Once and for all - Law vs Grace

hopeandgrace

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I am still very much confused by this.
Are we under the law still or grace?

- It seems to me at least on the outset that Matthew 7:21-22 says that we are still under the law:

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.

These people who are seemingly Christians (they believe in the Lord), are getting REJECTED from heaven because they have worked 'lawlessness'.

- Then we have Ephesians 2:8-9, which speaks for grace:

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

- To me these two verses appear to be at odds with each other. Why? You either live as a worker of lawlessness (doing whatever you want) or a worker of law (keeping the commandments, living a sanctified life, loving God and one another, etc)

You can't be neither.

So if Lawlessness gets you cut from heaven, where is the grace?
And if grace is sufficient, why are those people cut from heaven? How does this not mean then that they had to work their way to salvation (by being more righteous)?

Doesn't it seem like we still must strive to be workers of the law?
 
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hopeandgrace

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Just throwing this into the discussion -

Could it be that the 'grace' that is mentioned is the Messiah's work on the cross which breaks the dominion of sin over our lives? ie, that we are not slaves to sin anymore and we thus have the power to walk away from temptations?

Is that what it means?
 
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SkyWriting

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I am still very much confused by this.
Are we under the law still or grace?

- It seems to me at least on the outset that Matthew 7:21-22 says that we are still under the law:

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.

These people who are seemingly Christians (they believe in the Lord), are getting REJECTED from heaven because they have worked 'lawlessness'.

- Then we have Ephesians 2:8-9, which speaks for grace:

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

- To me these two verses appear to be at odds with each other. Why? You either live as a worker of lawlessness (doing whatever you want) or a worker of law (keeping the commandments, living a sanctified life, loving God and one another, etc)

You can't be neither.

So if Lawlessness gets you cut from heaven, where is the grace?
And if grace is sufficient, why are those people cut from heaven? How does this not mean then that they had to work their way to salvation (by being more righteous)?

Doesn't it seem like we still must strive to be workers of the law?

We live under the grace of Jesus who paid the price for all sin once and for all.
In gratitude we "fear" and respect the Father for giving His Son for us
and follow the Fathers desires.

----------------------------------------> ----- Read below.
 
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nothead

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ok so after reading this:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/36/t/is-it-possible-to-live-without-sinning

I believe it is possible to live a sinless life and keep the ten commandments. The devil is trying to lie to us and tell us otherwise.

No it is not possible to have a sinless life. That is the whole POINT of redemption by propititation.

But it also means your Judgement is not SET from the time you believed. Belief or faith is ONGOING til the end of your days.
And you STILL have only one hope in the endgame. That Jesus WILL redeem you by mediation.
 
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nothead

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We live under the grace of Jesus who paid the price for all sin once and for all.
In gratitude we "fear" and respect the Father for giving His Son for us
and follow the Fathers desires.

----------------------------------------> ----- Read below.
This "once and for all" is not for YOU sir.

The Lukewarm will be spewed. The ones who sin what God calls irrevocable sin will be denied.
The ones who give lip service to Jesus "as Lord" saying "Lordy Jesus my friend and helper" might feel the wrath of the Living God.

Many warnings were given even the Elect, those of the Promise. This was for Jews and this is for us.
 
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nothead

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Just throwing this into the discussion -

Could it be that the 'grace' that is mentioned is the Messiah's work on the cross which breaks the dominion of sin over our lives? ie, that we are not slaves to sin anymore and we thus have the power to walk away from temptations?

Is that what it means?
Means you are "clean" enough to start Covenant with God.

What else could it mean?
 
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MWood

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Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am still very much confused by this.
Are we under the law still or grace?

- It seems to me at least on the outset that Matthew 7:21-22 says that we are still under the law:

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.

These people who are seemingly Christians (they believe in the Lord), are getting REJECTED from heaven because they have worked 'lawlessness'.

- Then we have Ephesians 2:8-9, which speaks for grace:

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

- To me these two verses appear to be at odds with each other. Why? You either live as a worker of lawlessness (doing whatever you want) or a worker of law (keeping the commandments, living a sanctified life, loving God and one another, etc)

You can't be neither.

So if Lawlessness gets you cut from heaven, where is the grace?
And if grace is sufficient, why are those people cut from heaven? How does this not mean then that they had to work their way to salvation (by being more righteous)?

Doesn't it seem like we still must strive to be workers of the law?

Simplistically put, the old man is under the Law, the new man is under the Gospel.

It's not Law or Gospel, it's Law and Gospel. But each does something different, the Law cannot save us, the Law cannot make us righteous; the Law reveals that we are sinners, the Law condemns us in our sin. The Law kills and condemns, it cannot save or justify the sinner. Which is why it is only by the Gospel that we are saved, justified; for what the Law could not do God has done by sending His Son, and by the mercy of God in Christ we have been freely justified by His grace, having received the righteousness of Christ as a gift.

A helpful distinction, I believe, can be found in Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, "The Law says Do this, and it is never done. Grace says, Trust this and it is done already."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Shempster

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We are under both and we cannot attain the promises of the Father and the Son without following the law....including observing the sabbath. There is one caveat tho...

its not the Jewish law we are obligated to...Paul spent a lot of time trying to convince folks that the Jewish laws were for a purpose, place and time but that time has passed. We now are obligated to obey the law of Christ which is the law of LOVE.
All we do, say, think, etc., MUST line up with the law of love.
The Sabbath is really important, but its not Sunday. Its not Saturday either. Its EVERY single day! Every minute of every day in fact. When we fully embrace Christ and receive HIS circumcision (that is the cutting away of the old sinful nature) then we enter into HIS REST. This "rest" notion is extremely important. He rested after creating and we can rest after we have been re-created in Him. We no longer have the struggle against the flesh and that easily lets us overcome the world and the kingdom of darkness as well.
So when we live and breathe HIS LOVE, leaving behind all fear and doubt then we are faithfully observing the sabbath and fulfilling it.

When you get this and it becomes real to you then all of the sudden certain things you thought were sinful actually are not and many things you used to think are harmless actually are evil and pull you away from God.
When you truly have the spirit living inside your temple then He teaches you everything and tells you what is right or good and what is bad or unhealthy. You no longer will need a rule book and quite honestly you may begin to disagree with many common teachings and customs. Remember to respond in LOVE to everything and not to object to others even though you see the world differently.
 
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com7fy8

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Are we under the law still or grace?
Our Apostle Paul says the law has served to expose sin (Romans 7:7), in order to show us our need for Jesus and to bring us to Jesus > Galatians 3:24. So, if we are in Jesus we are not law-less, but we have been law-helped. But only Jesus can do all that we really need. Jesus Christ's grace takes us beyond and to better than what the law has been able to do.

I will offer > first, grace includes how God has mercy on a person, including bringing a person to Jesus and saving the person. Then grace is God's action in us to change our character . . . our nature . . . into how Jesus is in love > Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17-18. And while God in us is doing this, He also is personally guiding every one of us >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

By the way, Hope and Grace, I now consider that "lawlessness" could mean having no sort of law, at all. This would include not having how a dictator uses oppressive police in order to control people. And it could include having no social concern, at all, about what others are feeling. But if we have compassion, this is a different kind of law, in our nature, not only in writing :)
 
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nothead

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Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So then how would that reconcile with James' "faith without works is dead," sir?
 
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nothead

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Simplistically put, the old man is under the Law, the new man is under the Gospel.

It's not Law or Gospel, it's Law and Gospel. But each does something different, the Law cannot save us, the Law cannot make us righteous; the Law reveals that we are sinners, the Law condemns us in our sin. The Law kills and condemns, it cannot save or justify the sinner. Which is why it is only by the Gospel that we are saved, justified; for what the Law could not do God has done by sending His Son, and by the mercy of God in Christ we have been freely justified by His grace, having received the righteousness of Christ as a gift.

A helpful distinction, I believe, can be found in Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, "The Law says Do this, and it is never done. Grace says, Trust this and it is done already."

-CryptoLutheran

The Grace of God is inherent in the Holy Spirit of God. Indwelling the saints, this impetus and power to love God "apart from the law" is the very thing Luther not being pentecostal apparently missed.
 
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nothead

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Our Apostle Paul says the law has served to expose sin (Romans 7:7), in order to show us our need for Jesus and to bring us to Jesus > Galatians 3:24. So, if we are in Jesus we are not law-less, but we have been law-helped. But only Jesus can do all that we really need. Jesus Christ's grace takes us beyond and to better than what the law has been able to do.

I will offer > first, grace includes how God has mercy on a person, including bringing a person to Jesus and saving the person. Then grace is God's action in us to change our character . . . our nature . . . into how Jesus is in love > Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17-18. And while God in us is doing this, He also is personally guiding every one of us >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

By the way, Hope and Grace, I now consider that "lawlessness" could mean having no sort of law, at all. This would include not having how a dictator uses oppressive police in order to control people. And it could include having no social concern, at all, about what others are feeling. But if we have compassion, this is a different kind of law, in our nature, not only in writing :)


Compassion, or as the KJV puts it, charity is really the agape love of God. Given to, and given back to.

First to God and then to our fellow man. Christians are supposed to be IMPREGNATED or biblically INDWELT with this. It should be automatic and in ways not rendered unto text. New ways, faith works, even the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
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nothead

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We are under both and we cannot attain the promises of the Father and the Son without following the law....including observing the sabbath. There is one caveat tho...

its not the Jewish law we are obligated to...Paul spent a lot of time trying to convince folks that the Jewish laws were for a purpose, place and time but that time has passed. We now are obligated to obey the law of Christ which is the law of LOVE.
All we do, say, think, etc., MUST line up with the law of love.
The Sabbath is really important, but its not Sunday. Its not Saturday either. Its EVERY single day! Every minute of every day in fact. When we fully embrace Christ and receive HIS circumcision (that is the cutting away of the old sinful nature) then we enter into HIS REST. This "rest" notion is extremely important. He rested after creating and we can rest after we have been re-created in Him. We no longer have the struggle against the flesh and that easily lets us overcome the world and the kingdom of darkness as well.
So when we live and breathe HIS LOVE, leaving behind all fear and doubt then we are faithfully observing the sabbath and fulfilling it.

When you get this and it becomes real to you then all of the sudden certain things you thought were sinful actually are not and many things you used to think are harmless actually are evil and pull you away from God.
When you truly have the spirit living inside your temple then He teaches you everything and tells you what is right or good and what is bad or unhealthy. You no longer will need a rule book and quite honestly you may begin to disagree with many common teachings and customs. Remember to respond in LOVE to everything and not to object to others even though you see the world differently.

Yes the Law of Love is the original Shema commanded unto the Israelites. The Circumcision of the Heart is this very thing for a reborn Christian. To love God with all of your heart soul and might.

He is DOING it, since he RECEIVED the Seal of Promise, the indwelling Holy Spirit first experienced en masse in the upper room. Even trickled down today, this is the jump and the LEAP to do Shema.

Remember to love God and take His love to heart every day. This is the New Covenant of God. By and through the Christ, the only one who DID Shema perfectly from the beginning to the end of his life.
 
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nothead

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You mean Grace and Love Done Once and for All, the Finished Grace on the Cross, sir.

Grace is ongoing, everyday from temporal things to the eternal things, some seeds flourishing, some choked off, some in sandy soil and some dying on the vine. No FINISHED anything since we have a life to live, COVENANT to make and a God to give to. Don't hand me this jive turkey OSAS lukewarm murky THEOLOGY sir. It stinks to high heaven and is dung to all men.

Who said NOTHEAD ever said he don't judge, sir. He judging you right now.
And HE will be Judged too. We judge WITH the view of our own Judgement.

Secondly don't PRETEND you ain't doing the same thing right here and right now. Discerning true theology is judging by definition.
 
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SkyWriting

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You mean Grace and Love Done Once and for All, the Finished Grace on the Cross, sir.

Grace is ongoing, everyday from temporal things to the eternal things, some seeds flourishing, some choked off, some in sandy soil and some dying on the vine. No FINISHED anything since we have a life to live, COVENANT to make and a God to give to. Don't hand me this jive turkey OSAS lukewarm murky THEOLOGY sir. It stinks to high heaven and is dung to all men.

Who said NOTHEAD ever said he don't judge, sir. He judging you right now.
And HE will be Judged too. We judge WITH the view of our own Judgement.

Secondly don't PRETEND you ain't doing the same thing right here and right now. Discerning true theology is judging by definition.

True theology is found here---> (For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. It aint so murky if you pay attention )
 
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Once men were given the 'written' law. Even then, God instructed His children that it would not always be that way. That one day, He would write His laws upon the 'hearts' of His children.

That is where we are today. For those that are 'born again', God has written His laws upon their 'hearts'.

But what many seem to find hard to grasp is this: we have 'freedom of choice'. When the 'written law' was the law of God's children, it is clear that they had 'freedom of choice' or there would have been no penalty for disobedience.

No different today. Even when God's laws become written upon the hearts of His children, they are still able to ignore or turn away.

When we factor this in, we find that 'faith without works' is dead. It's not a matter of what what you believe any more or less than what you 'do' that defines your beliefs. For to 'say' something means little or nothing if what you 'do' doesn't reflect what you 'say'.

We establish our faith by what we 'do', not what we 'say'.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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