On the Christian Perception of Our Shared Reality

[Stephen3141]

(I'll see if this passes the site's basic filtering guidelines.
I am concerned about what Christians perceive as our shared reality, lying, and the moral-ethical
effects of embracing conspiracy theories.)

When Trump demands that all who get his political support, must uphold his lie that the 2020 election was stolen with massive fraud (despite Trump's inability to find any substantive evidence for this), you MAY think that this is merely a perverse pagan aspect of American politics. OR, merely an artifact that non-Christian Americans hold who have no idea what reality is, or how to demonstrate that a personal opinion/belief is actually TRUE.

BUT,
given that many Trump supporters have swallowed huge conspiracy theories (some of them believed by ridiculous and twisted and oppressive groups through history), American Christians must come to a different conclusion.

American (and worldwide) Christians must conclude:

1 there is a shared reality
2 misrepresenting this shared reality, is what the Bible calls "LYING"
3 in Judaism and Christianity, LYING is a serious sin, and no continual liar will enter the kingdom of God
4 This means that Christians have a moral-ethical OUGHT to be very careful about what they call "reality", and have a moral-ethical OUGHT to carefully demonstrate that a proposition/opinion/belief is TRUE (according to evidence from our shared reality), before declaring it as a fact.

Donald Trump, despite his massive financial resources, has been unable to find ANY credible evidence that the 2020 election was stolen by massive fraud. His dozens of lawsuits trying to establish this assertion, have been rejected by judges as not containing ANY substantive and relevant evidence for Trump's claim.
---------- ----------

An average non-Christian American, who may not feel any moral-ethical OUGHT to carefully search out which opinions/belief/gossip are TRUE, and which are FALSE, may respond with a dismissing "So what?"

BUT, for Christians, this topic of embracing conspiracy theories, without carefully researching what is TRUE, is a matter of embracing continual lying, or rejecting patent systems of lies. This choice involves their future, after the final judgment, for ever.

The anti-intellectual Protestant Fundamentalists hardened their rejection of the intellect, and formal logic, during the European Enlightenment, and the emergence of modern science (100 years before Darwin lived). They rejected the goodness of the intellect, as a theological "slogan".

The embrace of conspiracy theories by many anti-intellectual Christians, underlines how a terribly dysfunctional theological trend, can lead to views of our shared reality, that have taken complete leave of our shared reality.

Anti-intellectual non-Christians, also fall into the same epistemological pit. The anti-intellectual blind, are trying to lead the anti-intellectual blind.

I am trying to point out that THIS IS NOT A SIDE ISSUE, THAT DEALS WITH MERELY PERSONAL PREFERENCES. Anti-intellectual Americans, who are not Christians, but who embrace conspiracy theories, suffer the same crippling effects as many of Trump's religious supporters.

Continual lying -- misrepresenting our shared reality -- will get us condemned at the final judgment. As the Bible presents to us, "There will be no liars in the kingdom of heaven."

This is not a simple case of political preferences, or personal opinions. Donald Trump is claiming an alternate reality, for which he has no evidence.

Christians have a moral-ethical OUGHT, NOT to embrace that other fantasy reality.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/11/politics/trump-johnson-election-falsehoods-analysis/index.html

 

[Freth]

By that standard you cannot embrace either side, because they both lie. By toeing one party line or the other, you are supporting two sides of the same coin. No matter which side is up, there is lying, sanctimony, outrage and rhetoric. Therefore, it makes sense to me, as a Christian, to not be invested in any political party.

I used to be passionate about politics, looking to political outcomes, and decrying the other side's blatant evil and hypocrisy on social media. A much better use of time is looking for the soon return of Jesus and investing in that outcome.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

By that standard you cannot embrace either side,

"Embrace" and" vote for" need not be the same valence.
Most of us will cast a vote holding our nose. All the more reason to hold both sides as accountable as we can.
It will be the lessor of two evils. But I must agree with OP. Trump takes it all out of the ball park.

 

[PloverWing]

The anti-intellectual Protestant Fundamentalists hardened their rejection of the intellect, and formal logic, during the European Enlightenment, and the emergence of modern science (100 years before Darwin lived). They rejected the goodness of the intellect, as a theological "slogan".

Setting aside the specific question of the former president, I have been wondering about exactly the question you raise here. I suspect that the consistent mental habit of rejecting the intellect, education, scholarship, and science has destructive long-term consequences, forming the mind in a way that makes one vulnerable to falsehood, because so many important epistemological tools have been discarded.

 

[durangodawood]

By that standard you cannot embrace either side, because they both lie. By toeing one party line or the other, you are supporting two sides of the same coin. No matter which side is up, there is lying, sanctimony, outrage and rhetoric. Therefore, it makes sense to me, as a Christian, to not be invested in any political party.

I used to be passionate about politics, looking to political outcomes, and decrying the other side's blatant evil and hypocrisy on social media. A much better use of time is looking for the soon return of Jesus and investing in that outcome.

Sure, dont get invested.

But I reject that we throw up our hands at ever being able to judge when a particular movement has lost its grip on basic reality - because "everybody lies". Sometimes a particular ideological sect gets invested in un-reality. It happened with communism. It can also happen on the "right" or whatever you want to call our contemporary conspiracy-populism.

 

[Fantine]

When you reference "our shared reality" it almost infers that there are "two" realities--one for Christians and one for non-Christians.
Or perhaps one for Republicans and one for Democrats.
There is only one reality, and one truth. It is our responsibility to discern this truth to the best of our abilities, to reject falsehood, and to vote accordingly.
It is a citizens' responsibility to vote, and to say, "both parties lie" or "both parties have some positions that are immoral" is a cop out. An anti-abortion voter, for example, must never delude him or herself by believing that his/her chosen party is perfect...it is their responsibility to be "critical" voters and push their legislators to be 100% moral.
And vice-versa. A progressive voter who supports the other party because they favor a stronger social safety net, sensible immigration policy, action on climate change, etc. must also tell their legislators that they should not support abortion on demand.

 

[timothyu]

1 John 2:
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Mom never knew much about platforms. She always voted for who she thought was a, "good man." (No women in that day). She always trusted a good person to do the right thing, leastwise as best they were able. Mom may have been on to something.

 

[timothyu]

By that standard you cannot embrace either side, because they both lie. By toeing one party line or the other, you are supporting two sides of the same coin. No matter which side is up, there is lying, sanctimony, outrage and rhetoric. Therefore, it makes sense to me, as a Christian, to not be invested in any political party.

Exactly. However it is interesting to watch as yet another end of days scenario unfolds as we see the world going to a global unelected government once again, this time under the banner of Corporatism.. For those interested in believing they have a say in human governance then would it not be best for them to vote for those wishing to maintain sovereignty over supporting globalization such as we see today with WEF alumni who seem to have the upper hand and rule the roost in western civilization today as the build back better for themselves? It does set up the rock for an anti-Christ civilization and the perfect platform for the Adversary. Do we stand by and watch or at least shoe allegiance, bnot to the governments of man, but to the governance of God?

 

[Pommer]

Mixing religion and politics ruins both.

 

[timothyu]

Mixing religion and politics ruins both.

Yet they have been entwined for 1700 years instead of being the counter-cultures they were meant to be.

 

[Hazelelponi]

(I'll see if this passes the site's basic filtering guidelines.
I am concerned about what Christians perceive as our shared reality, lying, and the moral-ethical
effects of embracing conspiracy theories.)

When Trump demands that all who get his political support, must uphold his lie that the 2020 election was stolen with massive fraud (despite Trump's inability to find any substantive evidence for this), you MAY think that this is merely a perverse pagan aspect of American politics. OR, merely an artifact that non-Christian Americans hold who have no idea what reality is, or how to demonstrate that a personal opinion/belief is actually TRUE.

BUT,
given that many Trump supporters have swallowed huge conspiracy theories (some of them believed by ridiculous and twisted and oppressive groups through history), American Christians must come to a different conclusion.

American (and worldwide) Christians must conclude:

1 there is a shared reality
2 misrepresenting this shared reality, is what the Bible calls "LYING"
3 in Judaism and Christianity, LYING is a serious sin, and no continual liar will enter the kingdom of God
4 This means that Christians have a moral-ethical OUGHT to be very careful about what they call "reality", and have a moral-ethical OUGHT to carefully demonstrate that a proposition/opinion/belief is TRUE (according to evidence from our shared reality), before declaring it as a fact.

Donald Trump, despite his massive financial resources, has been unable to find ANY credible evidence that the 2020 election was stolen by massive fraud. His dozens of lawsuits trying to establish this assertion, have been rejected by judges as not containing ANY substantive and relevant evidence for Trump's claim.
---------- ----------

An average non-Christian American, who may not feel any moral-ethical OUGHT to carefully search out which opinions/belief/gossip are TRUE, and which are FALSE, may respond with a dismissing "So what?"

BUT, for Christians, this topic of embracing conspiracy theories, without carefully researching what is TRUE, is a matter of embracing continual lying, or rejecting patent systems of lies. This choice involves their future, after the final judgment, for ever.

The anti-intellectual Protestant Fundamentalists hardened their rejection of the intellect, and formal logic, during the European Enlightenment, and the emergence of modern science (100 years before Darwin lived). They rejected the goodness of the intellect, as a theological "slogan".

The embrace of conspiracy theories by many anti-intellectual Christians, underlines how a terribly dysfunctional theological trend, can lead to views of our shared reality, that have taken complete leave of our shared reality.

Anti-intellectual non-Christians, also fall into the same epistemological pit. The anti-intellectual blind, are trying to lead the anti-intellectual blind.

I am trying to point out that THIS IS NOT A SIDE ISSUE, THAT DEALS WITH MERELY PERSONAL PREFERENCES. Anti-intellectual Americans, who are not Christians, but who embrace conspiracy theories, suffer the same crippling effects as many of Trump's religious supporters.

Continual lying -- misrepresenting our shared reality -- will get us condemned at the final judgment. As the Bible presents to us, "There will be no liars in the kingdom of heaven."

This is not a simple case of political preferences, or personal opinions. Donald Trump is claiming an alternate reality, for which he has no evidence.

Christians have a moral-ethical OUGHT, NOT to embrace that other fantasy reality.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/11/politics/trump-johnson-election-falsehoods-analysis/index.html

When mainstream media in the United States began misrepresenting things Trump said during his speeches back in 2015 it was just boldfaced lies, and about things anyone who cared to go to the original video recording of the speech could verify.

Honestly, that was probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in my life.... The audacity of lying to people who could just turn around and see for themselves was just like, really? Ya know?

So at any rate this left a HUGE whole where trustworthy news once sat.

I do agree, a lot of craziness started appearing in that hole and some people fell for it. I think sometimes it affected the elderly most, but there's some kid's too.

Whenever I hear someone I know start talking about something that was incorrectly reported, right or left, I try and correct them because I have more time, the knowledge, and usually the ability to suss out the truth... (God Willing!)

I think people should be properly informed - I agree with you here.

But there's a hole where news used to exist... It's the largest part of the problem now.

However, I must correct you that Trump "demands" that anyone believe anything he does. Trump is Trump. I voted for him twice and I certainly don't always agree with him... But that doesn't make him a liar or a poor president.

In order to call something a lie, you must first believe there's an absolute truth in the matter.

There's truth, but neither side has the absolute and complete truth of it, only what they believe that truth to be.

Do I blame Trump for calling out election interference?

No .. I don't think it happened at the voting booth or the voting machines, but it was more than real, in both elections, worse in 2020 than in 2016.

Do I believe that Trump believes every word he's saying? Yes... But if my mother-in-law or friend or neighbor comes to me telling me the same I would correct them and if Trump said the same I'd disagree to his face ..

But does it change the way he's going to affect US policy once in office?

No.... Just another task force to investigate and make sure our stuff can't be hacked etc. That's no big deal.

Either side of the aisle should be happy to see it regardless of how it comes out. Making sure voting is secure is a good thing...

It's kind of a nothing burger because it doesn't affect anything in the real world. A few more dollars making sure our elections are secure at most. We spend money on worse things every day.

 

[FireDragon76]

When mainstream media in the United States began misrepresenting things Trump said during his speeches back in 2015 it was just boldfaced lies, and about things anyone who cared to go to the original video recording of the speech could verify.

Honestly, that was probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in my life.... The audacity of lying to people who could just turn around and see for themselves was just like, really? Ya know?

So at any rate this left a HUGE whole where trustworthy news once sat.

I do agree, a lot of craziness started appearing in that hole and some people fell for it. I think sometimes it affected the elderly most, but there's some kid's too.

Whenever I hear someone I know start talking about something that was incorrectly reported, right or left, I try and correct them because I have more time, the knowledge, and usually the ability to suss out the truth... (God Willing!)

I think people should be properly informed - I agree with you here.

But there's a hole where news used to exist... It's the largest part of the problem now.

However, I must correct you that Trump "demands" that anyone believe anything he does. Trump is Trump. I voted for him twice and I certainly don't always agree with him... But that doesn't make him a liar or a poor president.

In order to call something a lie, you must first believe there's an absolute truth in the matter.

There's truth, but neither side has the absolute and complete truth of it, only what they believe that truth to be.

Do I blame Trump for calling out election interference?

No .. I don't think it happened at the voting booth or the voting machines, but it was more than real, in both elections, worse in 2020 than in 2016.

Do I believe that Trump believes every word he's saying? Yes... But if my mother-in-law or friend or neighbor comes to me telling me the same I would correct them and if Trump said the same I'd disagree to his face ..

But does it change the way he's going to affect US policy once in office?

No.... Just another task force to investigate and make sure our stuff can't be hacked etc. That's no big deal.

Either side of the aisle should be happy to see it regardless of how it comes out. Making sure voting is secure is a good thing...

It's kind of a nothing burger because it doesn't affect anything in the real world. A few more dollars making sure our elections are secure at most. We spend money on worse things every day.

When did mainstream media lie about something Trump said? Trump plainly said that most people crossing the border, for instance, were murderers and rapists, despite having no good evidence to support that notion. It's not hard to conclude from that, he has prejudice against non-whites and is probably a racist.

And that's just one example.

Look, Trump is not owed fealty just because he is White Christian American's new "messiah". Just because the mainstream media refused to get on board with Trump's lies doesn't mean that the media was singling him out for special treatment. If anything, the mainstream media was too kind to Trump, throwing him softballs constantly, which frequently backfired.

 

[Hans Blaster]

When did mainstream media lie about something Trump said? Trump plainly said that most people crossing the border, for instance, were murderers and rapists, despite having no good evidence to support that notion. It's not hard to conclude from that, he has prejudice against non-whites and is probably a racist.

It was the central theme of his campaign announcement speech in *2015*. (It also included the weird and false notion that other nations are "sending" their worst people intentionally.) This has been a continuous theme of Trump ever since. (And it was before running, too.)

 

[o_mlly]

Trump plainly said that most people crossing the border, for instance, were murderers and rapists ...

Kindly cite your source or recant.

 

[FireDragon76]

Kindly cite your source or recant.

You aren't the Inquisition.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/index.html

 

[FireDragon76]

Setting aside the specific question of the former president, I have been wondering about exactly the question you raise here. I suspect that the consistent mental habit of rejecting the intellect, education, scholarship, and science has destructive long-term consequences, forming the mind in a way that makes one vulnerable to falsehood, because so many important epistemological tools have been discarded.

That's a big cause. The other is this country's unaddressed legacy of racism that is still ongoing. Now that alot of the older generations have gotten even older and no longer participate in gainful employment that would bring actual social responsibility, many have become loud and obnoxious about how much things were supposedly better in the "good old days" when American culture was more seemingly homogeneous and less racially diverse.

However, I think alot of this can be rolled up simply into "white Christian nationalism" of the old nativist and anti-intellectual sort, since it encompasses both anti-intellectualism and racism/xenophobia.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, in the good old days many people had the perception that their immediate surroundings were less diverse and more comfortable than they are now. They appear to have attributed their comfortable state to their adherence to what they think of as Christian virtue. Their mistake was to project this state of affairs onto the society as a whole.

 

[o_mlly]

You aren't the Inquisition.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/index.html

An intellectually honest person would have prefaced that comment, "According to CNN, Trump plainly said that most people crossing the border, for instance, were murderers and rapists." People then could then make a judgement as to the veracity of your comment considering the source.

Leaving aside the known bias of your source, the 6-year-old CNN report does not say what you posted. You wrote, Trump "plainly said ... most people (illegal immigrants) ... were murderers and rapists". But the word "murderers" does not appear at all in the article and the adjective "most" is never used to characterize the flood of immigrants as rapists.

It is just this kind of reckless and false attributions that have and continue to divide our country. Please stop it.

 

[Hazelelponi]

When did mainstream media lie about something Trump said? Trump plainly said that most people crossing the border, for instance, were murderers and rapists, despite having no good evidence to support that notion. It's not hard to conclude from that, he has prejudice against non-whites and is probably a racist.

Amnesty international did a report back in, I don't know, maybe around 2012 or 2013 I don't remember exactly, that 60% of all the WOMEN crossing our southern border were victims of rape ON their way to the US border.

Another group did another study and claimed the number was far higher, at around 80% - but they were pretty far left so I usually used the Amnesty international report when debating.

I used argue online about discouraging that type of "immigration" (if we can call it that) all the time and this was always my main argument to use because the number of raped women is utterly horrific. (I am a woman and my daughter was once raped, not the same situation certainly but the amount of emotional trauma tied to rape is really really really high, and we cannot want this for anything.)

I have always said we needed a better way to get those who need to come here, and just completely shut that border, that way people aren't making this journey that has no good end on any level.

You have to understand something. These arguments - we were using them for years before Trump ran for office.

Trump has twice quoted my husband directly, and this women are raped argument? That's been mine...

Trump used, when in front of the camera the farther left report which said 80% instead of Amnesty international's 60% - but at the time he said it I dragged both reports back out and started arguing it all over again.

Because these women are raped, and it's really and truly horrific. We can't prevent the rape itself, but we can keep women safer by discouraging the trek and looking for better ways to get people who need to be here, here.

Trump has been promoting the policies your average person has been online arguing for, for decades.

Not only that, but he's getting his arguments directly from your average American who used to debate the left a lot... and we AREN'T racist.

He may not always use the "exact right" study (for instance I thought Amnesty was better to use because the other was too far left) and his off the cuff word choice is sometimes poorly chosen, but Trump connects to people because he says what they say - and then went forth trying to make some positive policy decisions.

It's never racist to say the truth. But it's evil to sit and twist it into something it's not.

We've been talking and talking and talking about this stuff for years and no one listened until Trump did.

And honestly, if all these years of debates didn't make sense to you, they never ever will.

If Trump uses a Muslim woman's debate against an open southern border and is slammed by all as a racist then I doubt there's any hope left for us.

And a Muslim woman I was when I began making those arguments.

So all it says to me is anyone who doesn't agree with the crazy far left gets a lie painted on them and that's just the way they are seen, regardless of what they say or do.

"I don't think women should be raped" "Racist pig white supremacist blah blah blah!"

Get over it because I don't want women raped.

And by the way, this is why everyone on the right knows it's us you hate, us the average American, and not Trump. He's only repeating what he has seen us say... Us, as a voting block.

It would be a red flag except he followed through as best as I think he could when he was in office. Better than anyone I've ever voted for in my life.

But when you say Trump is a racist for bringing up the fact that the majority of woman are raped trying to get here, who make it across our border, your actually calling me a racist for saying it needs to stop.

And it breaks my heart every time. Because not wanting people hurt used to be a good thing no matter who you talk to. Now it's just more "evidence" of what? Your hatred of me.