? How does this not mean then that they had to work their way to salvation (by being more righteous)?

Doesn't it seem like we still must strive to be workers of the law?

The law has always existed, if not necessarily in its written form. The conscience fulfilled the role of the law prior to its written existence. By the knowledge of good and evil, all have sinned. Therefore, under the law, all are condemned. But the law was introduced to provide the means of substitutiary atonement. A self-conceived law of conscience can't redeem you. And we all needed redeeming since God declared in the garden that man would die if he ate from the tree. So by means of the law, Jesus died in our stead, using the fine print in the law to satisfy our debt to sin. We are now new creations in Jesus Christ, formally dead to the law.

But again, the law has always existed. And it exists still. It is personified by the two great commandments. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. We are not otherwise bound to the law of Moses. Paul is clear that if we subject ourselves to said law, we make ourselves transgressors all over again, and Christ's death holds no value for us. We would be fallen from grace.

So no. We do not need to keep the law in the strictest sense. We are in a state of "every man doing what is right in his own eyes." Love and right-doing are our guides to behavior. Sin is what we know to be wrong, and there are a number of passages to support this; "why am I judged by another man's conscience," or "all things are lawful," etc.

Some may disagree with this summation, but it's 100% scriptural. We don't need to keep the law of Moses, except as it concerns its principles. That's what the "spirit" of the law is. The principle. And we are not called to be ministers of the letter, but of the spirit.

 

[AFrazier]

So then how would that reconcile with James' "faith without works is dead," sir?

That would really be for you to determine and understand, wouldn't it? He didn't give an opinion. He just quoted two scriptures. If you see ambiguity, perhaps you should investigate it.

 

[AFrazier]

Secondly don't PRETEND you ain't doing the same thing right here and right now. Discerning true theology is judging by definition.

Theology is the study of God. Discernment is not judgment.

 

[AFrazier]

Yes the Law of Love is the original Shema commanded unto the Israelites. The Circumcision of the Heart is this very thing for a reborn Christian. To love God with all of your heart soul and might.

He is DOING it, since he RECEIVED the Seal of Promise, the indwelling Holy Spirit first experienced en masse in the upper room. Even trickled down today, this is the jump and the LEAP to do Shema.

Remember to love God and take His love to heart every day. This is the New Covenant of God. By and through the Christ, the only one who DID Shema perfectly from the beginning to the end of his life.

Not everyone studies Hebrew culture. Most have no idea what Shema is. God is not the author of confusion. If you're going to edify your brothers and sisters, why don't you do it with plain language that everyone understands, rather than making yourself look smart at the expense of others' spiritual education and edification.

 

[AFrazier]

We are sinners and it is not possible for us to fulfill the Law as God requires. God requires absolute perfection and we violate God's Law in deed, intention, thought, and desire on a daily basis. Anyone who believes that they can fulfill the Law of God either grossly misunderstands their own sinful condition or grossly underestimates God's true requirements.

The Bible disagrees with you. Many times, in fact. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is an achievable lifestyle. Perhaps you should study a bit more before criticizing.

 

[AFrazier]

It makes me chuckle when people say it's possible to live sinless lives. Like was mentioned above, we sin in thought, intention, word, and deed. Not only that, but if we know what we should do and don't do it, that's sin. The Bible says anything that isn't done in faith is sin. And people think they can get to a point, here in this life, when they don't/won't sin? Good luck with that! You'll need it.

You give sin too much credit. I challenge you to produce scripture to demonstrate that thoughts are sins, desires are sins, and that every day innocuous actions unrelated to faith are sins. What we do that is wrong is sin. What we attempt to do that is wrong is sin. What we do not do that we should have done is sin. And what defines what we should or should not do is love. If you think you cannot act according to the principle of love, then you have a serious problem. Please reread 1 John. If you don't have love, then you don't really have God. If you have God, then you have love, and the sinless lifestyle you chuckle about is not only obtainable, but expected.

 

[AFrazier]

It is vital to realize that most references to "law", especially by Paul are specifically references to the Law of Moses. In such cases, Paul is not, repeat not, referring to a general moral law.

And remember, too, that only Jews are under the law of Moses.

Technically, we are all under the law of Moses. Paul says that whatsoever the law says, it says to them that are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world will become guilty before God.

Furthermore, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is a function of the law itself. If we deny the submission of each believer to the covenant of the law, we simultaneously deny them the salvation of the cross, which is empowered by the law.

 

[AFrazier]

and the Word was God, no definite article.

Just curious ... why did you point out this particular fact? That God has no definite article in this scripture? I was trying to understand what you were trying to prove or demonstrate by mentioning it, but it's apparently going over my head. Is it an inside comment to someone involved in the discussion who is JW?

 

[newlightseven]

I am still very much confused by this.
Are we under the law still or grace?

- It seems to me at least on the outset that Matthew 7:21-22 says that we are still under the law:

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These people who are seemingly Christians (they believe in the Lord), are getting REJECTED from heaven because they have worked 'lawlessness'.

- Then we have Ephesians 2:8-9, which speaks for grace:

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

- To me these two verses appear to be at odds with each other. Why? You either live as a worker of lawlessness (doing whatever you want) or a worker of law (keeping the commandments, living a sanctified life, loving God and one another, etc)

You can't be neither.

So if Lawlessness gets you cut from heaven, where is the grace?
And if grace is sufficient, why are those people cut from heaven? How does this not mean then that they had to work their way to salvation (by being more righteous)?

Doesn't it seem like we still must strive to be workers of the law?

Christ totally fulfilled the law, so once we accept him we are clothed with his righteousness. That does not mean one can go and do whatever they want to do because God will not be mocked or allow the precious body of Jesus treated in an unworthy manner. So we are saved because of Jesus, and are also to try to live good lives because of Jesus. Hope that helps

 

[Tree of Life]

The Bible disagrees with you. Many times, in fact. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is an achievable lifestyle. Perhaps you should study a bit more before criticizing.

Love indeed is the fulfillment of the law. And we are called to love God and love one another as we love ourselves. And we fall miserably short of that demand every day. Do you believe that you, by and large, have perfectly fulfilled the command to love God and neighbor today?

 

[AFrazier]

The Law is not a means of justification or salvation for us.

We are under grace in the sense that we are awarded the full blessings of obedience not for our own obedience, but for the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are under the Law, but we are reckoned as fully obedient sons because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

The law is not a direct means of justification or salvation, but it is through the law that the power of the cross is able to accomplish salvation, and through Christ, justification.

I would also argue that rather than being reckoned as fully obedient, we are rather reckoned dead, and then brought back alive as new creations. The price had to be paid. Although he paid the price on our behalf, it was done as a ransom. So rather than being considered obedient, his death was credited to our account, and our debt is considered paid in full.

 

[Tree of Life]

I challenge you to produce scripture to demonstrate that thoughts are sins, desires are sins, and that every day innocuous actions unrelated to faith are sins.

Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9, Titus 1:15, Romans 8:7, Colossians 1:21, Genesis 8:21, Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 2:2-3, Romans 14:23 to name just a few.

 

[AFrazier]

Love indeed is the fulfillment of the law. And we are called to love God and love one another as we love ourselves. And we fall miserably short of that demand every day. Do you believe that you, by and large, have perfectly fulfilled the command to love God and neighbor today?

I believe that most days I do right by those around me. I don't make any claim to sinless perfection. I do err from time to time. However, I do not believe that I err as often as some believe we do. I find that sin is the exception rather than the rule, whereas many seem to think it's the other way around.

The confusion, at least where the topic of love is concerned, may be as simple as a misconception of what love means. Some may be under the impression that it's an emotion, when it is actually an action. We don't sit around "loving" people all day. We love them doing right by them in deed rather than word.

And I do believe I do that. I do that every time I have the opportunity to sell someone a repair on their car they don't need, but choose instead to tell them it was just a fuse and let them have a nice day. I maintain the principle of love every time someone asks for a few dollars and I give it if I have it, though I would rather keep it for myself. I live it when someone does wrong by me, and I forgive it, offering to be their friend still, though they sinned against me. I show it when I help an old lady with her bags. There are situations day in and day out where love is a decision, and I make it.

 

[Tree of Life]

The law is not a direct means of justification or salvation, but it is through the law that the power of the cross is able to accomplish salvation, and through Christ, justification.

I would also argue that rather than being reckoned as fully obedient, we are rather reckoned dead, and then brought back alive as new creations. The price had to be paid. Although he paid the price on our behalf, it was done as a ransom. So rather than being considered obedient, his death was credited to our account, and our debt is considered paid in full.

Indeed the death of Christ is credited to us and so we are dead to sin. Our debt has been paid. But we don't just need a "clean slate". We need a perfect score of righteousness. Jesus also supplies this. His righteous life is credited to us as well so we are "alive to God".

 

[Tree of Life]

I believe that most days I do right by those around me. I don't make any claim to sinless perfection. I do err from time to time. However, I do not believe that I err as often as some believe we do. I find that sin is the exception rather than the rule, whereas many seem to think it's the other way around.

How do you know when you have sinned against God?

The confusion, at least where the topic of love is concerned, may be as simple as a misconception of what love means. Some may be under the impression that it's an emotion, when it is actually an action. We don't sit around "loving" people all day. We love them doing right by them in deed rather than word.

Indeed. According to John, love is defined by the law of God (10 commandments, for short). 1 John 5:3 - "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." When you violate a command of God you violate love for God and neighbor.

 

[Winken]

Simplistically put, the old man is under the Law, the new man is under the Gospel.

It's not Law or Gospel, it's Law and Gospel. But each does something different, the Law cannot save us, the Law cannot make us righteous; the Law reveals that we are sinners, the Law condemns us in our sin. The Law kills and condemns, it cannot save or justify the sinner. Which is why it is only by the Gospel that we are saved, justified; for what the Law could not do God has done by sending His Son, and by the mercy of God in Christ we have been freely justified by His grace, having received the righteousness of Christ as a gift.

A helpful distinction, I believe, can be found in Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, "The Law says Do this, and it is never done. Grace says, Trust this and it is done already."

-CryptoLutheran

Powerful !!

 

[expos4ever]

Technically, we are all under the law of Moses. Paul says that whatsoever the law says, it says to them that are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world will become guilty before God.

I am always surprised when people claim that Gentiles were or are under the Law of Moses; I suggest it is manifestly clear from the Scriptures that they were not and are not. And I would be surprised if any reputable scholar claimed otherwise.

Anyway, in the first parts of Romans, Paul is recounting the history of mankind up to the time of Jesus. So his references to being under the Law of Moses - and only Jews were under the law - lie in the past. If you wish, I can present the details as to why that bit in Romans 3 that you are referring to is part of the history that Paul is recounting.

 

[AFrazier]

Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9, Titus 1:15, Romans 8:7, Colossians 1:21, Genesis 8:21, Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 2:2-3, Romans 14:23 to name just a few.

Genesis 6:5 says the imagination of man's heart was evil, but it also says that his wickedness was great in the earth. Thought is coupled with action.

Jeremiah 17:9 says that the heart is deceitful and wicked. It does not directly equate it to sin.

Titus 1:15 is speaking specifically of unbelievers.

Romans 8:7 speaks of the carnal mind, which is not subject to the law of God. In context, we are no longer in that category. See Romans 8:6-9 for a fuller context. In Christ, we are no longer of the flesh, but of the spirit.

Colossians 1:21 says that we were alienated and enemies in our mind by wicked works. Again, thought is coupled with action.

Genesis 8:21, like Jeremiah 17:9, does not quantify thought as sin.

Matthew 15:19, in context, is that the mouth speaks according to the abundance of the heart. It's what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man (Matthew 15:18).

Ephesians 2:2-3 specifically says "... fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind." Thought coupled with action.

Romans 14:23 is a much bigger topic than the simple interpretation being given to it. Paul is discussing a behavior considered unlawful, and saying that it is lawful if you are of faith. In other words, if you are doing something that is lawful by the spirit of the law, but unlawful by the written law, if you are not living according to the spirit, but according to the letter, then it is sinful. But that, again, is a much bigger topic than can be discussed simply.

James discusses the same issue as all of these. Temptation comes from lust (desire), and desire leads to sin. Sin then leads to death. As God told Cain, though his countenance was fallen and he was wroth, if he did well, he would be accepted. But if he did not do well, sin lied at the door (Genesis 4:6-7).

So I don't recognize any of the passages cited as demonstrating that thoughts, desires, or innocuous actions are sin.

 

[Tree of Life]

@AFrazier I'm just gonna let the Scriptures stand. I think you know that you're wrong.

 

[AFrazier]

How do you know when you have sinned against God?

I just know. I think we all do. Conviction warns you that what you are thinking about doing is not the right thing to do. Call it conscience, conviction, the law of God on our hearts. Take your pick. But I am at peace when I do right. I am not at peace when I consider doing wrong. And peace is restored when I reject doing the thing I knew would be wrong to do.

Indeed. According to John, love is defined by the law of God (10 commandments, for short). 1 John 5:3 - "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." When you violate a command of God you violate love for God and neighbor.

I would say it's the other way around (1 John 3:22-23), but it amounts to the same thing. If you are loving, then you are keeping the commandments. If you are keeping the commandments, then you are loving. The biggest difference is that if you are trying to keep the commandments, you end up a transgressor. If you try to live according to love, then you fulfill the law. See James 2:8-12. If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. ... but whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one, he is guilty of all.