Old Testament Diet - Was God being a Bully?

[SAAN]

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


Some will cite verses 4 and 5 as proof that anything you might eat is sanctified by prayer. However the context is found in verse 3: "... meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving ...." Unclean animals were not created to be eaten by man, there is no way that God can ever sanctify something He explicitly condemns as an abomination in Lev. 11.

Something cant be unclean for 4000 yrs and the next day when Jesus dies on the cross, it is all of a sudden clean.

Would you eat a rat ?
Would you eat a tarantula spider?
Would you eat a rattle snake?
Would you eat a possum?
Would you eat a roach?
Would you eat a racoon?

Theses are all listed as unclean and no amount of prayer can make them clean, just like all other listed unclean foods.

----------------
Also to counter the upcoming verses that will be posted out of their context.

Romans 14
- Is about not judging one another and the whole issue Paul was talking about is fasting and the feast days, not about eating whatever or Saturday/Sunday worship.

Acts 10
-Peters vision with the clean and unclean animals was about not calling gentiles unclean and has nothing to do with eating whatever you please, explained in Acts 10:28.

Col 2:16
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

-Is saying do not let anyone judge you for keeping the sabbath and feast days, not dont let anyone judge for for breaking Gods commands and eating whatever you please.

 

[Strong in Him]

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

What did it mean to an Israelite to have a holy conduct?

It meant obeying his law - the one he had given to them directly when he saved them from slavery and death from Egyptian slave drivers.
God, their Saviour, had led them to his holy mountain, given them his word and law, made a covenant with them and said that if they kept that covenant they would be his people.

What does it mean to me to have holy conduct? It means listening to, obeying and following God who sent his Son to be my Saviour and rescue me from sin and death. I am reconciled to God through Jesus, who became sin for me (2 Corinthians 5:21) and who death brings me peace with God (Romans 5:1) eternal life, (John 3:16; John 3:36; 1 John 5:12) and forgiveness of sin (Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:9)
"Holy" means "set apart" and we are also called not to conform to the world, (Romans 12:2; 1 John 2:15-17.) The reason we are not to conform to the world is that we are God's children, (Romans 8:16-17; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 John 3:1). We cannot have, or serve, two masters; we are no longer under the influence, or authority, of Satan who brings eternal death, but the Lord Jesus who gives eternal life.

If the answer to those questions is different, then why did verse 16 quote from the OT where it talks about keeping dietary laws?

God said "be holy because I am holy" - that still applies, God is still, and will always be, holy.
But that doesn't mean that we are expected to think, "that verse comes from a book which talks about OT food laws, therefore Peter must be saying that holiness means keeping those laws and we can't be holy otherwise." If that's what Peter meant, he would have said so. He, and other NT writers, would have made absolutely sure that Gentiles knew that in order to be considered holy by God, they had to keep food laws which had been given to their ancestors thousands of years before. That's not what happened though. Nowhere in the NT do the writers say, "come to Jesus for salvation and new life and then go and read Leviticus and make sure you keep it." Even the Jews don't obey all the laws they were given at Sinai - as far as I'm aware they don't sacrifice animals these days and they have no temple to keep all the festivals. If these were their laws and they don't keep them, why are some people trying to put Christians in bondage to them?

How can we have a holy conduct while at the same time disregarding God's holy instructions for how to do that?

Jesus is, and was, God. He came to die so that we could be reconciled to God in a way that the Israelites never could be by animal sacrifices. He sealed, with his blood, the New Covenant that was made. Everything has changed because God came to earth himself and laid down his life for us. Jesus told us that it is not food that makes a person unclean; not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of it. Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father so that he could send his Holy Spirit to live in us. The Spirit is transforming us into Jesus' image and likeness. The Holy Spirit in us helps us to live holy lives; set apart from the world, belonging to, committed to and following Jesus, changing our actions, words, thinking and mind-set so that we become like him.

John 7:16 "My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.

Jesus didn't teach anything different from what the Father had commanded and Gentiles were never exempted for having to obey the Father.

We call God 'Father' because Jesus told us that he is Father and we are his children. We are his children if we have received his Holy Spirit, who confirms this (Romans 8:9,16).
Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, God is my Father and I am his child and an heir, together with Christ. Jesus has not taught me that I am not his child if I eat pork.

More accurately, Gentiles don't have a commandment not to keep them.

We don't have a commandment TO keep them; that's the point.

It should be relatively straightforward that if you join a religion, then you follow its laws.

I haven't joined the Jewish religion and have no Jewish ancestors or relatives.
The Christian faith has its roots in Judaism; Jesus came as a Jew, the disciples were Jewish and we read the OT. But Christianity split from Judaism, became a sect and people like Paul persecuted the church. Why? Because they said that the Messiah had come - in Jesus.
The identity of Jesus is THE difference between Christians and Jews - and all other faiths in fact. WE say that he is the Messiah, our Lord and Saviour, the Son of God, actually God himself.
I was not brought up to obey Jewish food laws, I went to church and Sunday school where I learned about Jesus.

It should be relatively straightforward that if you're told not to sin and the Bible says eating unclean animals is a sin, then you are not to eat unclean animals.

It says it was a sin for the Israelites to eat unclean animals.
You may have been brought up on the OT, or started to read the Bible from the beginning, been told, that you have to obey the Jewish food laws and that anything else in sin; I wasn't. I went to Sunday school from an early age and learnt about Jesus - who he was, what he taught, how he died for me and what it means to come to him and be forgiven, made clean and adopted as a child of God. THEN I started to read the OT, about God's promises to Abraham about how the nation of Israel was formed and the exodus from Egypt, about how God called this nation to be his holy people, how he gave the covenant, which they continually broke so that eventually he said he was going to make a new one with them. Should I then say, "oh, the Lord Jesus sealed that covenant with his blood, but the only way I can belong to God is to go back to the OT covenant and start obeying that?"

It should be relatively straightforward that if we are followers of Christ, then we should follow his example of obedience. WWJD? He'd obey God's Torah and make disciples to teach them to do the same.

He obeyed the Jewish law, yes; he was a Jew.
He did not tell his disciples they would be saved by keeping the law, that they would sin if they did not obey the law and they had to teach all Gentiles to believe in him and THEN obey the law.

Paul says that if we keep one part of the law we have to keep all of it - that includes circumcision, not wearing mixed fabrics and all the hygiene laws, as well as sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins, not just not eating certain types of food.

 

[Strong in Him]

Growing up, I had always been told that this was about dietary laws, but upon closer inspection, that's just something that's been injected into the text that's not actually there. What they happened to be eating has no relevance whatsoever to what was happening and I see no good reason to assume that it was anything other than kosher.

That's the trouble though - when we assume things that are not actually stated/commanded. The reasoning then goes, "I assume the early church carried on eating Kosher food, therefore they must have kept obeying all the OT food laws, therefore it is not ok not to"; thus building an argument on supposition and silence.

 

[rockytopva]

Well... Unwashed hands is not as bad for the belly as all the sodium, saturated fat, bread conditioners, chemicals, and the like that people put in their system these days. In this day and time you had better wash up before eating! Especially after utilizing the public facilities!

 

[rockytopva]

These verses are used all the time to say Jesus canceled the dietary laws.

Mark 7:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”

and
Matthew 15:16-20
16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

-The whole issue in both these parallel chapters were the Pharisees were accusing them of eating with unwashed hands.

Matthew 15:2
2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

Mark 7:5
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

I have noticed on cruise ships that they offer hand sanitation stations all through the ship. I do not believe it is a sin to eat stuff like bacon with unwashed hands. It is just better for you if you go for the oatmeal with washed hands!

 

[Soyeong]

That's the trouble though - when we assume things that are not actually stated/commanded. The reasoning then goes, "I assume the early church carried on eating Kosher food, therefore they must have kept obeying all the OT food laws, therefore it is not ok not to"; thus building an argument on supposition and silence.

Ummm...please quote where I've used such reasoning. God has commanded that it is a sin to eat unclean animals and neither Jews nor Gentiles have a licence to sin. It would be nonsensical for someone to join Islam and then be unconcerned with following their code of conduct, likewise it is nonsensical for Gentiles to join a new religion while being unconcerned with obeying God's commands and refraining from sin. At the very least, they would have been interested in having community fellowship with Jews and wouldn't have openly insulted them by bringing non-kosher food. God's dietary laws were never repealed, so I think it is reasonable to think that they were probably obeying God by eating kosher, but as I said before what they happened to be eating is not mentioned and has no relevance to the passage, so I'd be just as happy not trying to deduce that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Ummm...please quote where I've used such reasoning. God has commanded that it is a sin to eat unclean animals and neither Jews nor Gentiles have a licence to sin. .

You said,

What they happened to be eating has no relevance whatsoever to what was happening and I see no good reason to assume that it was anything other than kosher.

All I was pointing out that, for me, it is not wise to assume things in Scripture that aren't stated.
I don't actually know if the early church carried on eating Kosher foods for 2 months, 2 years, until Peter had his vision in Acts 10, or for many years afterwards. Or they may have given up soon after Mark 7 when Jesus was talking about unclean food. Scripture doesn't say, so we don't know.

If you think it is a sin to eat pork, then don't do it. I don't, for all the reasons that I gave in post #42.

 

[joshua 1 9]

He has fulfilled the Jewish law for the Jews.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

But plenty do not follow this law and still do not get sick.

Science tells us that diabetes, heart disease and cancer can be avoided with proper diet, exercise and stress control. The best way to control stress is with healthy relationships. Illness has an "I" Wellness has a "We".

 

[joshua 1 9]

God's dietary laws were never repealed,

Just the opposite, Science is a lot more strict then the Bible.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I quit eating that crap a long time ago, now I know why. That's crazy. The crazy thing is why would anyone put this junk in their mouths.

The reason is that cardiovascular disease is called the silent killer. There is said to be NO symptoms right up to the day you have your heart attack.

 

[Strong in Him]

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Where did he say, "I command Gentiles to abstain from pork and shellfish"?

Science tells us that diabetes, heart disease and cancer can be avoided with proper diet, exercise and stress control. The best way to control stress is with healthy relationships.

I'm sure it does.
Pork, ham and bacon sarnies may not be a healthy diet if eaten daily and with no other nutrients, but no one's suggesting that. Eating pork doesn't affect my relationships with my friends, it might strengthen them; sausage and chip suppers, breakfast clubs/prayer meetings, church lunches with ham, pork pies etc.
Eating pork also doesn't affect, or spoil, my relationship with God. So I don't quite know what you mean by that.

Illness has an "I" Wellness has a "We".

?? Are you saying that if I don't eat pork I will have better, or improved, relationships and my friends and healthy social life will guarantee that I never get ill? How do you work that one out?

 

[Xalith]

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

And what did He Himself tell us to do again?

1). Love God more than anything/anybody.
2). Love everybody else as we love ourselves.
3). Repent.
4). Believe in Him.
5). Stay away from sin. (He even specifically listed specific sins)
6). Be always ready for His coming.

What didn't he say to do?

1). He said nothing about dietary law.
2). He said nothing about clothing law.

He said "If you love the Father, you will love Me, for He sent Me." (pp) and He also said, "If you love Me, you will do the things I command you to do."

So... it's pretty simple, you look through the Gospel and see what He said to do (I already outlined this above).

Also, Romans 8:2 says that we are freed from the Law of Sin and Death, because we have a new Law (the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ).

It doesn't make sense that He'd have us go back to the old law which failed (Romans 8:3) because we are weak in the flesh (God knew the law would fail when He gave it at Mt. Sinai. How many times, again, did they break His covenant?).

Also, Acts 13:39 tells us that the Law of Moses does not justify us, but rather believing in the Gospel (which is the forgiveness of all sins).

And finally.....

James 2:10.

If you transgress on one point of the law, you are guilty of the entire law. This is why we need a saviour. So, let me ask you...

When's the last time you've sacrificed a ram without blemish of the first year? Have you ever worn clothing of diverse cloths? Do you uphold all of the feast days, and eat unleavened bread?

No?

Then you've already transgressed the law -- all of it.

But yet... we're still saved. Why? Because God sent Christ with a new covenant, new laws (as I outlined at the start of this post).

If you do the things Christ has told us to do, He will handle the rest. We are all doomed to fall short no matter what we do.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Treating your body like a holy temple requires not eating junk. Pigs are pretty dirty animals- they roll around in their feces and don't have a lot of bodily processes to get rid of whatever toxins they digest. Before mankind got really good with making them safe to eat in more humane ways, they were boiled alive to ensure the blood cooked through the meat. This is not a kosher way of killing animals in Judaism.
Same goes for shellfish, and most birds are dirty and carry whatever they come from to where ever they go.

For most of the dietary law and restrictions, the reasoning is pretty straightforward. But some of it, which is usually not realized, is part of discipline and reverence. Some animals, just by mere symbolism, wouldn't be eaten. Or not drinking milk after eating meat- these were traditions.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Where did he say, "I command Gentiles to abstain from pork and shellfish"?



I'm sure it does.
Pork, ham and bacon sarnies may not be a healthy diet if eaten daily and with no other nutrients, but no one's suggesting that. Eating pork doesn't affect my relationships with my friends, it might strengthen them; sausage and chip suppers, breakfast clubs/prayer meetings, church lunches with ham, pork pies etc.
Eating pork also doesn't affect, or spoil, my relationship with God. So I don't quite know what you mean by that.



?? Are you saying that if I don't eat pork I will have better, or improved, relationships and my friends and healthy social life will guarantee that I never get ill? How do you work that one out?

The problem with Pork and Shellfish are the toxins. The stomach on the pig is very simple and none of the toxins are removed, rather they are stored with the fat. If we eat a pig and we do not convert the fat to energy then the toxins get stored as a part of the fat on us. So when we do go on a diet then we have to cleanse ourselves of those toxins as we burn off the fat. I know people that get sick when they diet and it makes it all the more difficult for them to lose weight when they have to be cleansed of all the toxins that is stored in with the fat.

Shell fish get their nutrients by filtering it out of the water. They do not do anything with the toxix only when we eat the shell fish then we can get the toxins in us. That is the reason why shell fish is the number one cause of food poisoning and the leading cause of food related emergency room visits.

In addition to the toxins Pigs are high in fat and that is the number one health hazard today and the leading cause of death in American.

Obesogens are known as “endocrine disruptors” because they interfere with the chemical messaging of hormones to cells by turning on, shutting off or modifying signals. The endocrine system consists of glands that produce hormones that regulate metabolism, growth and development, and more. Some obesogens affect the number or size of fat cells, while others impact hormones associated with metabolism. Fetal and early life exposure to obesogens may alter fat-cell makeup and metabolism. Adults are at risk, too.

The World Health Organization has identified about 800 chemicals that are known or suspected to be endocrine disruptors, yet only a few have been investigated. The NIEHS has called endocrine disruption “an important public health concern.”

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...1/obesogens-the-environmental-link-to-obesity

 

[Strong in Him]

The problem with Pork and Shellfish are the toxins. The stomach on the pig is very simple and none of the toxins are removed, rather they are stored with the fat. If we eat a pig and we do not convert the fat to energy then the toxins get stored as a part of the fat on us. So when we do go on a diet then we have to cleanse ourselves of those toxins as we burn off the fat. I know people that get sick when they diet and it makes it all the more difficult for them to lose weight when they have to be cleansed of all the toxins that is stored in with the fat.

Maybe. But the question was, "where does Scripture say, 'I (Jesus) command Gentiles not to eat pork'"?

Not to mention all the points I raised in post #42, which are true and still stand.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Maybe. But the question was, "where does Scripture say, 'I (Jesus) command Gentiles not to eat pork'"?

Not to mention all the points I raised in post #42, which are true and still stand.

And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

It is science that says to avoid pigs for two reasons. The toxins and the fat. It is a 50 year problem and they call it the silent killer. Slowly gradually over the years the fat deposits build up in your coronary artery system.

The Bible says many are called but few are choose. Meaning not everyone accepts that call. They are still saved but they are not sanctified and holy to be set apart to be used by God. They do not accept their Priesthood before God. Even the Priesthood that Peter talks about. If you want to serve God and be used by God then you need to follow the Law given to Moses for the Priesthood.

We are training people for the Priesthood. God is calling a rapture generation. He calls a church without spot blemish or wrinkle. If people believe in this then show that they live Holy, Sanctified lives before God.

 

[Xalith]

If you want to serve God and be used by God then you need to follow the Law given to Moses for the Priesthood.

Except that following the Law is impossible.

James 2:10 says that we either follow all of the law, or none of it, and since there are no known Levites around, and there's no tabernacle with a Holy of Holies (and the fact that Jesus ripped the veil in the Temple when He died on the Cross should say something about the Law), this means that the law is defunct -- we can't possibly follow the Law given to Moses.

We can follow some of it, but again, James 2:10 says that you either follow all of the law, or be guilty of breaking the entire law. You can't cherry-pick Points A, C, and D and just go "oh, we can't do B, so it's ok". That's not how the Law works.

Jesus gave us new commandments during His ministry, which I outlined in a post above (which was not replied to). None of them mention clothing or dietary law, nor animal sacrifices. He said that if we love the Father, we love Jesus. If we love Jesus, then we will do the things Jesus said to do (because He's our new mediator between man and God, instead of a chosen Levite/Son of Aaron).

The destruction of the Temple in AD70 makes the law impossible to fulfill nowadays, which is probably why Christ Himself said that HE fulfilled the law for us.

As for the stuff about pork, it all comes down to moderation. Yeah, 50 years of binging on pork is going to make you die a rather young death. Of course. Gluttony of any kind is still a sin. Pork can be eaten in moderation along with most other foods, and if prepared properly, it won't do any more damage to you than 99% of everything else we eat these days that has been processed in a factory. In fact, things like Aspartame I'd have to say are even worse than pork, and people would put that stuff in everything thinking it was "better" than sugar. But yet the Bible obviously doesn't say that we shouldn't eat Aspartame, right?

Again, moderation. Sadly, Gluttony is one of our worst sins, the sin that most people don't pay much attention to. I think God might be a little more concerned about the person who eats 50lbs of chocolate (which oddly is not mentioned in the Bible either!) a week, than the person who eats a pork steak or two once a week, especially if you cut the fat off the side of the steak like our family does. A strip or two of bacon on a cheeseburger occasionally is not going to make you die at 50 years old.

 

[Xalith]

Also, an inspiration came to me this morning in the shower (lol, literally in the shower), that He instituted the Law for these purposes:

1). To set His people apart from all other people.
2). To give them a moral code so that they would stop doing the things He hates.
3). To remind them of who He is, and why they should worship Him and do His commandments.

#1 was done by the various laws about Clothing, beard trimming, no tattoos, etc. When most people in the world threw on whatever clothes they wanted, women were scantily dressed, people had tattoos all over them, etc, you would know a Jew when you looked at one, instantly because of what they wore and how they kept themselves. However, in Today's world, we have something new that sets us apart -- the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather than appearance, in a loveless world where there's so much hate and anger... you will know a Christian by his/her fruits; he or she will spread love instead of hate and strife. As far as clothing goes, I think the only part of this that stands today, is "Don't put a stumbling-block infront of anybody else" (IE: Women shouldn't wear clothing that causes men to sin).

#2 was accomplished by the Ten Commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath law), and other similar laws having to do with what was sin, and what wasn't. Christ re-affirmed these in His ministry and they are again re-affirmed in the other books of the New Testament, and gave us two commandments that encompassed the part of the law He wanted us to continue doing: the two commandments about Love covers most of the Moral Code (and He had to clarify that Divorce was never intended).

#3 was accomplished by all of the feastdays and similar customs He commanded them to do. They are not needed today, because every Christian who is saved has an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and one who has an indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not likely going to forget God, or his Lord and Saviour.

 

[joshua 1 9]

there's no tabernacle with a Holy of Holies (and the fact that Jesus ripped the veil in the Temple when He died on the Cross should say something about the Law), this means that the law is defunct -- we can't possibly follow the Law given to Moses.

Of course there is no temple. So there are no animal sacrifices. I am talking about the commandments that Moses gave for the priesthood. How to live holy and sanctified before God. It is up to each individual IF they want to be used by God. If they do not want to serve God and be used by God then they do not have to live Holy before God.

 

[joshua 1 9]

it won't do any more damage to you than 99% of everything else we eat these days that has been processed in a factory.

I pretty much cook all my own food. If for not other reason then that I follow a low salt diet and it is pretty much impossible to eat processed foods on a low salt diet. It is not appealing to me to eat food is being manufactured on a assembly line conveyor belt. I pay extra at times to get food that is more organic. I ate cheap frozen dinners at one time but it was difficult to keep from gaining weight on that food. They put hormones in the animals to get them to gain weight so they can make more money.