Need to ask a question about AOGs, please

[songbird2020]

Hello, friends. I need your help with something. I hope you will understand I am not trying to give anyone a hard time or cause any trouble. I trully just need a better understanding of your church's tenents of faith.

Let me start out by saying I grew up in a small Evangelical church in a small town in the middle of nowhere. There were any number of prejudices in that setting, as there was very little diversity in the area, and very few well-travelled or well-educated folk. I realize that most of these biases were based on misinformation and/or lack of understanding. I have spent most of my adult life doing my best to overcome the prejudices I grew up learning.

One of them has recently slapped me upside the head. You see, as a child I was given the impression that the Pentecostal churches were somehow "bad" because they "speak in tongues". "They are good people", I would hear, "but they speak in tongues". As if that were some sort of evil thing.

I recently became associated with a wonderful church, which at first I thought was non-denominational. I read on their website later that they are in fact AOG. I LOVE this church and feel drawn to leave my current church and attend the AOG. But I find myself conflicted by this idea from my childhood that AOG is somehow wrong.

Someone PLEASE explain to me, what does this mean to YOU??? I want to understand the REALITY of this statement, as opposed to the nonsense I grew up hearing.

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]8. The Evidence of Baptism in the Holy Ghost[/FONT]

• [FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The baptism of the believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Acts 2:4[/FONT]

I thank you in advance for your replies. Again, I trust I've caused no hurt feelings, as I honestly just want to learn and grow in my understanding.

Blessings to you,
Donna

 

[Habbukuk]

Hi Donna

The first thing I would like to do is honour you for seeking out the truth. To often people take what they are told by a pastor or minister as absolute gospel without actually researching themselves. The fact that you are asking questions shows that you have a yearning to understand what God has said, rather than just taking what man has told you for granted.

There is alot of hot debate as to tongues in the Christian community, and I would like to explain it as best I can. I would like to let you know that I am currently studying to become a pastor and that I have an AOG (or ACC in Australia where I am) background.

There are two types of tongues. The first is the tongues that are speaking in another language, as witnessed in Acts 2:3-11 :

"3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

5 At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem. 6 When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers. 7 They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee, 8 and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages! 9 Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, 10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!”

The other type of tongues is spiritual. Essentially it is a language that only God will understand. I liken it to when a baby is hungry and cries. The baby isn't speaking in English saying that they are hungry, but the parent knows from the sound they are making that they are hungry and to feed them. This kind of tongues is spoken about in 1Corinthians 14 :

"1 Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. 2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 3 But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. 4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

5 I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.
6 Dear brothers and sisters, if I should come to you speaking in an unknown language, how would that help you? But if I bring you a revelation or some special knowledge or prophecy or teaching, that will be helpful. 7 Even lifeless instruments like the flute or the harp must play the notes clearly, or no one will recognize the melody. 8 And if the bugler doesn’t sound a clear call, how will the soldiers know they are being called to battle?
9 It’s the same for you. If you speak to people in words they don’t understand, how will they know what you are saying? You might as well be talking into empty space.
10 There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. 11 But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. 12 And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. 13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying."

As you can see here, Paul does claim that this is a spiritual gift, and says that he wishes all would speak in tongues. But as he clearly points out, tongues is only one gifting and not the most important one.

Tongues isn't actually that big a part of church life within the AOG. It is seen as a point of contention by some other churches, which probably gives it a seemingly more important role than it has. That being said, the pentacostal movement began when a meeting of believers had an experience similar to Acts 2 (which is where the name Pentacostal comes from).

The best advice that I could hope to give you as you journey is to pray to God and ask Him. If you are happy at the new church and really enjoying it, it's probably because God has put you there. But, at the end of the day, whether you go to an AOG church or any other kind of church, I want to encourage you not to only listen to the Pastors or the people in the church. Read the Bible and the passages regarding certain things, research it for yourself and see what you can find. Talk to God and see what he puts on your heart.

I hope this helps. I know it's a fairly generalised reply, but if there are any specific questions you have, or any advice I can offer, please feel free to ask, either here or by private message.

God Bless

Chris

 

[stormdancer0]

I have a paper I wrote on this subject, while trying to prove a Pentecostal minister wrong. I decided to be fair and study both views, and ended up proving, in my mind, that it was in fact valid. When I prayed and asked for this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," I found out that you should never ask God for anything you're not sure you want!! I had never been around anyone who spoke in tongues, and it kind of startled me. I actually had to go back to that minister and say, "Okay, now explain this!!" It was a wonderful experience - the first of many - and I'm glad I was alone, in my own home, when it happened.

I thought tongues was a huge part of AOG. In the Church of God, it is important. I go to a very calm(relatively speaking) church. For a year or two, there was little if any speaking in tongues. But lately, it's like there's been an outpouring over all of us.

Anyway, let me know if you want to read the paper.

 

[pimorton]

As to the tenet of faith you questioned, I think there is some debate within AOG circles about exactly what it means. One group thinks it means you have to speak in tongues to prove you have the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Another group, myself included, thinks a person can be baptized in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues; it is a spiritual occurance that is often, but not always, manifest by speaking in tongues or other physical displays. That being said, it is witnessed - proven - in the physical realm by "the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues." Paul said so much in 1 Cor. 14:22: "Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers." Here unbelievers could also include those who want evidence of that inner work. We see in the book of Acts that the apostles used the sign of speaking in tongues as proof of the conversion of Cornelius and his household - another inward work.

 

[songbird2020]

Thank you for your replies. I am embarrassed that I have been a Christian for so long, and have read through the Bible many times, and have somehow managed to avoid this topic. I have undertaken a deep dive key word Bible study on the issue and, keeping my heart and mind open, pray for enlightenment. I do appreciate your comments. Knowing your points of view is helpful. I have also found a document online that I will read--probably a few times: a paper on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit published on AOG website. I am looking forward to learning all that God has for me in this journey.
Blessings to you all...
Donna

 

[scrutor7]

Donna,

I hope all of the replies you've received have been helpful; yet I have not seen the most important reason for the baptism in the Holy Spirit mentioned. Empowerment for service. If you recall in Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gave the disciples the "great commission" yet our Lord knew that in their own strength they could not fulfill this commandment so in Acts 1:4-5 He told them "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." He then goes on further to explain in verse 8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The disciples waited for the Lords promise and then " Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them". Acts 2:3-4. Then Peter, the man who out of fear had denied the Lord 3 times suddenly stands up and begins to preach one of the greatest sermons ever heard, in boldly proclaiming the Lordship of Christ and the only way of salvation resulting in 3000 conversions that day. That's what I call POWER!

The Christian church began that day as a result of the power endued by the baptism in the Holy Spirit.We can undertake making disciples of all nations with some degree of success without the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but when we do, we are undertaking a supernatural task in the natural.

It is God's will -- it is His commandment -- that we be baptized, or filled with the Holy Spirit: "Be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18). The knowledge and reality of the empowering Spirit enables us to reproduce the works of Jesus.

Blessings
Fred

 

[songbird2020]

Okay so here's the thing. I've been a Christian for more than 30 years. Was water baptized twelve years ago, and soon after that I prayed for and received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which we Nazarene's refer to as "sanctification". It is that second work of the Spirit. It was once explained to me this way: Being saved, born again, justified, is like you've let Jesus get into your car. Being sanctified, filled with the Spirit, is like allowing Jesus to drive the car. It is more than that initial invitation to Christ to come into your life. It is turning your entire life over to the direction of the Holy Spirit.
My life instantly changed when I was sanctified. I found myself in ministy far outside what previously had been my comfort zone. I have been able to accomplish things for the Kingdom that I never could have done in my own power. I've had wonderful spiritual experiences since that day, including the marvelous gift of a vision of a future event.
But no speaking in tongues. Not at the moment of the infilling, not ever.
So I guess my real question is, does the AOG church put too much emphasis on tongues, or am I not really where I think I am spiritually? I know that there is a gift of tongues, I don't doubt that some speak in tongues. But the statement of tenent #8 that it is required evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit confounds me. Everything else stated in the AOG articles of faith I am in complete and passionate agreement with. But my experience contradicts this one.
Well obviously I must study on my own before I make a decision about changing churches. I didn't feel well yesterday and therefore didn't get very far in my study. But I've got to figure out what God wants from me on this.
Thank you all again for your kind responses, and for allowing me to ramble on.

 

[BereanTodd]

songbird 2020, just to offer you a little encouragement. I too come/came from a baptist/bible church background (actually I grew up an atheist, but my saved life has been in the baptist/bible churches). Just earlier this year God has moved us to join an AoG church.

Now I was never a cessasionist myself, but I certainly come from a background (and still attend a seminary) that is. As far as your concerns about your own tongues or lack thereof, I would encourage you to speak to the pastor about your concerns on this.

The AoG does not make this a salvific issue, but individual churches have a real range of how they feel about them. For instance the church I go to is pastored by one of the highest ranking members in the AoG. He is very well known within the denomination and travels and speaks all over. I have not yet spoken in tongues, and he knows this. And yet he is going to be working me into helping him shoulder some of the pastoral duties in this church (I am a former pastor and seminary student) - despite the fact that I do not speak in tongues.

On the flip side there are other churches who are much more dogmatic and strict on that issue.

As to your question "does the AoG put too much emphasis on tongues"? At this point I do think that saying "speaking in tongues is THE sign of being baptised in the Spirit" is going a little too far. However, I am also not saying they are wrong. I am still studying and praying about this issue myself.

But again, that has not held me back from this incredible church I am in and becoming more and more a part of. If you want to talk more one-on-one with someone who has very recently been where you are, feel free to pm or email me any time.

Keep praying and seeking and God will lead you where He wants you to be.

BT

 

[scrutor7]

But no speaking in tongues. Not at the moment of the infilling, not ever.
So I guess my real question is, does the AOG church put too much emphasis on tongues, or am I not really where I think I am spiritually? I know that there is a gift of tongues, I don't doubt that some speak in tongues. But the statement of tenent #8 that it is required evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit confounds me. Everything else stated in the AOG articles of faith I am in complete and passionate agreement with. But my experience contradicts this one.

Donna,

I agree with what Todd has said. I will also add that you should NOT get hung up on the tongues issue. I was born again and attending an AOG church for 7 years before I spoke in tongues and it did not affect my knowledge of what my eternal destiny was.

You need to understand a bit of the history of the AOG and why there are varying emphases on tongues in different congregations. The AOG started off as a loose conglomerate of believers with disparate beliefs yet all in one accord with regard to the gifts of the Spirit. In 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas preacher Eudorus N. Bell. called for a meeting. As a result of the spreading revival and the formation of many Pentecostal congregations, Bell recognized the need for an organized assembly. Three hundred Pentecostal ministers and laymen gathered to discuss the growing need for doctrinal unity and other common goals. As a result, the General Council of the Assemblies of God was formed, uniting the assemblies in ministry and legal identity, yet preserving each congregation as a self-governing and self-supporting entity. This structural model remains intact today.

This is why the AOG considers itself a fellowship not a denomination, This structure allows for a modicum of autonomy with a unifying belief system. It is in the application and emphasis on the beliefs that congregations vary. Some emphasize tongues and the other gifts while others do not.

Again, follow what the Lord is leading you to do and not a specific gift or doctrine. I speak in tongues almost daily yet I agree wholeheartedly with what Paul said:
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18,19)

Blessings
Fred

 

[songbird2020]

Thank you all so much for your imput. It really does help me. I do plan to have that conversation with the pastor of the AOG church. I feel like I should fulfill my current responsibilities at the Nazarene church of which I have been a member for the past 12 years, but continue to feel drawn to the AOG as well. I will probably attend both alternately until the end of the year when I will be free of my responsibilities at the former. I will continue to study what the Bible says about tongues so that at least I can have an intelligent converstion with the pastor when I do meet with him.

You have all been so kind - much like the wonderful people at what will eventually be my new church! Thanks again for your input and your welcoming demeanor.

Blessings,
Donna

 

[johnflinst]

Like I posted in the other thread, read 1 Corinthians 12-14. I think that has the best descriptions of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Bible.

I'll also share my personal experiences. I grew up in an AoG church. Tongues were always encouraged. When I was really young, I remember we even had a speaker come to our church once to help those who hadn't received this gift yet.

Like someone posted above, there really is a range of beliefs within the AoG, but from what I have heard, the official view is that, unless you've spoken in tongues, you haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit yet. I recently heard there was a huge petition of a large group of churches, pastors, and individuals within the AoG that challenged this belief. I think a large majority of people within the AoG believe this way, that you can be filled with the Spirit w/out speaking in tongues.

Anyway, that is what I know of it. I have spoken in tongues since I was young. I usually do it when I am praying to myself, or sometimes when singing during worship. If anyone speaks in tongues out loud during a service, it is expected that there will be an interpretation so that everyone else can understand, otherwise it's kind of pointless to interrupt the service with it.


Oh yea, wanted to share one other experience. I went on a missions trip to Guatemala once. There was a guy from England that came with us who had never spoken in tongues. One night we had a personal service and we prayed for him, but nothing happened. A little later I felt like we should pray for him again, this time still nothing but someone had a vision about him, which God gave me the interpretation for. We finished praying and ended the service a little later. The next morning he shared with us that in the middle of the night he woke up and started speaking in tongues and was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was amazed because he was just sleeping and the next thing he knew he was praying in tongues. Anyway, just thought I'd share that, God works in ways we don't always expect : )