No one is righteous vs. the righteousness of Christ

[ImaginaryDay]

So as not to derail a thread I'll post this here.

How do we compare:

No one has the righteousness of God except Jesus. Not one is righteous.

To this?:

"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;" (Rom. 3: 21-24, NASB).

Are we to always see ourselves in a constant state of unrighteousness, or does God declare us righteous through Christ?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Are we to always see ourselves in a constant state of unrighteousness ... ?

I purposely cut your post down to this one question.

I would say that yes, we ought to always see ourselves in a constant state of unrighteousness, because compared to the holiness of God, we are. And because we can always strive to be more like Christ, and we should always be on guard against the enemy.

I'm not saying we ought to despair - that would negate our faith in the grace of God. But when we think of ourselves, it's wise not to think too highly, and always be on guard and striving to be imitators of Christ.

 

[Isaacsname]

righteousness is a great topic

 

[jsimms615]

it is a comparison between being righteous in our own flesh verses righteousness that comes from Christ. I don't live in a state of being defeated. My victory has been won, but Christ won it for me. I didn't do it myself

 

[ImaginaryDay]

it is a comparison between being righteous in our own flesh verses righteousness that comes from Christ. I don't live in a state of being defeated. My victory has been won, but Christ won it for me. I didn't do it myself

Agreed. And I think we can make a distinction between our inability to attain righteousness on our own, yet still recognize the righteousness of Christ that is present in us. Without it, there is no justification - all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I don't mean this to sound like a position or argument for sinlessness, but rather a position against the view of a consistent state of sin and unforgiveness, even after receiving Christ's righteousness.

 

[Catherineanne]

Are we to always see ourselves in a constant state of unrighteousness, or does God declare us righteous through Christ?

Yes.

 

[Catherineanne]

Agreed. And I think we can make a distinction between our inability to attain righteousness on our own, yet still recognize the righteousness of Christ that is present in us. Without it, there is no justification - all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I don't mean this to sound like a position or argument for sinlessness, but rather a position against the view of a consistent state of sin and unforgiveness, even after receiving Christ's righteousness.

Pride is a very dangerous failing; it is the sin which caused Lucifer to fall from heaven, and it is his favourite trap for religious people. If we are to avoid hubris (spiritual pride) then we must retain a memory of our sins and unworthiness long after God has forgotten both. In eternity we will be free to see ourselves as the Lord sees us but until then we can't risk mistaking Christ's righteousness for our own.

The Lord is the sun and our righteousness is as the light of the moon; it is not generated from within us but rather it is all reflected from him. Without him we are nothing.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Pride is a very dangerous failing; it is the sin which caused Lucifer to fall from heaven, and it is his favourite trap for religious people. If we are to avoid hubris (spiritual pride) then we must retain a memory of our sins and unworthiness long after God has forgotten both. In eternity we will be free to see ourselves as the Lord sees us but until then we can't risk mistaking Christ's righteousness for our own.

The Lord is the sun and our righteousness is as the light of the moon; it is not generated from within us but rather it is all reflected from him. Without him we are nothing.

Somewhere there is a misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say. I'm not declaring my own righteousness, nor is it right in the sight of God. Retaining a memory of our sin is inevitable - we are human, and will remember our acts. Our conscience will bear witness to what we've done. But if we carry on in a maudlin display of self-disparaging pathos, what good is that in the sight of God and our fellow man? To "feel free to see ourselves as God sees us" is not an act that begins in eternity, but begins now. I'm free to do that. Otherwise, what good is the freedom we have in Christ? He died in vain if we are not truly free in Him.

 

[FireDragon76]

Romans has to do with being accepted into the covenant of Abraham by faith, rather than by works of the Torah. See the New Perspective on Paul for more information. It's not clear from Romans that we are given all the merits of Christ's obedience, but it is clear we are declared "not guilty" and forgiven.

This is a very complex topic because we are really touching on a subject of what we do after we are justified by faith, and that's a topic about what sort of virtues we want to have. The best thing to do is emulate a mature Christian who has the fruits of the Spirit. That's one reason I believe an individualistic approach to the Christian faith doesn't really work, because we usually learn virtue in a community where we can emulate other people.

It's also not true that sins we commit after we are justified don't matter, at least from what I am reading in the Lutheran tradition, there is an emphasis on sin warring with faith, and the importance of repentance as a continued activity (Philip Melancthon, Luther's disciple, said "The whole life of faith is repentance"). This is something that many Christian traditions also emphasize: the life of faith is a struggle. I just use the Lutheran tradition because sometimes the impression is that "freedom" in Protestantism is perceived in an antinomian fashion- now that Christ paid for our sins, we can live however we want.

In fact in the Eastern tradition they do indeed take a "maudlin" view of life at times, pointing to the beatitudes blessing on those who mourn. This is not to be confused with despair, but the joy that we should feel is distinct from the sensualism and hedonism of the natural man, which is really a kind of "eat, drink, and be merry", masking a deep seated despair in the shadow of Death.

 

[TheBarrd]

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[TheBarrd]

We have no reason to doubt that the Pharisee in the parable was, indeed, doing all the things he boasted of.
Nor should we doubt that the publican was, indeed, a sinner.
It was not the Pharisee's "righteousness" that got the Lord's attention,
rather it was the humility of the publican....

 

[com7fy8]

When the Bible says there is no one who is righteous, I understand this means no one is righteous who has not trusted in Jesus.

But when a sinner turns to God and trusts in Christ (Ephesians 1:12), first the person is "declared" righteous, by the fact that the person has joined Jesus and therefore shares in Jesus Christ's "track record", instead of being in Satan's kingdom > Acts 26:18. So, at first there is the "imputed" righteousness, simply meaning that by being with Jesus we have become right by joining with Jesus.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, we have not only joined a cause or a "gang". But it is like how if you join a Super Bowl Champion team: just by being accepted by the team, already you have the reputation of that team. However, now you will need to do some things to become a contributing member of the team while also becoming able to relate well with the members and coaches.

Like this, now that we have become joined to Jesus, not only are we in a group, but each of us is "one spirit with Him" in us. And Jesus in our hearts effects us, in our union spiritual with Him. He changes us to become righteous like He is righteous. This change of our character is not just an imputed declaration - - a change of status . . . but He in us transforms us to become like Him. We become righteous, meaning we become the right way . . . the way that God's love is right >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And, included in this process is how we need to actively seek our Father for His correction, as Hebrews 12:6-11 says. His correction cures our nature so we "become partakers of His holiness", and His correction produces "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us.

So, this is not what we do, ourselves, but God in us effects us with His grace almighty which transforms us to become like Him in His love . . . "in this world" (in 1 John 4:17).

So, we trust You, LORD our Father, to do all You mean by Your word > Isaiah 55:11 < all Your word guarantees You succeed at doing with Your children - - - how Your love in us has us becoming loving with one another and in reaching to any and all people who do not know You.

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

Jesus in us is "gentle and lowly in heart", He says in Matthew 11:28-30. So, "all lowliness and gentleness" means how Jesus in us makes us gentle and lowly in our loving. Jesus in us is the definition of righteousness, of how to be loving in the right way; and in us He shares this with us (Galatians 4:19).

Jesus on Calvary was "a sweet-smelling aroma" > and we are commanded to live the way Jesus makes us also sweetly pleasing to our Father >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, the righteousness of Jesus in us makes us also sweet-smelling . . . sweetly pleasing to our Father in "the fragrance of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:15). God smells how we really are, and Jesus in us makes us right, like this. So, we trust You, LORD, to do this with us, more and more, so You make Yourself at home in us and can enjoy Yourself in us while You are dealing with all the stuff that is going on in this evil world around us.

 

[TheBarrd]

When the Bible says there is no one who is righteous, I understand this means no one is righteous who has not trusted in Jesus.

But when a sinner turns to God and trusts in Christ (Ephesians 1:12), first the person is "declared" righteous, by the fact that the person has joined Jesus and therefore shares in Jesus Christ's "track record", instead of being in Satan's kingdom > Acts 26:18. So, at first there is the "imputed" righteousness, simply meaning that by being with Jesus we have become right by joining with Jesus.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, we have not only joined a cause or a "gang". But it is like how if you join a Super Bowl Champion team: just by being accepted by the team, already you have the reputation of that team. However, now you will need to do some things to become a contributing member of the team while also becoming able to relate well with the members and coaches.

Like this, now that we have become joined to Jesus, not only are we in a group, but each of us is "one spirit with Him" in us. And Jesus in our hearts effects us, in our union spiritual with Him. He changes us to become righteous like He is righteous. This change of our character is not just an imputed declaration - - a change of status . . . but He in us transforms us to become like Him. We become righteous, meaning we become the right way . . . the way that God's love is right >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And, included in this process is how we need to actively seek our Father for His correction, as Hebrews 12:6-11 says. His correction cures our nature so we "become partakers of His holiness", and His correction produces "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us.

So, this is not what we do, ourselves, but God in us effects us with His grace almighty which transforms us to become like Him in His love . . . "in this world" (in 1 John 4:17).

So, we trust You, LORD our Father, to do all You mean by Your word > Isaiah 55:11 < all Your word guarantees You succeed at doing with Your children - - - how Your love in us has us becoming loving with one another and in reaching to any and all people who do not know You.

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

Jesus in us is "gentle and lowly in heart", He says in Matthew 11:28-30. So, "all lowliness and gentleness" means how Jesus in us makes us gentle and lowly in our loving. Jesus in us is the definition of righteousness, of how to be loving in the right way; and in us He shares this with us (Galatians 4:19).

Jesus on Calvary was "a sweet-smelling aroma" > and we are commanded to live the way Jesus makes us also sweetly pleasing to our Father >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, the righteousness of Jesus in us makes us also sweet-smelling . . . sweetly pleasing to our Father in "the fragrance of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:15). God smells how we really are, and Jesus in us makes us right, like this. So, we trust You, LORD, to do this with us, more and more, so You make Yourself at home in us and can enjoy Yourself in us while You are dealing with all the stuff that is going on in this evil world around us.

I am completely fascinated by this post.
The only thing I would add is that the process you are talking about takes time.
Transforming filthy rags into clean white robes doesn't generally happen in a snap.
It is a process...it doesn't happen immediately.
And I believe that it is different with each individual. One person may seem to change overnight, while another may take years...even a lifetime. And with some, perhaps it may seem like he takes three steps forward...and then two steps back...but he's progressing all the same.

Think of the disciples with Jesus at Galilee after the resurrection...they've been out on the lake...Peter, excited when he saw his Lord, swam furiously to the shore to meet Him, and Jesus allowed him to affirm his love for Him three times...just as he had denied Him three times.
The rest of the men make it in with their great catch of fish to have breakfast with the Son of God...

And then Peter does what Peter glances over at John...

Now I don't know if it was friendly curiosity, or maybe a twinge of jealousy...but Peter opens his big mouth and asks Jesus:
"And what shall this man do?"


And we know what Jesus told him, don't we?
Basically Jesus told him to mind his own business, didn't He?
"If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? What I say to you I say to all....follow Me."

I should think that's clear enough.
For Peter....
And for me.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

We have no reason to doubt that the Pharisee in the parable was, indeed, doing all the things he boasted of.
Nor should we doubt that the publican was, indeed, a sinner.
It was not the Pharisee's "righteousness" that got the Lord's attention,
rather it was the humility of the publican....

I agree. But what identifies us as a member of the body of Christ? Our humility, or Christ in us? Christ works initially in the salvic act, as well as to keep us, so what room is there to boast of anything? But, also, what room is there to declare that the righteousness of Christ does not live in us? Both seem to be extremes on the same continuum.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Certainly we should be marked by growing into the likeness of Christ. If one has made progress, it shouldn't be surprising that he might seem holy to others who see him.

The only problem I see is if he sees himself as holy. Pride is the ugliest and most destructive sin.

I may have misunderstood, but it thought you were asking how we ought to see ourselves. That's why I answered as I did.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am completely fascinated by this post.
The only thing I would add is that the process you are talking about takes time.
Transforming filthy rags into clean white robes doesn't generally happen in a snap.
It is a process...it doesn't happen immediately.
And I believe that it is different with each individual. One person may seem to change overnight, while another may take years...even a lifetime.

I'm very sympathetic to the holiness/Wesleyan movement, but very often sanctification is reduced to meeting certain behavioral standards to be accepted. People become "fruit inspectors", instead of realizing everybody is different, every tree is different, they expect the fruit to be uniform in appearance.

 

[TheBarrd]

I agree. But what identifies us as a member of the body of Christ? Our humility, or Christ in us? Christ works initially in the salvic act, as well as to keep us, so what room is there to boast of anything? But, also, what room is there to declare that the righteousness of Christ does not live in us? Both seem to be extremes on the same continuum.

What identifies us as a member of the Body of Christ, you ask?
I will let Jesus answer you:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What is this love?

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1 Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Notice there, where it says that charity (we would say love) "vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up"?
That would be humility.
Love is humble.

 

[TheBarrd]

I'm very sympathetic to the holiness/Wesleyan movement, but very often sanctification is reduced to meeting certain behavioral standards to be accepted. People become "fruit inspectors", instead of realizing everybody is different, every tree is different, they expect the fruit to be uniform in appearance.

I did a "memo" on this long ago:
Memo:
We have too many people working in the Fruit Inspection Department. We are going to have to downsize this department. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
However, we have a very serious shortage of workers in the Fruit Production Department. You should be warned, the work will be very difficult, and you will have to deal with long hours, short or even no pay, and there is no vacation time. However, we are very proud of our Retirement Plan.
If you are interested, please get in touch with us right away.

Personnel Department
God & Son Inc.

 

[com7fy8]

The only thing I would add is that the process you are talking about takes time.

Have compassion for each other, while we may keep failing and getting in problems because of our sin stuff >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Jesus never gave up on any of His disciples.

So, we know our Groom Jesus and our High Priest Jesus is not going to give up on us, and He does not want us to give up on anyone, including ourselves

And have the standard of how to become in God's love; it seems a number of people keep their attention away from this, by making a big thing of some one or two sin problems, instead of seeking our Father for real correction as we have testified in Hebrews 12:6-11.

One person may seem to change overnight, while another may take years...even a lifetime

What shows can change very quickly. But the different clothes can have the same person underneath.

"be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:5)

I see that now we have more than one lady, on this earth, who "reminds me" of Abigail and of "Mary, who also sat at Jesus' feet and heard His word."

 

[TheBarrd]

Have compassion for each other, while we may keep failing and getting in problems because of our sin stuff >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Jesus never gave up on any of His disciples.

So, we know our Groom Jesus and our High Priest Jesus is not going to give up on us, and He does not want us to give up on anyone, including ourselves

And have the standard of how to become in God's love; it seems a number of people keep their attention away from this, by making a big thing of some one or two sin problems, instead of seeking our Father for real correction as we have testified in Hebrews 12:6-11.

What shows can change very quickly. But the different clothes can have the same person underneath.

"be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:5)

I see that now we have more than one lady, on this earth, who "reminds me" of Abigail and of "Mary, who also sat at Jesus' feet and heard His word."

Just to know that Jesus will not give up on us...that is everything.
And how I long to please Him!
Yet I know how often I stumble and fall, and how He has dealt with me...should I have less compassion, then, on others who have stumbled?
What a shame that would be to me! And what shame we bring to our Lord when we behave in such a way!
Yet...we are charged to be the salt of the earth...how do we preserve what is good?
We are to be the light of the world...we must shine out in the darkness...and if we do that, we can't help but expose the sin around us...can we?
Do we rightly name sin for what it is? Yes, I believe we have that responsibility.
Yet we must not cast stones...for we, ourselves, are not without sin.
Sometimes, I think we forget that.

What else is there for us, but to follow along after our Lord?
He has the Words of Life...but even more than that...He teaches us what it means to truly love.