Obama upsets US Christians....again

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brewmama

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I'm certainly not denying there is such a thing as PTSD, but triggers are a part of many psychological disorders, not only PTSD.

Why so snotty? Your 2nd link hardly even mentions triggers.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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One other thought:

Coptic Christianity has none of the genocide and racism that secularism, science, and the Enlightenment has.

Coptic Christianity is part of the Oriental Orthodox world.

But neither the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox were on any significant scale involved in the subjugation of Amerindians from Brazil Northward to Canada, nor did the Eastern Orthodox Christian countries and Oriental Orthodox countries colonize these places.

It is in my mind not a wrong that Catholicism called for "A war for the cross" (what enemies of Catholicism latter coined "The Crusades.").

Not that some Crusaders did not commit great evils. They did. Not so unlike some U.S. military men in Vietnam, WWII, or some say the Iraqi war... committed great evils.

But the Christian world was analogous to the secular West today. Islamic military forces had already crashed into, invaded and taken, Eastern Christian territories. The Christian West sat on it's hands (attacked by pagan forces from other directions, however) and did squat. Islamic forces even invaded into Catholic territories. Catholicism still did squat.

At some point Constantinople seeing the writing on the walls asked for the Pope to inspire military aid to support them. Kind of like secular leaders today ask one other to aid each other on the "War on Terrorism" (even 9-11 was like a soft pat on the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] compared to what the Christian world had suffered in attacks centuries ago) or to join together as Crusaders again "evil" Russia.

How Catholicism went about some of that we can see today was problematic and even aided in the fall of Constantinople. Not to mention the Pope refused an alliance with the Mongolian Khan who wanted to wipe Islam off the face of the map, and even offered to attack Egypt and return Egypt to the Christians.

But at least the Crusaders fought. At least they showed up for the fight. Had no one fought all of Europe would be Muslim today.

What is the great sin for Catholicism--in my view--is not the Crusades but the colonial efforts that robbed indigenous people, grossly expolited the natural resources of these territories, and reduced (rather than uplift) millions of people to slavery. Not to mention the horrific Middle Passage alone. Utterly nightmarish and evil.

But Catholicism tied itself too closely to empire and money men. And those two were about colonization.

Money actually ran in the reverse during the Crusades for Crusader kingdoms. It was costing European monarchs money--sending money to those Crusader kingdoms--to keep them afloat. It was not an endeavor that made Europeans rich beyond belief. Although, it did intellectually enrich Europeans by exposing them to the more culturally refined and far more learned Muslims, Jews, and Eastern Christians.

Per the Crusades it does not even have to be viewed as a good guy vs bad guy thing. Especially as there were good and bad and all in between on both sides. But it can simply be viewed as two different social, cultural, religious, and political worlds that were bound to collide at some point. Not unlike secularism waging its Crusade today against the Islamic world and claiming some holy Crusade for "democracy" (Yet, allied with Saudi Arabia--who in fact due to being a different Islamic branch than its enemy neighbors--is instructing the USA to attack Syria, and the USA is 100% silent on Crusading for holy democracy in Saudi Arabia).

My recent western civilization history class pointed out to me that Spanish piety made the country very rich by conquering meso-america, and also helped bankrupt it by its constant inquisitions and so called "holy wars". It spent too much time using the gold to fight wars instead of building an infrastructure to deal with the huge amount of wealth. Spain, you see, was quite butt hurt over their peninsula being controlled by a majority of muslims for like 800 years.

People talk about the atrocities that christians did in the ME during the crusades? You should've have seen what they did at home. They wiped out entire jewish communities during that time with their misdirected piety.

I don't consider religion bad, being a a christian and all, but I wholly understand Jefferson's stance on separation of church and state. Intermixing my faith with politics is bad for both my faith and politics.

Secularism and the englightenment didn't defang religion as much as it ripped it from the political world. The problem is that Islam seemed to have began as an social-religious movement whereas Christianity grew into it and then separated from it[ much to the protest of certain denominations]. It is easy for Christianity to be ripped from politics and government because it wasn't meant to associate with it to begin with. I do not think it is that easy for Islam, unless we push for Sufism to spread across the muslim world maybe?
 
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TerranceL

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I'm certainly not denying there is such a thing as PTSD, but triggers are a part of many psychological disorders, not only PTSD.

Why so snotty? Your 2nd link hardly even mentions triggers.

Why move the goal posts? You just got done telling me that triggers had nothing to do with PTSD.
 
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brewmama

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Why move the goal posts? You just got done telling me that triggers had nothing to do with PTSD.


My point was that triggers are not exclusive to PTSD, which is what you were claiming. Sorry if I misstated it.
 
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createdtoworship

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I think you could do with reading this article. Jesus as the ultra pacifist advocate of non-violence has never been the view of theologians.

actually I have done extensive studies on this very point.

I can clip it if you like.

But Jesus never condemned bearing the sword for protection of country, self, or home/family. Your sources would be correct on this. But He did condemn violence, and never asked his followers to bear any type of sword for war. So in this way, He is pacifistic. Most of the Church Theologians have a limited understanding or a one sided view of this. Christ was a pacifist who asked his #1 followers to defend themselves when He would be Gone because HE would be ascending and could not protect them physically. Self Defense is not offensive violence for the gaining of territory. And in stark contrast to the old testament where there was excessive violence for the gaining and keeping of territory. You need to see the whole picture. Once the Jews were rooted in the promised land, and the messiah's lineage was in action. Violence was no longer needed. That was one reason for the OT, wars. The other was for the purging of pagan sects, that were in effect dangerous to the lands, to the spread of disease, to the the tribes that were to become "set apart for God."

Some times the Jews had righteous kings, but 70-80 percent of the Kings of Israel gave into the culture and did what was right in their own eyes.

I do not think that religion is something to war over. Even though I think that religion is not something to war over. I still think that countries that are ruled by religious governments should be able to structurally defend and arm themselves (at least on a legal level, and not a religious level). Now before there was a separation of church and state, that was how America was. It was a group of religious colonists that wanted free enterprise and free religious liberty. At this point war is a grey area. When the church divides from the state, this is when war becomes a state issue and not a religious issue.

I believe Jesus was a pacifist. But why would he heal the roman centurion’s kid and not rebuke Him for his pagan Job? I think it was because the Jews were at peace, the Romans were not. In one way look at it this way, the Jews were the church, the Romans were the state sort to say. So as Augustine states: it is not good for a Christian to defend themselves, however “Just War” is okay to support, as long as it’s the government doing the war not the Church. A soldier can become a Christian, and yet still bear the sword, as long as the soldiers funding does not come from the Church. But again when the church was one with the state these simple logics become clouded. And yet I believe that Christians should be at the front lines as it comes to adhering to the moralities of fair treatment of prisoners of war, (geneva convention). Where as many muslim militants throw the geneva convention rules out the window and care less how prisoners of war are treated. This is where war becomes evil.


Christ due to the fact that He obviously was here and in existence had no need for violence. The Jews for the most part were in a time of peace in the days of Christ. Christ while he never forbade bearing the sword for country of family, did in fact command his disciples to buy a short sword for their missions in-between cities, in effect to keep them from dangerous bandits. As was the tendency in those days, and even still today. Many tour guides in the middle east are packing weapons. But it is note worthy that the sword mentioned is not a long sword, meant for slaying only. It was a short sword, one that was basically meant for basic protection. But also notice that Christ himself never did bear the sword, and when peter chopped off the ear of the high priest servant, Christ healed him, and rebuked peter. So we see in Christ a pacifism, yes. But not necessarily something He forced on all his disciples. Christ, who could call legions of angels really had no need for a sword. Would He? So yes, you could call him pacifistic in a literal sense. So the post is right here, and it would appear your post is slightly inaccurate.
 
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TLK Valentine

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"Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. . . Slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”

This is the statement that launched a thousand aneurysms. Is anyone still denying that it was, in fact, the truth?
 
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kiwimac

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The president says something. Some people get upset. Who cares? It's not as if I take commands from him nor am I in any way under his "direction" for my actions or reactions, emotional or otherwise.

As for people getting upset - well, it's not likely that they would be if what he said didn't have a ring of truth to it.

Your argument is about the interpretation of Scripture, and while you may be correct in that argument it is equally true that individuals in times past have used/abused/interpreted Scripture for their own ends, including for slavery and for genocide.

There is nothing to get offended at - it is simply the truth.


Indeed, it is!
 
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Star Adept

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I really do not understand, even reading these posts, why people are focusing on the fact that he said that atrocities were committed during the Crusades. It's as if that's all anyone heard and stopped the video/turned off the tv so they could come rage about it.

He said that, yes. It's upsetting to hear, sure. But that wasn't his POINT. He even later in that speech that we, as Americans of faith in human rights (not a quote, I am not claiming it to be), do something about it. The argument about whether he will act or not is another discussion.

His message was that we need to "fight" back. We need to do something. We need to end all violence in the name of religion. Remember your past and do not repeat yourselves in this fight. Do not become hypocrites AGAIN. Fight for basic human rights by showing them the way of the values we hold dear to our faiths (pretty sure he was hinting at Christian America, guys). He wants us to go at this not as "your religious beliefs/radicalism is wrong, and -that's- why you need to be shut down" He wants us to go "violence in the name of religion is wrong, and that's why you need to be shut down" and we can't exactly do that if we don't take some humility and some history with us.
 
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katautumn

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CHRIST (the founder of Christianity) never advocated violence.

Minor point here being that Jesus didn't found Christianity. He paved the way for it, yes, but no one technically founded the Christian faith. The word "Christian" doesn't even appear until Acts 11. Another interesting point is that in the Old Testament, God most certainly advocated violence of all sorts, including the murdering of newborns. So, did God change His mind on violence?
 
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Star Adept

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He didn't go far enough. He should have added, since he was giving history lessons, that Christianity has evolved past the violence in its history, and certain other faiths should learn from that.

But that would probably be too much.

it would be unjust to say that Christians have moved passed Islamic views. It puts us in that "Better than you" category, and isn't entirely true. The majority of Christians are not violent, sure, but modern Christians still commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, therefore he would be giving a blanket statement that is not true. As the president of America, he has a duty to avoid saying those things. Freedom and defense of Human Rights is what he has to stand for, he cannot treat Christians like we're the only ones that do that. It's more like "be like America" not "be like Christians" even though we were founded on many of those values.
 
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grandvizier1006

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He didn't go far enough. He should have added, since he was giving history lessons, that Christianity has evolved past the violence in its history, and certain other faiths should learn from that.

But that would probably be too much.

Exactly. What bothered me is that he brought up the Crusades and the Inquisition without trying to tie it together and say "Religions can be used for good or bad". That would have made more sense then just "Don't be so arrogant in thinking Islam is evil, Christians! (we don't all think that but whatever, people like to generalize their opponents). Remember the Crusades and the Inquisition? I don't care if they happened centuries ago, I still hold a grudge against Christianity for it!" And slavery and Jim Crow really can't be blamed squarely on Christianity so much as it can be the Southern brand of Christianity which seemed to be very hypocritical in this regard. And considering that the slave trade and segregation were ended in movements led by Christians, it's just appalling for Obama to be ignorant of history and distort it to suit his mindset of "the white man has been cruel to me". Christianity isn't supposed to be "for the white people" only.

He could have also pointed out some GOOD things that were facilitated by Christians and suggested that Islam could do the same and that that could be facilitated by getting rid of ISIS. But he still won't acknowledge that ISIS is Islamic. Why? Just because he's a Muslim sympathizer (not actually a Muslim, though) doesn't mean that he has to turn a blind eye to extremism.
 
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variant

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Does, "SEE CHRISTIANS DID IT TOO!!" do that though?

Most Christians I know aren't big fans of the inquisition or crusades, just like most Muslims I know aren't big fans of terrorism.

I'm not sure overall though, as there seems to be a good percentage of Muslims that are OK with things like ISIS until it blows back their way. Jordan's war against ISIS was unpopular until they got their own prisoner executed.

Just a few weeks ago Egypt arrested a man for being an atheist, and it doesn't seem to me like that country is up in arms about it.

I don't think this 'liberal' tip toeing around the fact that barbarism is more accepted in the Muslim world today doesn't really stand up for liberal values.

Christianity has it's sins too like their intervention in Uganda trumping up violence and rights violations against gay people but it is by no means the same or as wide spread.

No group should be completely broad brushed by the actions of their most extreme, but that doesn't mean that oppressive theocracy today isn't almost always happening in Muslim countries.
 
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wing2000

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I really do not understand, even reading these posts, why people are focusing on the fact that he said that atrocities were committed during the Crusades. It's as if that's all anyone heard and stopped the video/turned off the tv so they could come rage about it.

He said that, yes. It's upsetting to hear, sure. But that wasn't his POINT. He even later in that speech that we, as Americans of faith in human rights (not a quote, I am not claiming it to be), do something about it. The argument about whether he will act or not is another discussion.

His message was that we need to "fight" back. We need to do something. We need to end all violence in the name of religion. Remember your past and do not repeat yourselves in this fight. Do not become hypocrites AGAIN. Fight for basic human rights by showing them the way of the values we hold dear to our faiths (pretty sure he was hinting at Christian America, guys). He wants us to go at this not as "your religious beliefs/radicalism is wrong, and -that's- why you need to be shut down" He wants us to go "violence in the name of religion is wrong, and that's why you need to be shut down" and we can't exactly do that if we don't take some humility and some history with us.

Thank you for taking the time to consider the entirety of the speech. The Telegraph piece is basically quoting right wing ideologues with their own political agenda.

Adding the transcript:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/02/05/remarks-president-national-prayer-breakfast
 
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createdtoworship

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"Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. . . Slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”

This is the statement that launched a thousand aneurysms. Is anyone still denying that it was, in fact, the truth?

this is simply a fallacy, and not even worth responding to.

please look up poisoning the well fallacy.

here let me post one of my fav's regarding logical fallacy websites:
Poisoning the Well
 
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tulc

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this is simply a fallacy, and not even worth responding to.

please look up poisoning the well fallacy.

here let me post one of my fav's regarding logical fallacy websites:
Poisoning the Well

uhmmmm...isn't the first sentence in your post more an example of "poisoning the well" then the post you quoted? :confused:
tulc(is just sayn') :sorry:
 
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mkgal1

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I really do not understand, even reading these posts, why people are focusing on the fact that he said that atrocities were committed during the Crusades. It's as if that's all anyone heard and stopped the video/turned off the tv so they could come rage about it.

He said that, yes. It's upsetting to hear, sure. But that wasn't his POINT. He even later in that speech that we, as Americans of faith in human rights (not a quote, I am not claiming it to be), do something about it. The argument about whether he will act or not is another discussion.

His message was that we need to "fight" back. We need to do something. We need to end all violence in the name of religion. Remember your past and do not repeat yourselves in this fight. Do not become hypocrites AGAIN. Fight for basic human rights by showing them the way of the values we hold dear to our faiths (pretty sure he was hinting at Christian America, guys). He wants us to go at this not as "your religious beliefs/radicalism is wrong, and -that's- why you need to be shut down" He wants us to go "violence in the name of religion is wrong, and that's why you need to be shut down" and we can't exactly do that if we don't take some humility and some history with us.




Thank you for taking the time to consider the entirety of the speech. The Telegraph piece is basically quoting right wing ideologues with their own political agenda.

Adding the transcript:
Remarks by the President at National Prayer Breakfast | The White House

I agree.

A perspective that I agree with is written here:

Religion isn't the problem. Power crazy people hijacking religion and using it as a weapon of mass destruction is the problem. And ISIS is to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity -- a perversion of the religion of millions of faithful people turned into a scourge that should be an anathema to people of all faiths and people of no faith.~An "Amen" from a Priest for the President | Rev. Susan Russell
 
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