Objective reality

[dms1972]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including trying to think it through "philosophically" as it were, like how can I be in touch with reality. I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality. I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have? One of my biggest difficulties has been to turn my will over to God. I have been to counsellors who required this for progress in the counselling. But I felt I would just be saying the words not meaning them, that they wouldn't be coming from deep down so to speak, and that i didn't really believe anymore. I have wondered too if I might be autistic. Some of these counsellors were WOF christians, at least one gave me cassettes to listen to from a WOF pastor (Andew Womack) and a book by Ulf Ekman.

My problem is philosophically related I think in that I began to embrace postmodern ideas along the way. It was really like I no longer believed John 1:1, and I had no grip on anything, so was like I had neither Christian faith nor Enlightenment / modern worldview.

How does one get back from that?

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The main remedy to occultism disguising itself as Christianity, is to apply the trinity on a mystical level as a replacement.

It's not an easy thing, but that's what comes to mind.

 

[dms1972]

The main remedy to occultism disguising itself as Christianity, is to apply the trinity on a mystical level as a replacement.

It's not an easy thing, but that's what comes to mind.

Could you explain more about what you mean, so that I can understand.

 

[public hermit]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including philosophical questions like how can I be in touch with reality. I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality. I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have? One of my biggest difficulties has been to turn my will over to God. I have been to counsellors who required this for progress in the counselling. But I felt I would just be saying the words not meaning them, that they wouldn't be coming from deep down so to speak, and that i didn't really believe anymore. I have wondered too if I might be autistic. Some of these counsellors were WOF christians, at least one gave me cassettes to listen to from a WOF pastor (Andew Womack) and a book by Ulf Ekman.

My problem is philosophically related I think in that I began to embrace postmodern ideas along the way. It was really like I no longer believed John 1:1, and I had no grip on anything, so was like I had neither Christian faith nor Enlightenment / modern worldview.

How does one get back from that?

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

My suggestion: take up a practice of contemplative prayer and use the Jesus prayer during the day. One of the benefits is the realization that you are not your thoughts. The practice of letting thoughts go and having an affective focus (focus of the desire of your heart) will help you live in the moment and see the "world" in a new light. In short, get out of your head.

The temptation can be the illusiory assumption that we can figure it all out through reasoning. Much is possible that way, but there are limits. What I hear you saying is you have reached those limits. The intellect is not simply reasoning, but a God-given faculty for perceiving truth. Our conceptual frameworks and obsessive thinking can get in the way of that. Give yourself a break by spending time in stillness and silence, with your focus on your inherent desire for good, and let the Spirit do work that is too deep for words.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including trying to think it through "philosophically" as it were, like how can I be in touch with reality. I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality. I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have? One of my biggest difficulties has been to turn my will over to God. I have been to counsellors who required this for progress in the counselling. But I felt I would just be saying the words not meaning them, that they wouldn't be coming from deep down so to speak, and that i didn't really believe anymore. I have wondered too if I might be autistic. Some of these counsellors were WOF christians, at least one gave me cassettes to listen to from a WOF pastor (Andew Womack) and a book by Ulf Ekman.

My problem is philosophically related I think in that I began to embrace postmodern ideas along the way. It was really like I no longer believed John 1:1, and I had no grip on anything, so was like I had neither Christian faith nor Enlightenment / modern worldview.

How does one get back from that?

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

**sigh** DMS, I think we've attempted to chat about aspects of this epistemic conundrum in the past. And y'know, I fully empathize with you in all of this. But the problem at the core of it is, I think, that on one level, there is an epistemic frame, within a frame, within a frame we are stuck within, and like Alice in Wonderland, we can't really escape this situation. What's worse is we often can't discern this fact about our perceptions about reality. The other level of the problem is that, running below and wit;hin these frames, there is a trick to "getting beyond" it all, one that, existentially isn't easy to implement or contend with psychologically...

 

[Jermayn]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including trying to think it through "philosophically" as it were, like how can I be in touch with reality. I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality. I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have? One of my biggest difficulties has been to turn my will over to God. I have been to counsellors who required this for progress in the counselling. But I felt I would just be saying the words not meaning them, that they wouldn't be coming from deep down so to speak, and that i didn't really believe anymore. I have wondered too if I might be autistic. Some of these counsellors were WOF christians, at least one gave me cassettes to listen to from a WOF pastor (Andew Womack) and a book by Ulf Ekman.

My problem is philosophically related I think in that I began to embrace postmodern ideas along the way. It was really like I no longer believed John 1:1, and I had no grip on anything, so was like I had neither Christian faith nor Enlightenment / modern worldview.

How does one get back from that?

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

In regard to your faith, stay away from anything WOF at all cost and don't believe anyone who tells you your saved because you said a prayer at some point in your past. Living faith produces good fruit. Has a change taken place in your life after conversion, or is your life indistinguishable from what is was before? Do you feel sorrow and conviction when over your sin, or do you continue to enjoy it?

As far as your mental health and grasp on reality, I would say talk to a psychiatrist, preferably one with a Christian worldview. I have a close friend who has had episodes with depersonalization/derealization, and medication made a positive difference. They would be able to spot autism as well.

 

[dms1972]

Please pray for me.

I don't want to get into a lot of philosophical debate. All I can say is I am finding it very difficult to ascertain what i really believe. and feel engaged in a unhealthy degree of introspection, trying to figure out what did I believe back in the past. I think I am trying to figure out if I hold another believe system, sort of more unconsciously. As it is I have tended to approach the matter of christianity, and becoming a christian rather theologically at times, ie. get an understanding and then try to act on it. So I the whole question of who God is, and at times apologetic questions like Does God exist? have occuppied me a lot.


Re Word of Faith, I did get into this at one point in life, and I think it was probably a book by EW Kenyon at the time, but I didn't know he was a word of faith teacher.

 

[Jermayn]

Please pray for me.

I don't want to get into a lot of philosophical debate. All I can say is I am finding it very difficult to ascertain what i really believe. and feel engaged in a unhealthy degree of introspection, trying to figure out what did I believe back in the past. I think I am trying to figure out if I hold another believe system, sort of more unconsciously. As it is I have tended to approach the matter of christianity, and becoming a christian rather theologically at times, ie. get an understanding and then try to act on it. So I the whole question of who God is, and at times apologetic questions like Does God exist? have occuppied me a lot.


Re Word of Faith, I did get into this at one point in life, and I think it was probably a book by EW Kenyon at the time, but I didn't know he was a word of faith teacher.

Will do. Romans 10:17 states, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", so be sure to get in it and listen/read on a daily basis.

 

[zippy2006]

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

I would recommend the beginning of Joseph Ratzinger's Introduction to Christianity, where he speaks about belief in the modern word and the meaning of "Amen." The Christian disposition entails a sort of existential trust, a giving oneself over to the ground of being and taking one's stand in a sort of faith. For example:

In contrasting the two pairs of concepts stand-understand and know-make, I​

am alluding to a basic biblical statement about belief that is ultimately​

untranslatable. Luther tried to capture the profundity of this statement’s play​

on words when he coined the formula, “If you do not believe, then you do​

not abide.” A more literal translation would be, “If you do not believe [if​

you do not hold firm to Yahweh], then you will have no foothold” (Is 7:9).​

The one root word ‘mn (amen) embraces a variety of meanings whose​

interplay and differentiation go to make up the subtle grandeur of this​

sentence. It includes the meanings truth, firmness, firm ground, ground, and​

furthermore the meanings loyalty, to trust, entrust oneself, take one’s stand​

on something, believe in something; thus faith in God appears as a holding​

on to God through which man gains a firm foothold for his life. Faith is​

thereby defined as taking up a position, as taking a stand trustfully on the​

ground of the word of God. [...]​

​

For the time being we can simply take up the thread of our earlier reflections​

and say that belief operates on a completely different plane from that of​

making and “makability”. Essentially, it is entrusting oneself to that which​

has not been made by oneself and never could be made and which precisely​

in this way supports and makes possible all our making. But this also means​

that on the plane of practical knowledge, on the plane of verum quia factum​

seu faciendum, it neither occurs nor ever could occur and be discovered and​

that any attempt to “lay it on the table”, to demonstrate it as one would a​

piece of practical knowledge, is doomed to failure. It is not to be met in the​

context of this kind of knowledge, and anyone who nevertheless “lays it on​

the table” has laid something false on the table. The penetrating “perhaps”​

that belief whispers in man’s ear in every place and in every age does not​

point to any uncertainty within the realm of practical knowledge; it simply​

queries the absoluteness of this realm and relativizes it, reminding man that​

it is only one plane of human existence and of existence in general, a plane​

that can only have the character of something less than final. In other​

words, we have now reached a point in our reflections where it becomes​

evident that there are two basic forms of human attitude or reaction to​

reality, neither of which can be traced back to the other because they​

operate on completely different planes.​

(Ratzinger, Introduction to Christianity)​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Please pray for me.

I don't want to get into a lot of philosophical debate. All I can say is I am finding it very difficult to ascertain what i really believe. and feel engaged in a unhealthy degree of introspection, trying to figure out what did I believe back in the past. I think I am trying to figure out if I hold another believe system, sort of more unconsciously. As it is I have tended to approach the matter of christianity, and becoming a christian rather theologically at times, ie. get an understanding and then try to act on it. So I the whole question of who God is, and at times apologetic questions like Does God exist? have occuppied me a lot.


Re Word of Faith, I did get into this at one point in life, and I think it was probably a book by EW Kenyon at the time, but I didn't know he was a word of faith teacher.

Yep. Kenyon was one of those problematic figures, and we'd probably be wiser to ignore him. But even so, there isn't some one singular person who has supra-epistemic insight and who has delivered unto to humanity the 'final' theological interpretation and/or historical evidences for all time, although I'm sure the New Testament writers have given us the historicized essentials by which we can all come to believe [with the aid of the Holy Spirit and in and around Christ's Church].

So, I'm going to posit that having belief, and thereby faith, in Christ isn't a merely theological endeavor, and it never has been. And again, you and I have talked about this before.

Just hang in there, DMS. ........ I know that knowing about our knowledge of the truth of Christ is difficult, but it's not impossible.

 

[dms1972]

I think I may have read some of Ratzinger's Introduction to Christianity a good many years ago.

I think the problem is no matter what I read on Christianity, I seem to already have contrary belief system, some sort of gnostic system of cosmology perhaps, because I was interested in this when quite young.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think I may have read some of Ratzinger's Introduction to Christianity a good many years ago.

I think the problem is no matter what I read on Christianity, I seem to already have contrary belief system, some sort of gnostic system of cosmology perhaps, because I was interested in this when quite young.

Do you want to take a moment and explain what you think are the gnostic influences affecting your cosmological understanding?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including trying to think it through "philosophically" as it were, like how can I be in touch with reality. I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality. I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have? One of my biggest difficulties has been to turn my will over to God. I have been to counsellors who required this for progress in the counselling. But I felt I would just be saying the words not meaning them, that they wouldn't be coming from deep down so to speak, and that i didn't really believe anymore. I have wondered too if I might be autistic. Some of these counsellors were WOF christians, at least one gave me cassettes to listen to from a WOF pastor (Andew Womack) and a book by Ulf Ekman.

My problem is philosophically related I think in that I began to embrace postmodern ideas along the way. It was really like I no longer believed John 1:1, and I had no grip on anything, so was like I had neither Christian faith nor Enlightenment / modern worldview.

How does one get back from that?

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

I can appreciate your struggle. years ago i read James Fowler's Stage of faith. It was very helpful in appreciating how we all may be at different stages and that we all can shift through different stages and yet still be in all of them. But faith is a dynamic thing. not just a set of stable beliefs. We always (some of us more than other) probe, ponder and question what it all means.

Lately I have bee taking shelter in
1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Of course John was trying to figure it all out also, make sense of what was heard, seen, touched and revealed. we do that every day, try to makes sense of our experience.

But I am inspired in knowing and believing that I share in that fellowship. I, we do not struggle alone.

 

[dms1972]

Do you want to take a moment and explain what you think are the gnostic influences affecting your cosmological understanding?

I am not sure I just think at a fairly young age I didn't take the path of christian faith, and went down a path of gnosis. It would be stuff like Valentianism, and other myths. I couldn't extricate myself from it, when I thought I had had just gone from one sort of gnostic belief to a different one. Later I got into the ideas of Bultmann, Kierkegarrd, Karl Barth, Jung, Nietzsche, Sausaurre, some New Age writers, and some of the postmodernist philosophers.

I think I shifted in my notion of language from Language being the mirror of reality, to language constructing reality.

 

[oikonomia]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the mental health forums.

I have struggled a lot with questions about reality for several decades, including trying to think it through "philosophically" as it were, like how can I be in touch with reality.

The Lord Jesus is a living Person who is available. Even Christians of a many years have the same problem as you describe.
The ultimate truth is an available loving Person the Lord whom we can tell that we love Him.

And if you feel that you do not love Jesus Christ, tell Him that He loves YOU. Then soon you will be returning that love.
Are you reading the New Testament daily?

We need to long for the guiless milk of the word like newborn babes. Then we can grow spiritually.

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation,
If you have tasted that the Lord is good. (1 Pet. 2:2,3)

I had a very bad time some years ago when I concluded there was no reality.

You'll go nuts trying to objectively evaluate what thinking is.

I encouratge you to save years of this and get to know the Lord Jesus as the risen available Person you
can enjoy, taste, and love.

The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

The "life giving Spirit" is unusual but real. He gives Jesus to you. Yes, He gives God into your innermost spiritual being.
Do not go crazy trying to get outside the unuverse to objectively know it as only God the Creator can.

But taste and see that the living Person of the Lord Jesus is good, comforting, and yes will prove to be enlightening as well.
That is Christ making His home more and more in your being will bring the real living Wisdom.

Pick up that Gospel of John and read some each morning - just a chapter or two aloud.
Taste and see that the livig God is comforting. And will be mighty enlightening too.

Tell the Lord Jesus "Lord Jesus, Thank you for your cleansing blood removing ALL of my sins. Lord I love You."
How can one read about Jesus in the Gospels and not fall in love with Him?

And if you feel "But I don't love this Jesus." Read then of His love for YOU. And bring yourself to confess
that you don't love HIm but He loves YOU.

We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Talk to God. Open your heart with honesty and TELL God your problems.
Accompany such git level talking to God with some thanksgiving and some amount of praise.

Enter His gates with thanksgiving, / His courts with praise; / Give thanks to Him; bless His name. (Psalm 100:4)

Pour out your heart to the Lord Jesus. But bring some praise and thanksgiving. This is very effective.
He never turns away an honest prayer. But enter into fellowship with God with some praise and thanksgiving.

And how do you know about God unless you read about Him in your Bible?

 

[oikonomia]

I am not sure if these difficulties are psychological or philosophical, maybe the philosophical questions are rooted in psychological / spiritual issues I have?

When you cannot verbalize your problems you can just call upon Name of the Lord Jesus.
The Holy Spirit knows what is in your heart that you cannot verbalize.
Thank Him for that too - that He knows what is going on in you even though you do not have the words for it.

Like this: - "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I call on You. You know Lord Jesus. Thankyou Lord Jesus that YOU know."

I am trying to cope at the minute, but not sure what I really believe, or if I have faith.

I would advize you to TAKE Christ for everything you need.
That is why He is.

You need a healthier mind? Tell Jesus that you TAKE Him for a healtheir mind.
You need clarity about reality? Take Jesus as your clarity about reality.
Learn that whatever you lack you can take the Perfect Person - the Son of God for that which you need.

Take Christ for everything you are not.
Take Christ for everything you long for.
Take Christ even for where in the past you trusted yourself.
Learn to pray "Lord Jesus You are my ________. " (whatever you need)

Learn to take Jesus for everything and all your soul's needs.
"Lord Jesus, I just take You, Lord Jesus You have to be my __________" (what ever you need.)

Jesus giving us eternal life means He can be all other things to us in this life that we need.
But you have to know and believe that the gift of God in Jesus Christ is eternal life.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am not sure I just think at a fairly young age I didn't take the path of christian faith, and went down a path of gnosis. It would be stuff like Valentianism, and other myths. I couldn't extricate myself from it, when I thought I had had just gone from one sort of gnostic belief to a different one. Later I got into the ideas of Bultmann, Kierkegarrd, Karl Barth, Jung, Nietzsche, Sausaurre, some New Age writers, and some of the postmodernist philosophers.

I think I shifted in my notion of language from Language being the mirror of reality, to language constructing reality.

In relation to how language helps us interact with Reality (big 'R') on the one hand, and how hermeneutics plays into our conception and understanding of the Bible on the other hand, I don't see 'language' as being either of the things you've just cited ...

I think folks get so worked up about realizing they've ended up down the rabbit's hole they fail to realize that everyone is in the conceptual rabbit's hole, epistemologically speaking. Added to this is the concern over being gnostic or not, when the fact remains that while 'gnosis' itself is of course something we have to be careful with, Paul the Apostle advocated that the Christian faith still has 'EPI-GNOSIS' as one of it's goals.

In other words, we need to discern the various denotation of terms, even with our references (and fears) about gnosis that we find in ancient texts, so we each don't get hung up on advoiding some 'error' that, at some level, is also a part of any single human beings conceptual journey towards having faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[dms1972]

I just feel that at some level I am in the grip of unbelief.

 

[dms1972]

I'll say a bit more: Many years ago I attended a renunciation (of idols) service. However I felt it was not going to help because I felt hopeless and close to a breakdown, and didn't think I was ready to make a renunciation. I don't remember the service very clearly other than that gnostic ideas were going round in my mind during it. I began to think to myself that my spirit is caught in this belief system too, my situation is hopeless. So I came away from the service not having made a renunciation and was in a worse state. I felt I was never going to get sorted and I didn't believe. Through some mental tricks and gymnastics as it were I got myself to a place I could appear to others to have a semblance of functionality. Thats still more or less were I think I am.

 

[Miles]

This is such a personal journey that we undertake as individuals. What makes the most sense to you may not be what makes the most sense to me, but here's what I found to be useful.

Sometime in the late '90s I became disillusioned with the social power dynamics within Christian groups. It seemed to me (and still does in some cases) that certain personality types dominated the narrative and were merely using it to suit their personal agendas rather than seeking truth. To the extend that I stopped calling myself a Christian for a time. Why should I believe something that others were just using to suit their own ends? I likewise perceived non-believer communities as functioning the same way so they were equally unappealing. Although I wasn't an atheist, I was 'none of the above' in terms of belief systems.

What brought me back in part was to view God as a definition. A three letter word to describe what is there rather than a list of traits attributed to a deity. For instance, re-framing the idea that "God created the universe" into "what created the universe is what I will call God". The effect of which drew me away from what was essentially a post-structuralist postmodern viewpoint and toward a more modernist interpretation of reality. The modernist perspective is grounded in the scientific and the historical. It is also the perspective most traditionally associated with Christianity more or less since its inception.

Jesus is a real person who walked among us. Although acceptance of his divine nature and resurrection is a matter of belief, historical texts go so far as to lead us to the empty tomb. The leap of faith required isn't so big as to be inconsistent with historical pointers. Both in terms of what was written and in terms of the impact that Jesus had and still has on culture along with his his impact on my own life. Science likewise shows that we live in a world comprised of natural laws and components. Such a world is a created world. Not because of the gaps but because of the things that aren't gaps. As I mentioned earlier, what created the universe is what I call God by definition rather than inserting God into the picture after the fact. This means that I find myself surrounded by evidence of his presence. For me, this is a superior foundation than putting the cart before the horse or basing my faith on ephemeral interpretations and often arbitrary social dynamics. Reinforcing the notion the fundamental reality from which everything flows is the only thing that I will call God. This brings me back to John 1:1. Your experience may vary, and in fact it probably should as we ultimately relate to God on a personal level, and I'm only scratching the surface here, but I felt motivated to share.