NonDenom here, at a crossroads.. Catholic or Episcopalian?

[QWERTY]

You don't have to be perfectly in line with what the Church teaches, you only have to be respect and open in your mind to it. Faith is a discovery of truth that leads to God - not something that you fancy.

God is not a democracy. God knows your opinions are right or wrong, regardless of their justification.

Protestants ask "Which is the right church for me?" and at the same time say they believe in some universal Church made up of very idiot and their idiotic opinion. I can't imagine anything more intellectually dishonest than the lame theological foundations of Anglicans. The Catholic suffered under the medieval play between politics and religion. The Anglican church is the product politics and religion. It has no place in the modern world except to market itself, to harlot itself theologically to what brings in the most.

That is exactly what I was hoping. If I were to become Catholic, I couldn't promise that I would be able to conform my beliefs to fit the Church's, nor could I promise I could believe wholeheartedly that the men in charge of the Church are infallible in their teachings. I would, however, be completely open to the idea that what they teach is correct and what I believe is wrong. I don't expect to ever know the answer to that question in this life, and I'm fine with that.

Episcopalian. If your views are more Episcopalian go to an Episcopalian church. Simple.

Is it that simple though? It may be that way with picking a political party, but I just don't think God wants people to pick their places of worship based 100% on what they feel. Just because the Episcopal church may agree with me on those issues doesn't mean they are the church closest to God in the ways that REALLY matter (an example {in my opinion} charity and caring for the poor).

What I really meant was that you should attend Mass at a few different local churches and see which one you seem to be most comfortable in. Before you go, you could look at their websites--most will have bulletins posted. Where do their priorities seem to lie--in terms of ministries, programs, etc.?

It sounds like you are young. Are there many young people in the congregation? What kind of support do they offer young families? Do they have a school?

What is their pastor like? His homily will give you clues about his personality...

I have only been tempted to throw tomatoes twice during homilies...the first time, many years ago, was when a priest told the congregation that parents who didn't send their children to Catholic schools were committing a serious sin! The second was when a priest said, "How can you expect your children not to be sexually active when you can't control your own desires?" (This was a birth control homily at Mass.)

The first priest was elitist and snobbish (as was the parish--the one two miles south was way nicer).

The second priest was just clueless...teenagers don't think about their parents' sex lives, period, and ANY information is TMI for them--wasn't that how you were when you were a teenager? And he was just clueless on all sorts of levels---but his pastor was amazing, and the parish was amazing.

Thanks for the advice, I will use it.

So about that second homily you mentioned, does the Church teach that it is wrong for married adults to sometimes have sex solely for pleasure? And on birth control, what are the consequences of a married couple that uses it? Like I mentioned earlier, my soon to be wife was put on a form of birth control to help with certain health issues. Is it even considered bad in instances such as that? What if I just don't agree with that one teaching?

Sorry for all the questions, Fantine.

 

[benedictaoo]

See, that's the reason why I am skeptical of the Episcopal Church: it lines up too well with what I already believe.

That's why I haven't completely counted the Catholic Church out, despite the couple issues I disagree on. While I don't necessarily think that I'm wrong on all of those issues and the RCC is right on them, I definitely am not vain enough to believe I know everything and my views HAVE to be the correct ones.

With that said, I also don't believe that just because the Catholic Church says something is a certain way, it has to be a certain way. While I can understand and get behind the idea that the current RCC grew out of the original Church on Earth that Jesus founded, I can't get behind the idea that every single teaching it has is correct simply because the men who came to that assessment happen to be part of the Catholic Church.

Nothing human is perfect, and nothing perfect is human.

Regardless of the above, GoingByzantine, your response best represents how I was feeling about before posting; If I believe in Christ as my savior and I'm completely in line with the RCC on the most important doctrinal Christian theologies, I don't really see a reason why I can't be Catholic and still maintain my personal opinions. Is there a reason I couldn't that someone could tell me? And if there is, does that mean that liberal Catholics like Joe Biden are really not true Catholics?


Thanks for all help/advice/opinions, guys.

Umm, truth is objective. What we think, feel, and believe is subjective.

 

[QWERTY]

Umm, truth is objective. What we think, feel, and believe is subjective.

Yeah, I know. But generally speaking, Church teachings tend to fall into the 'subjective' category, along with my formed opinions. Neither can be factually proven.

Believe me, if everything the Catholic church taught could be objectively confirmed by a personal phone call from God, I don't think Protestant churches would exist xD

 

[Fantine]

The Church teaches that sexual acts should always be open to life and that the only acceptable way to space births is through abstinence during the fertile periods. That doesn't mean that sex can't be enjoyed.

You are probably better off asking younger posters about this because it's been a number of years since this has been an issue for me.

 

[mark46]

That is exactly what I was hoping. If I were to become Catholic, I couldn't promise that I would be able to conform my beliefs to fit the Church's, nor could I promise I could believe wholeheartedly that the men in charge of the Church are infallible in their teachings. I would, however, be completely open to the idea that what they teach is correct and what I believe is wrong. I don't expect to ever know the answer to that question in this life, and I'm fine with that.



Is it that simple though? It may be that way with picking a political party, but I just don't think God wants people to pick their places of worship based 100% on what they feel. Just because the Episcopal church may agree with me on those issues doesn't mean they are the church closest to God in the ways that REALLY matter (an example {in my opinion} charity and caring for the poor).



Thanks for the advice, I will use it.

So about that second homily you mentioned, does the Church teach that it is wrong for married adults to sometimes have sex solely for pleasure? And on birth control, what are the consequences of a married couple that uses it? Like I mentioned earlier, my soon to be wife was put on a form of birth control to help with certain health issues. Is it even considered bad in instances such as that? What if I just don't agree with that one teaching?

Sorry for all the questions, Fantine.

Are you saying that you affirm all the teachings of the Catholic Church with the one exception of the teaching regarding artificial contraception?

 

[RileyG]

Hi all, first post here. Let me start by saying I understand this is the Catholic board and you guys will be naturally biased. Let me explain my problem.

So I was baptized in a Baptist Church as a kid and eventually fell away from it and considered myself 'nondenominational'. Well, I eventually started going to a nondenominational church with the family and found that not only did they have different values from me, I also didn't enjoy the contemporary setting.

A month ago I tried out a Catholic church for the first time and fell in love with liturgy. The last two or three weeks I've attended Episcopal churches for the first time as well.

Well, I know I want to join one of the two, but and I lean towards Catholic based on the culture (I'm of Italian descent, so it just makes sense haha) and the history. I also believe that it is, by extension, the church Jesus founded.

Problem is, when it comes to my values, I lean towards the mainstream stances of the Episcopal church. Examples: I see no problem with married women using birth control. I'm personally against abortion, but agree more with the pro-choice argument. I see no real issue with women being ordained. I'm also a supporter of equal rights for homosexuals (knowing a few gay people really puts things into perspective and makes you realize that they deserve the same rights you have).

Now, I know that last paragraph is chock-FULL of things that the Catholic church teaches against, but I know some Catholics that agree with me on those issues and it doesn't seem to affect their worthiness. There are also famous Catholics, such as Joe Biden and Stephen Colbert, that disagree with the church on a number of the above issues.



Should I join the Catholic church despite the points I disagree on, or should I just join the Episcopal church despite the lack of direction and history?


CAN I even join the Catholic church with those views? How do the above mentioned liberal Catholics deal with their disagreements with the Church?


Thanks so much, guys.

You should speak to a priest on these issues or go to the catechism.

God Bless you.

 

[QWERTY]

Are you saying that you affirm all the teachings of the Catholic Church with the one exception of the teaching regarding artificial contraception?

Oh gosh no! I don't know enough about all church teachings to say for sure that is the case. I would have to study more.

As far as artificial contraception is concerned, yes, at this point in time I do not affirm that teaching. It just doesn't make sense to me why ALL forms must be banned. Maybe in the future my mindset will change, but right now, I'm firmly in the 'pro certain birth controls' camp. Especially since my fiance is going to be off and on it for health reasons. I see no reason why I should make her get off of something that is medically helping her just because the Church teaches against it. Especially when they give little to no clear reasoning for banning ALL forms, other than "all sex should be procreation sex."

 

[chevyontheriver]

Problem is, when it comes to my values, I lean towards the mainstream stances of the Episcopal church. Examples: I see no problem with married women using birth control. I'm personally against abortion, but agree more with the pro-choice argument. I see no real issue with women being ordained. I'm also a supporter of equal rights for homosexuals (knowing a few gay people really puts things into perspective and makes you realize that they deserve the same rights you have).

Now, I know that last paragraph is chock-FULL of things that the Catholic church teaches against, but I know some Catholics that agree with me on those issues and it doesn't seem to affect their worthiness. There are also famous Catholics, such as Joe Biden and Stephen Colbert, that disagree with the church on a number of the above issues.

Should I join the Catholic church despite the points I disagree on, or should I just join the Episcopal church despite the lack of direction and history?

CAN I even join the Catholic church with those views? How do the above mentioned liberal Catholics deal with their disagreements with the Church?

Fix your eyes on Jesus. If you are not doing that you are wasting your time no matter which you pick. You can be a cafeteria Catholic and totally miss out on Jesus. Or a great Episcopalian and totally miss out on Jesus. Or even be a conservative or traditionalist Catholic and totally miss out on Jesus too. People do it all the time, missing out on Jesus even though they appear to be oh so religious.

If you want to be a disciple of Jesus you might find that you need to adapt your positions a bit. An ecclesial group that only confirms culturally dominant positions is one that doesn't seem like one very faithful to Jesus.

That Joe Biden does not keep the Catholic faith is ultimately his business, but it looks like his attention to being a disciple of Jesus might be a bit lacking. He assures everybody that he is a great Catholic but I think he would fit in far better Episcopalian. I do think everyone can and ought to be a Catholic, but if they cannot at least try to live a Catholic life and believe as Catholics ought to do they should do something else and at least be more honest.

Becoming Catholic should be something you do in all seriousness in agreement with all of Catholic teaching. If you want to take your time until you can make the affirmations becoming Catholic requires, then great. I hope and pray you do. You have your other option.

 

[thecolorsblend]

That Joe Biden does not keep the Catholic faith is ultimately his business, but it looks like his attention to being a disciple of Jesus might be a bit lacking. He assures everybody that he is a great Catholic but I think he would fit in far better Episcopalian. I do think everyone can and ought to be a Catholic, but if they cannot at least try to live a Catholic life and believe as Catholics ought to do they should do something else and at least be more honest.

It's a bit aggravating, actually. As best I can tell Biden escapes all censure for his actions. And yet we faithful have been told by some priests that voting for Biden or someone like him requires a trip to Confession afterward. It seems a bit hypocritical. I go with it, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit wrongheaded to take no action against Biden but insist I go to Confession if I vote for him.

 

[QWERTY]

It's a bit aggravating, actually. As best I can tell Biden escapes all censure for his actions. And yet we faithful have been told by some priests that voting for Biden or someone like him requires a trip to Confession afterward. It seems a bit hypocritical. I go with it, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit wrongheaded to take no action against Biden but insist I go to Confession if I vote for him.

Wait, they say things like that? Voting Democrat gets you an automatic sin to confess?

Maybe the Episcopal church is for me xD (kidding)

But seriously, that's dumb.
It almost sounds like being a 'good Catholic' and being 'human' at the same time is impossible haha.

 

[thecolorsblend]

To be fair, I've heard second hand that priests have said that. I've never heard one say it myself though.

As others have said, it's fine to have an opinion. But we are to conform ourselves to Church teachings as best we can. When it comes to voting, it's hard sometimes to figure out how best to do it. The older I get, the more economically left I find myself going. I don't believe in unfettered capitalism (as it makes way too big a priority out of money and profit at the expense of what's good for employees) so I can't bring myself to vote for most Republicans. And the Democrat Party platform's position on abortion makes me very reluctant to ever support them. So where does someone who's socially right of center and economically left of center go?

Anyway, as for you, I'd recommend meeting with a Catholic priest and asking him about your concerns. Odds are he'll be able to give you clear answers.

 

[seekingsolace]

Protestants ask "Which is the right church for me?" and at the same time say they believe in some universal Church made up of very idiot and their idiotic opinion. I can't imagine anything more intellectually dishonest than the lame theological foundations of Anglicans. The Catholic suffered under the medieval play between politics and religion. The Anglican church is the product politics and religion. It has no place in the modern world except to market itself, to harlot itself theologically to what brings in the most.

A little abusive in wording. Not nice.

 

[Fantine]

Interesting concept--that everyone but the "perfect" miss out on Jesus.

On this side of eternity, no one will ever completely experience Jesus. Neither will anyone "miss out" on Jesus--even non-Christians. After all, in the dying Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists in India, Mother Teresa saw Jesus in his distressing disguise, because God lives in the goodness present in every human being, and God expresses Himself whenever we express that good to others.

So, paradoxically, the perfectionist who finds fault with everyone and sees mistakes and error all around him may miss out on Jesus more than anyone.

 

[benedictaoo]

Biden and others are still
catholic but they are not in line with Catholic teaching. As you study more you do come to understand Catholic teaching as time goes on.

And to point out, anytime they take Communion they may be taking it in judgement of their sins. These are NOT good Catholics and their examples are down right scandalous.

QWERTY, you have been given some bad advice. You have been given some good advice and some okay advice but here's the bottom line, if you think you can enter the Catholic Church while disagreeing with certain moral doctrines and being for immorals things the Church teaches us are against God's laws, just know that when we receive Holy Communion and say, Amen, what we are professing is that we do accecpt and are in union with all that mother Church purposes for our belief in union with the pope, in union with one another. I really do not think that many Catholics truly under what this unity is about. Its about unity in belief.

Anyway, I don't care what others are telling you, you might not understand, you might struggle but it must all be in the direction of coming to accept. You cannot just opt to disagree. You are displaying rejection based on what you want to believe and what you want. This is open dissent and that is never allowed and I don't care what others say, I'm giving it to you straight. If you want to be given licsense to form your own moral code then Catholicism is not for you. We are to have the mind of the Church which is the mind of Christ. In that truth lies true freedom.

 

[Michie]

How does that work? Priests say your vote may lead to confession? Voting is a private matter. Is that even legal?

It's a bit aggravating, actually. As best I can tell Biden escapes all censure for his actions. And yet we faithful have been told by some priests that voting for Biden or someone like him requires a trip to Confession afterward. It seems a bit hypocritical. I go with it, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit wrongheaded to take no action against Biden but insist I go to Confession if I vote for him.

 

[benedictaoo]

If we vote for a political person because we suporrt pro death, suporrting abortion, we are very much in sin and need to confess. If we vote for someone because we are in suporrt of gay marriage we are in sin and should repent and confess.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And to point out, anytime they take Communion they may be taking it in judgement of their sins. These are NOT good Catholics and their examples are down right scandalous.

QWERTY, you have been given some bad advice. You have been given some good advice and some okay advice but here's the bottom line, if you think you can enter the Catholic Church while disagreeing with certain moral doctrines and being for immorals things the Church teaches us are against God's laws, just know that when we receive Holy Communion and say, Amen, what we are professing is that we do accecpt and are in union with all that mother Church purposes for our belief in union with the pope, in union with one another. I really do not think that many Catholics truly under what this unity is about. Its about unity in belief.

Anyway, I don't care what others are telling you, you might not understand, you might struggle but it must all be in the direction of coming to accept. You cannot just opt to disagree. You are displaying rejection based on what you want to believe and what you want. This is open dissent and that is never allowed and I don't care what others say, I'm giving it to you straight. If you want to be given licsense to form your own moral code then Catholicism is not for you. We are to have the mind of the Church which is the mind of Christ. In that truth lies true freedom.

Agree to a point. Have taught teenagers getting ready for Confirmation and witnessing more than a couple of vigils the pledge they are asked to take says nothing of assenting to every detail of the Catechism. The Bishops repeatedly express to them that it is NOT necessary that are 100% certain they either can say Amen to every single truth taught or that they even know every truth taught (and I find many Catholics don't know what they don't know). So suggesting that saying "Amen" at Communion means 100% assent to everything is a stretch I think at best. The Rite is itself only asks them to say "Amen" to a few specific things (renounce Satan for example).

The instruction I have witnessed Bishops, Priests and Catechist giving people being accepted into the Church is that they are expressing a mature adult acceptance of responsibility for their own faith and ultimately one's destiny. In that respect and in order to properly make that expression, it would be sort of required to understand at least the fundamentals of our beliefs. And it is there I think Catholic parents first and the Church second can fail in helping those wanting to come in (whether teenager or adult) by not providing them with enough basic education on the fundamentals of Christian faith and what the Church teaches - or even where to find the later.

Having said that, obviously a public person professing to be Catholic or a person privately contemplating come into the Church as already mentioned in the thread, such a person could not hold or promote "pro-choice" ideas as that cannot in any sense be someone that has even a basic grasp on what the Church teaches in that regard. Most Parishes in my experience require a one on one with the leading Pastor, and it would be there that a person's intent and any doubts should be covered. So if a teenager or any Catechumen or any adult candidate (baptized) for Confirmation is expressing serious doubts about any particular belief (many Protestants considering have issues with our teachings on Mary for example) then that would be the time for a Priest to say that they might want to consider waiting or if I guess if the Priest felt the position strong enough he could strongly suggest that this is not the time yet for that person. I like what a Sister at my first Parish use to say to RCIA classes - something like "I would rather you be a good Baptist, Methodist, Anglican....whatever than a bad Catholic." I have seen some people take that class/program more than once and consider the step over many years or even taking it just to learn what Catholics believe.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Biden and others are still
catholic but they are not in line with Catholic teaching. As you study more you do come to understand Catholic teaching as time goes on.

The early Church fathers would not have considered today's modernist/progressives to be Catholic.

 

[benedictaoo]

The early Church fathers would not have considered today's modernist/progressives to be Catholic.

Lord, they'd consider Biden and Polosi to be apostates and reprobates.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Lord, they'd consider Biden and Polosi to be apostates and reprobates.

They definitely weren't P.C. in describing heretics and apostates.