Norway Begins Adoption Process for 5 Children Seized From Christian Parents

[Maren]

the people are free to believe... what the government like

In 2011, the Norwegian Ombudsman for Children (that is the Child Advocate), Reidar Hjerman, has suggested to the head translator of the modern version of the Bible, Hans Olav-Mørk, to remove the term “discipline” (tukt) from some verses and proposed using the word “rebuke” (irettesette). Unfortunately, totally unprofessionally and unscientifically, the term was removed from the verses where it has the meaning of physical punishment. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Evighet-og-tukt-pa-vei-ut-av-Bibelen-6535287.html

I agree that he shouldn't have done it. But I don't see it as any more "unprofessional or unscientific" than the Conservative Bible project that American conservatives were already working on.

 

[brinny]

Maxine case
In late March and April 2015 Barnevernet took away 2.5-month-old Maxine girl whose mother is deaf Norwegian and father is Slovak. As the main reason given was "lack of eye contact between girl and her parents".


I'm "glad" many of you are against such abuse.

There is something seriously wrong here. Praying.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Traditionally, people die slow and painful deaths from cancer. With modern medicine, more and more do not.

Oh, contraire. Chemotherapy causes terrible and severe complications, including heart problems, making the quality of life much worse for those struggling against cancer.

The same thing used to be said about hormone replacement therapy in women, going through menopause. They couldn't possibly deal with hot flashes, mood swings, and a dry vagina! No, they MUST take estrogen to alleviate those awful symptoms at all costs.
Except then we found that we were causing cancer.

Man always thinks he knows better than God, but never does.

 

[DaisyDay]

Oh, contraire. Chemotherapy causes terrible and severe complications, including heart problems, making the quality of life much worse for those struggling against cancer.

Chemo's not pleasant, but it's not all that bad either, speaking from my own experience. It may or may not cause complications in any given case, but cancer causes pain and death.

The same thing used to be said about hormone replacement therapy in women, going through menopause. They couldn't possibly deal with hot flashes, mood swings, and a dry vagina! No, they MUST take estrogen to alleviate those awful symptoms at all costs.

No, not at "all costs", but many women do experience severe symptoms which HRT alleviates.

Except then we found that we were causing cancer.

Increasing the risk of certain types of cancer. It's a judgement call between a woman and her doctor as to what treatment is appropriate for her situation.

Man always thinks he knows better than God, but never does.

Who knows what God thinks, but I'll take modern medicine over (or in addition to) prayer when I get sick. Do naturopaths think they know better than God?

 

[TheNorwegian]

the people are free to believe... what the government like

In 2011, the Norwegian Ombudsman for Children (that is the Child Advocate), Reidar Hjerman, has suggested to the head translator of the modern version of the Bible, Hans Olav-Mørk, to remove the term “discipline” (tukt) from some verses and proposed using the word “rebuke” (irettesette). Unfortunately, totally unprofessionally and unscientifically, the term was removed from the verses where it has the meaning of physical punishment. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Evighet-og-tukt-pa-vei-ut-av-Bibelen-6535287.html

Wow! You are even able to say whether a given Bible translation in Norwegian is "unprofessional and unscientifical". This you can do even without speaking Norwegian. How do you do it? Is God telling you this?

For the record: That particular Bible translation is very good, but in case someone who reads Norwegian (unlike you) disagree with this translation, he has a wide selection of other translation

Are you not the slightest bit ashamed for spreading gossip about people who is investing a lot of effort into translating the Bible?

 

[keith99]

Wow! You are even able to say whether a given Bible translation in Norwegian is "unprofessional and unscientifical". This you can do even without speaking Norwegian. How do you do it? Is God telling you this?

For the record: That particular Bible translation is very good, but in case someone who reads Norwegian (unlike you) disagree with this translation, he has a wide selection of other translation

Are you not the slightest bit ashamed for spreading gossip about people who is investing a lot of effort into translating the Bible?

And all based on a translation of an article into English it seems!

The Vodka is desirous, but the meat is rotten!

 

[TheNorwegian]

And all based on a translation of an article into English it seems!

An article which does not even say what he claims. Not in Norwegian at least, I do not use Google Translate when reading Norwegian

The Vodka is desirous, but the meat is rotten!

You've got a talent for Bible translations[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Blue Wren]

All I know is that where I live, Child Protective Services doesn't need any proof to take children from good families, based on a literal whim of a physician, or on some other perceived 'expert' in society (usually someone who works in a government institution).

It's real people. It's happening. The government can and will take your kids away, and the burden of proof and need to fight back will fall to the parent to get the kid back. (seen it in action and even testified in court in a similar case).

It's even worse when it is a sick child and the parents do not believe in pharmaceutical cancer treatment. Then the dying child will be taken away and forced into whatever treatment the government says is best.

Thank-you for telling us this, as it gave me the opportunity to give a prayer of gratitude. As a Christian in medical school, I am very grateful to know that the Child Protective Services where you live act promptly in caring for critically ill children whose parents jeopardise their lives.

Unless the cancer is indolent, there is not the luxury of time, to convince the parents to provide their children with proper medical care. Cancer can progress very rapidly, leading to blindness, the need for a limb to be amputated, and other permanent problems. Diabetes and other medical conditions also demand timely medical care, to preserve life. If adults wish to be lead by their hubris, instead of medical professionals, that is their choice. Jessica Ainscough died young, due to her refusal to follow medical care, in favour of woo, but, at least she was an adult who made her choices for herself.

Oh, yeah. There are a whole bunch of us naturalists into more traditional healing modalities, and not so much into atheistic allopathic medicine. We aren't crazy or delusional. We are smart.

After all, you are really just putting your life into the hands of big pharma, with big money issues. Does that sound smart?

The hallmark, of the crazy and delusional person, is that they do not realise they are crazy and delusional. Grandiosity is also very common.

It is very wise, to listen to experienced medical professionals, who rely upon an abundance of evidence, instead of people on the internet, who write about "atheistic allopathic medicine." Many physicians are Christians. Luke, was the "beloved physician." The head of the NIH, in America, is a Christian.

Oh, yeah. But if you care to research it, many scientists and researchers are saying radiation, chemo, and surgery are not the answers for cancer treatment we once thought, and might actually do a LOT more harm.

So, it's like a child being taken and tortured. And the parents, who love the child the most, having to stand helplessly by and do nothing, or comply with this evil agenda.

Do you know what is torturous? Cancer that is not treated properly. Losing your limb, your sight, because of cancer or diabetes that advanced untreated. Losing a child, who had a cancer with a very high survival rate with proper medical treatment, because that treatment was turned down in favour of quackery. Much of the "allopathic" medicine, is torturous, as well as extremely expensive.

Making families who have a loved one with cancer, feel guilty and as if they are supporting torture, because of statements such as yours, is terribly wrong. My father's experience with chemotherapy, and radiation, was not the "torture" we feared it would be. We have him, thanks to this treatment, and he is tremendously healthy. It didn't cost our family anything financially. The treatment that is commonly given, in Sweden, for cancer, is the same or very similar, to what is given in America. He is not unique. There are risks, in the treatments for many types of cancer, yes, but, the risks of not providing them, are almost always far higher.

It is your agenda, that I think is evil.

 

[Blue Wren]

Blind support of government scares me. And that's all I've got to say now, after reading this thread.

Blind mistrust of government scares me. I do not see any posts in this thread, that indicate that anyone here has blind support of the government. I think perhaps you see, in black, or white, whereas others realise there's more on the spectrum.

Hopefully the authorities never show up at your door wanting to take your children, because I fear you'd hand them over, probably gladly.

I'm out.

I fear you'd vigorously support parents, who secretly molest their children, if they put on the show of being innocent and claim they were the victims of Christian persecution.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Blind mistrust of government scares me. I do not see any posts in this thread, that indicate that anyone here has blind support of the government. I think perhaps you see, in black, or white, whereas others realise there's more on the spectrum.

I fear you'd vigorously support parents, who secretly molest their children, if they put on the show of being innocent and claim they were the victims of Christian persecution.

Nice strawman. I'm not the one insisting that CPS always has a good reason for removing children.

Unfortunately in this world, I can't let my boys go the park by themselves now because I fear some "dogooder" will call the police and say that they are being neglected (and don't think it wouldn't happen because it HAS happened here in the states and the parents got in trouble for it) ((I'm sure you believe that there must've been more to the story for them to have gotten in trouble, but no, there wasn't)).

We don't often let non-family members babysit our children, because our kids inherited our sense of humor, and I'd hate to have CPS called because one of the littles jokes about something inappropriate (in that person's mind, anyway).

One of our friends had her kids removed for a week while CPS investigated her. Why, you ask? Because she went to pick up her 9 year old boy from a home daycare and saw him pushing another kid down. She went over to the two kids and talked to them for a few minutes and then playfully pushed HER 9 year old down. He was laughing when he got up, no harm, no foul, and he apologized to the other kid he pushed down. Daycare owner saw this, and notified CPS of "abusive behavior". Sure, she and her husband got her kids back, but they're on a list now. Any time they go the hospital, guess who gets a call? The son went through huge depression because he thought it was his fault because he pushed a kid down. When they explained that it was because of his mom being mean to him, he defended her. They weren't able to go on vacations for a long time because they couldn't leave the state without getting permission, and because the son was terrified of packing a suitcase.

So please don't tell me about black and white. I don't think you have children, and I believe that if and when you do have children, your opinions on these types of cases will change.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Nice strawman. I'm not the one insisting that CPS always has a good reason for removing children.

Unfortunately in this world, I can't let my boys go the park by themselves now because I fear some "dogooder" will call the police and say that they are being neglected (and don't think it wouldn't happen because it HAS happened here in the states and the parents got in trouble for it) ((I'm sure you believe that there must've been more to the story for them to have gotten in trouble, but no, there wasn't)).

We don't often let non-family members babysit our children, because our kids inherited our sense of humor, and I'd hate to have CPS called because one of the littles jokes about something inappropriate (in that person's mind, anyway).

One of our friends had her kids removed for a week while CPS investigated her. Why, you ask? Because she went to pick up her 9 year old boy from a home daycare and saw him pushing another kid down. She went over to the two kids and talked to them for a few minutes and then playfully pushed HER 9 year old down. He was laughing when he got up, no harm, no foul, and he apologized to the other kid he pushed down. Daycare owner saw this, and notified CPS of "abusive behavior". Sure, she and her husband got her kids back, but they're on a list now. Any time they go the hospital, guess who gets a call? The son went through huge depression because he thought it was his fault because he pushed a kid down. When they explained that it was because of his mom being mean to him, he defended her. They weren't able to go on vacations for a long time because they couldn't leave the state without getting permission, and because the son was terrified of packing a suitcase.

So please don't tell me about black and white. I don't think you have children, and I believe that if and when you do have children, your opinions on these types of cases will change.

Aha! So, this is all projection! Since these things happen in your country, you are sure it must also happen in Norway.

You should come and visit and epxerience a different society. Everybody let their children play outdoor alone (except for toddlers of course). Nobody in Norway gets in trouble with CPS because of such nonsense.

 

[Butterfly99]

Take that, y'all! Disagree with me and you're child-hating monsters.

This coming from the same lady (who is in her 40s!!!!) who got all dramatic & said that she was being personally attacked by ppl in this thread. All cause she wrote that she was so thankful that she didn't live in Norway, & we said if she wasn't willing to respect their laws then the folks in Norway are probably pretty thankful she doesn't live there.

 

[Butterfly99]

Aha! So, this is all projection! Since these things happen in your country, you are sure it must also happen in Norway.

You should come and visit and epxerience a different society. Everybody let their children play outdoor alone (except for toddlers of course). Nobody in Norway gets in trouble with CPS because of such nonsense.

My family has been fostering kids for more than a decade. We have a LOT of experience with CPS & I have to say I disagree with this lady so much. I'm not allowed to give personal details about the kids we've had & their backgrounds but I'll just say that there's always more than 1 side to a story. It's the parents who admit they messed up who I tend to trust much more than the ones who will claim they are blameless victims. Get to know their kids & then you get to see who is really the victim. There are a lot of ppl who cry wolf. There are also a lot of ppl who try to pretend like their sheep when THEY are the wolf.

 

[Butterfly99]

Blind mistrust of government scares me. I do not see any posts in this thread, that indicate that anyone here has blind support of the government. I think perhaps you see, in black, or white, whereas others realise there's more on the spectrum.



I fear you'd vigorously support parents, who secretly molest their children, if they put on the show of being innocent and claim they were the victims of Christian persecution.

Bravo! Very well said.

I meant to quote both of your posts from today, but didn't realize the other one wasn't included, lol. Well bravo to both.

 

[Tallguy88]

This coming from the same lady (who is in her 40s!!!!) who got all dramatic & said that she was being personally attacked by ppl in this thread. All cause she wrote that she was so thankful that she didn't live in Norway, & we said if she wasn't willing to respect their laws then the folks in Norway are probably pretty thankful she doesn't live there.

Why would someone being in their 40s have a negative bearing on whether their opinion is valid or not? Considering the issues being discussed, I would consider the opinion of a 40 year old parent to carry more weight than the teenage and early 20s posters without kids who claim they know differently.

 

[Butterfly99]

Why would someone being in their 40s have a negative bearing on whether their opinion is valid or not? Considering the issues being discussed, I would consider the opinion of a 40 year old parent to carry more weight than the teenage and early 20s posters without kids who claim they know differently.

Her being in her 40s has no bearing on whether her opinion is valid. That wasn't my point at all. I wasn't going to write this but now I feel kinda compelled to cause of your post. What surprised me is her immaturity considering she's a middle-aged parent. Like Daisy wrote, PreacherWife2004's comment was basically saying "Take that, y'all! Disagree with me and you're child-hating monsters." To me it came across as a flame, & a really petty & juvenile one for her age. Tbh it came across as kinda hypocritical too considering how she got all dramatic earlier on & said she was being personally attacked when she hadn't been at all. In that same post she also wrote "I'm out." That's something kids do online all the time. They get in a disagreement. They huff on out, then they come right back on in, cause they need the last word. That's just what this lady did. If she was 13 I'd be like well OK then but she's in her 40s. I showed this thread to my class last week cause we talked about the news story. My teacher is like maybe 60 & was taken aback too so it's not just me.

I don't really see that her being a parent in her 40s automatically means her opinions count for more. They don't count for less either. I mean like I wrote before, my family has been fostering kids now for over a decade. My grandparents were foster parents for about 30 yrs. I can't reveal that much for privacy reasons but I will tell you this. What kids who've gained trust with you will tell you about how their parents have treated them often paints a totally different picture than what tale their parents have spun. I believe the kids over the parents most of the time. I've also seen with my own eyes the damage that has been done to some of them, by their parents who pretend they're the victims. We're not allowed to disclose anything & most of the time the kids are not wanting to put stuff out there either. So it's just one side getting told. I don't see CPS as being w/out its flaws cause I know they've made some mistakes, sometimes grave ones, but I also know some wonderful folks who have literally saved kids lives. I know there are kids who've been abused by their parents, but their parents make themselves look like their saints to the public. Considering that the public tends to not take that kindly to child abusers, it's not that surprising the parents would claim they were totally blameless & being victimized by CPS.

 

[vasile]

Wow! You are even able to say whether a given Bible translation in Norwegian is "unprofessional and unscientifical". This you can do even without speaking Norwegian. How do you do it? Is God telling you this?

For the record: That particular Bible translation is very good, but in case someone who reads Norwegian (unlike you) disagree with this translation, he has a wide selection of other translation

Are you not the slightest bit ashamed for spreading gossip about people who is investing a lot of effort into translating the Bible?

The main problem is where this idea started from: a government official.
http://www.vl.no/tukt-fjernet-fra-ny-oversettelse-1.76623
I can show you many studies on the subject but this is not the right place and I think you can easily find them if you are interested in further studies.

 

[Nithavela]

Oh, contraire. Chemotherapy causes terrible and severe complications, including heart problems, making the quality of life much worse for those struggling against cancer.

The same thing used to be said about hormone replacement therapy in women, going through menopause. They couldn't possibly deal with hot flashes, mood swings, and a dry vagina! No, they MUST take estrogen to alleviate those awful symptoms at all costs.
Except then we found that we were causing cancer.

Man always thinks he knows better than God, but never does.

I guess that's why our lives are so short and miserable these days, in contrast to the middle ages when people trusted in god and leeches?

 

[TheNorwegian]

The main problem is where this idea started from: a government official. http://www.vl.no/tukt-fjernet-fra-ny-oversettelse-1.76623 .

No, it didn't start with an official. How stupid are you really? Do you think government controls Bible translations in Norway??

Now, I actually read the link provided. The article clearly states that this translation did not originate with the official. Do yiou not even care to read your own links?

 

[vasile]

Agree! Why did you bring up this point?

because of this point!

It is true that Norway is secular in the sense that people are free to believe - or not believe - whatever they like. Still, many of our laws are strongly influenced by Christianity. However, most Christians in Norway believe Jesus was against violence, including beating children. If you read what Jesus said, this should not really comes as a surprise. To my surprise many Christians in the US seem ro disagree.

Many Christians in the US disagree because they understand discipline the right way!
I can see clearly the Ombudsman interference in this matter but you seem to deny everything is related with CPS abuses and state interference in private and religious life. And don't think you are smart if you call people stupid.