Old Earth Creationism and the Integrity of Scripture

[LachMck]

Been thinking about this for a while. Just loking around for what other people think, I might learn something.
Well, I believe in old earth creationism, and that we evolved. Scripture has the whole 7 days, ect ect. I believe that this is in a way metaphorical, and is designed to simply explain how we came about. After all, bronze age man wouldn't understand millions of years, evolution of species, ect. Furthermore, the bible is a book teaching us who God is, what he's done, and what he wants us to do (in a nutshell). It's not a scientific book.

However, many of my young earth friends talk about how if we did evolve, that would mean that genesis is a lie, or at least not the whole truth, and therefore compromising the integrity of scripture, which would mean that the bible is not 100% true and God-given, as God is a perfect and just God.

Just want to know what everyone else thinks on the matter.
Cheers
Lachie

 

[ComradeAgopian]

I do see a conflict between a ' literaist ' view of scripture , and science . Personally , I think faith and reason can exist , and HAVE existed for many hundreds of years . Literature , art , science , philosophy , all these were at one time dominated by people of faith .

 

[GeoCreature]

Hi Lachie,

I'm new to the forum, but not to the subject! Personally, for me, I found a deeper understanding of the science led to a pretty literal interpretation of the scripture... but consistent with an old earth.

For example, in Genesis 2:4-6...

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

.
If you compare this to the earth 4.5 billion years ago, it's pretty accurate. The earth was just a mass of cooling lava. There had never been shrubs or plants. There had never been rain. The streams of water would be what scientists call outgassing. That's when evolution began, and it led up to Adam. So, it may have taken Him billions of years, but God created him from the dust of the ground.

7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

[Schroeder]

there is no sense of TIME for God or anyone in heaven or hell. there is only time in our minds or in our physical realm. So it didnt take God any time to create anything. thats why he created things when he spoke them into being. hebrews 11:3. what is seen was not made out of what is visible. This is why scripture NEVER suggest the theory of evolution.

 

[GeoCreature]

there is no sense of TIME for God or anyone in heaven or hell. there is only time in our minds or in our physical realm. So it didnt take God any time to create anything. thats why he created things when he spoke them into being.

You are correct about God's heavenly time frame, but scripture was recorded from the perspective of the Holy Spirit hovering over the deep.

hebrews 11:3. what is seen was not made out of what is visible. This is why scripture NEVER suggest the theory of evolution.

Here is the verse you cite:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

The Big Bang is the appearance of all matter out of nothing, so by faith I believe that the universe was formed at God's command, and I believe that all matter that we see was made out of nothing.

 

[Dieselman]

Adaptation is a process where beneficial genetic information is retained and deleterious information is discarded. It also allows for changes in physical characteristics; such as increasing or decreasing beak size; but has no process by why new genetic information can appear and encode itself into the reproductive system. Adaptation is repeated subtraction. Repeated subtraction never leads to addition. Micro-evolution is actually the antithesis of macro-evolution.

As for the creation, the evening and the morning made the days. Since the narrative is from the perspective of the earth, these could only be single rotations of the earth. If the days were 5 million years long, then so were the nights. Since nothing could survive a five million year night, and since the planet is slowing down, logic would hold that the days were actually shorter than 24 hours, not longer. By the way. There were trees bearing fruit and grasses on the earth one day before the sun, moon and stars were created. That kind of messes up the evolutionist's time frame, don't you think?

 

[singpeace]

Furthermore, the bible is a book teaching us who God is, what he's done, and what he wants us to do (in a nutshell). It's not a scientific book.

I too believe in Old Earth Creationism. I also believe in a type of evolution which makes survival possible ie longer - shorter beaks; thicker - thinner fur; faster - slower metabolism; white fur in winter; brown fur in forests; etc

However, I just want to touch on the subject of whether or not the Bible is a scientific book. I agree with you that the Bible

teaches us Who God is, what He's done, [what He wants for us], what He wants us to do (in a nutshell).

I find the Bible is ALSO perfectly SCIENTIFIC. Here are a few examples of the incredible accuracy of scientific statements made in the Bible:
(apologies for the length of this post)

copied from:
Scientific Facts in The Bible


1. The Shape of the Earth

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in," (Isaiah 40:22, NIV).

This may or may not be construed to support the spherical shape of the earth. The horizon is a circle and a circle is flat.

Christopher Columbus wrote in his diary:
“It was the Lord who put it into my mind – I could feel his hand upon me – the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … All who heard of my project rejected it with laughter, ridiculing me … There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures… For the execution of the journey to the Indies, I did not make use of intelligence, mathematics, or maps. It is simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied.”


Also take a moment to really consider the next verse:

"He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness." (Job 26:10)

Job 26:10 clearly refers to the line of demarcation between day and night. No other interpretation is possible. Such a view of the curved horizon at sunrise or sunset can only be seen from extremely high altitudes reached only by military jets and spacecraft.


2. The Earth is Suspended in Nothing

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7, NIV).

This is particularly interesting, considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.


3. Earth’s Rotation on its Axis is Responsible for the Sun’s Rising and Setting.

“Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place? It is changed (turned) like clay under the seal” (Job 38:12, 14).

Written 4,000 years ago, the picture here is of a vessel of clay being turned or rotated upon the potter’s wheel – an accurate analogy of the earth’s rotation.


4. The Water Cycle

"For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof: Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly. Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?"(Job 36:27-29).

Science later documented the direction of wind currents and wind paths. This was unknown in previous centuries, but Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 1:6, “The wind blows to the south and goes round to the north; round and round goes the wind, and on its circuits with wind returns.”


5. Streams in the Ocean

Ecclesiastes 1:7: “All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they flow again.”

Matthew Maury (1806-1873), who is known as “the Pathfinder of the Seas,” was the founder of modern oceanography and hydrography. Maury firmly believed in and was inspired by Psalm 8:8, “whatever passes along the paths of the sea.” Maury believed that if the Bible wrote about “paths in the seas” then there must truly be paths in the sea. He dedicated his life to find and document these paths God had mentioned. Maury spent part of his career with the U.S. Navy charting the winds and currents of the Atlantic which were not known before his documentation.


6. Space and Time

"In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the Earth (matter)... And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:1,3 … written some 3450 years ago).



7. Universe Expanding

"It is He that . . . stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)


8. Empty Space

"He stretches out the north over empty space; he hangs the earth on nothing." (Job 26:7)


9. Air has Weight

"To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure." (Job 28:25)


10. Galaxy Radio Waves

"When the morning stars sang together..." (Job 38:7)


11. Atoms

"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. "(Hebrews 11:3)

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17).


12. Gravitational Properties

“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” (Job 38:31).



13. First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics:

a. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by 1) its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating, and 2) a Creator who is"upholding all things by the word of his power (Hebrews 1:3)".

Genesis 2:1 says (after creation):

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

The Hebrew word used here is the past definite tense for the verb "finished," indicating an action completed in the past, never again to occur. The creation was "finished" -- once and for all. That is what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. It states that neither matter nor energy can be either created or destroyed. There is no "creation" ongoing today. It is "finished" exactly as the Bible states.

b. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law:

"For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, the earth will grow old like a garment..." (Isaiah 51:6),

and also a New Testament rendering:

"You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; (Hebrews 1:10-11)
__________________
SingPeace

Malachi 3:10 - . . . Test Me, and see if I won't return to you a blessing too vast for you to receive.

 

[elopez]

However, many of my young earth friends talk about how if we did evolve, that would mean that genesis is a lie, or at least not the whole truth, and therefore compromising the integrity of scripture, which would mean that the bible is not 100% true and God-given, as God is a perfect and just God.

A literal six day creation account in Genesis is not logically consistent, and since we ought to therefore view it as metaphorical, that wouldn't make it a lie. For example, just because we think of the creation account as not literal, does not mean we disbelieve that God created the earth or universe. A symbolic interpretation wold thus not invalidate the 'creation' of man, rather only that it happened instantaneously in a matter of seconds. That doesn't make Genesis a lie, but only the view that claims man was created in a matter of seconds.

There is truth in symbolism. A poem can describe a real, historic event.

 

[GeoCreature]

As for the creation, the evening and the morning made the days. Since the narrative is from the perspective of the earth, these could only be single rotations of the earth. If the days were 5 million years long, then so were the nights. Since nothing could survive a five million year night, and since the planet is slowing down, logic would hold that the days were actually shorter than 24 hours, not longer. By the way. There were trees bearing fruit and grasses on the earth one day before the sun, moon and stars were created. That kind of messes up the evolutionist's time frame, don't you think?

Not at all. If I may add one detail on to your description of the narrative: it is from the perspective of the Holy Spirit hovering over the planet. He could hover within the sunshine for as long as He wants, even 5 million years, with the earth rotating beneath, until He finally decides to follow the earth into sunset.

As for the trees and grass before the sun, moon, and stars: The sun, moon, and stars did in fact exist already. They just weren't visible from the surface of the earth until the carbon dioxide was cleaned up from the atmostphere by the trees and grass. The sequence in Genesis actually works out quite nicely in this case.

 

[GeoCreature]

Singpeace,

I agree with your examples of scientific verses, but must caution you not to take it too far so as to say that the Bible is therefore a scientific document. Genesis 1's description of the water canopy is anything but scientific. It is in fact a repeat by Moses of Egypt's creation myth, which traces back to Sumer's creation myth. This does not undo your examples of scientific verses obviously, but given the unscientific examples that exist as well, one must be careful not to draw too broad a conclusion.

 

[GeoCreature]

A literal six day creation account in Genesis is not logically consistent, and since we ought to therefore view it as metaphorical, that wouldn't make it a lie.

I sympathize with your view, but I in fact found that if you view things from the Holy Spirit's perspective of hovering over the ocean, then the 6 day creation is quite consistent for an Old Earth. Basically, the Holy Spirit hovered over the earth for the duration of an age, as the planet revolved beneath Him. He was free to follow the earth into sunset at any time.

There are other problems such as the order in which things appeared. However, viewed from the perspective of when God began the evolution of a given life form, it happened in the order scripture says. Plants began evolving before the sun was visible. Day 5's creatures were allowed to evolve with the KT impact (65 MYA), and Day 6's creatures were allowed to evolve with the Grand Coupure (33 MYA). The key is God's decision to "let the earth" produce the life forms. Scientists call it evolution, but it was commanded by God, and from His perspective it occurred in six literal days.

Besides being consistent with the chosen words of Genesis 1 (though not most interpretations!), it gets around the criticisms that result from calling it Genesis 1 metaphorical, while providing a basis for seeing the earth is old, scripture is of God, and science is true.

But I don't say this to argue, just to lend another perspective for why your observations of science are true, and your serious attitude toward scripture is justified.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Also god has said let 1,000 generations keep my command and go on to state 40 years he as been angry. 40 x 1,000 is 40,000