NC blocks transsexuals from using the "other sex's" bathroom

[OGM]

The problem is that NC's law would put an FTM transgender guy who has facial hair, a flat chest, and has possibly had bottom surgery, in the same change room as your daughter. Now that the law is passed, instead of trans people deciding to go into the changing room where they can look least out-of-place (which honestly is how most trans people decide) trans people have to follow the government's decision. Even if it results in lots of awkwardness.

It is obvious the creators of this law were totally clueless and did not think it though.

 

[WolfGate]

The problem is that NC's law would put an FTM transgender guy who has facial hair, a flat chest, and has possibly had bottom surgery, in the same change room as your daughter. Now that the law is passed, instead of trans people deciding to go into the changing room where they can look least out-of-place (which honestly is how most trans people decide) trans people have to follow the government's decision. Even if it results in lots of awkwardness.

There's a good chance that any MTF trans girls who would use the same change room as your daughter are interested in guys, so they won't have any reason to stare. Even then, there are probably lesbians in that change room already. If the lesbians in the change room haven't caused trouble, a transgender girl in the same change room probably wouldn't either.

I do understand that the much smaller subset of transgender people who are in the process of undergoing surgery is awkward case, to use your word. No open space changing option is going to be without that - and there is no easy solution in that case. This whole issue has lot of nuances, despite the absolutes it has generated in political rhetoric on both sides. Still, the Charlotte ordinance would have required allowing the full set of people, including someone who had done nothing to begin sex reassignment but felt that way, to use the locker room. That results in a lot of awkwardness as well and in my opinion infringes on the rights of the majority.

Regarding lesbians, I found your use of the word "trouble" to be a bit out of place. Did you mean that there would trouble in the locker room? That hasn't been part of my argument either way. Did you mean if lesbians in the locker room don't bother the kids then someone of the opposite biological sex shouldn't either? That misses the reality that it does.

 

[WolfGate]

It is obvious the creators of this law were totally clueless and did not think it though.

Agree -and I'd say that about both the Charlotte City Council and the NC Legislature.

 

[JeffofGallifrey]

.

 

[OGM]

Agree -and I'd say that about both the Charlotte City Council and the NC Legislature.

I wonder how many jobs it will cost the State? How much revenue will be lost? This law was soooo unneccesisary. It is not like it addresses an existing problem.

 

[JeffofGallifrey]

I do understand that the much smaller subset of transgender people who are in the process of undergoing surgery is awkward case, to use your word. No open space changing option is going to be without that - and there is no easy solution in that case. This whole issue has lot of nuances, despite the absolutes it has generated in political rhetoric on both sides. Still, the Charlotte ordinance would have required allowing the full set of people, including someone who had done nothing to begin sex reassignment but felt that way, to use the locker room. That results in a lot of awkwardness as well and in my opinion infringes on the rights of the majority.

I understand that it would be awkward to have someone who looks like a guy and is wearing men's clothes use a ladies room because he identifies as female. But... that is highly unlikely. Nearly all transgender people have the common sense to use the restroom of the gender they're dressed as. I can't imagine using the men's room dressed as a woman, or using the ladies room dressed as a man. Usually someone will both come out and try hard to look like the gender they identify as, before using that gender's restrooms. So even without the law, your be unlikely to find a bearded man in men's clothing saying he identifies as a woman in the ladies room.

Regarding lesbians, I found your use of the word "trouble" to be a bit out of place. Did you mean that there would trouble in the locker room? That hasn't been part of my argument either way. Did you mean if lesbians in the locker room don't bother the kids then someone of the opposite biological sex shouldn't either? That misses the reality that it does.

I think I misunderstood you. I originally thought you were saying that girls are unsafe in the same changing room as trans women, and I was arguing that they're safe.

As I listen to you more, it sounds like you're worried that the girls in the locker room will see a trans woman's genitals and freak out or be traumatized. I suspect that this is unlikely to be an issue, because most trans people are VERY self conscious about their private parts and would try hard to keep them out of sight.
Having genitals one doesn't like is at least ten times as embarrassing as having scars or stretch marks.

Also, lots of pre-op transgender women wear underwear that compress certain areas, and most FTM transgender men who haven't had too surgery wear binders to compress their chests. Most trans people would wear those in the water. So, if a FTM trans guy were changing in the men's room, nobody would see his chest because he would likely leave the binder on the whole time.

 

[WolfGate]

I understand that it would be awkward to have someone who looks like a guy and is wearing men's clothes use a ladies room because he identifies as female. But... that is highly unlikely. Nearly all transgender people have the common sense to use the restroom of the gender they're dressed as. I can't imagine using the men's room dressed as a woman, or using the ladies room dressed as a man. Usually someone will both come out and try hard to look like the gender they identify as, before using that gender's restrooms. So even without the law, your be unlikely to find a bearded man in men's clothing saying he identifies as a woman in the ladies room.

Go back to my earlier post. I've said bathrooms with stalls, dividers etc. are not my issue and are something I think can be resolved. Your response above goes back to that and away from the real, not hypothetical situation Charlotte had set up with their ordinance.

I think I misunderstood you. I originally thought you were saying that girls are unsafe in the same changing room as trans women, and I was arguing that they're safe.

As I listen to you more, it sounds like you're worried that the girls in the locker room will see a trans woman's genitals and freak out or be traumatized. I suspect that this is unlikely to be an issue, because most trans people are VERY self conscious about their private parts and would try hard to keep them out of sight.
Having genitals one doesn't like is at least ten times as embarrassing as having scars or stretch marks.

Also, lots of pre-op transgender women wear underwear that compress certain areas, and most FTM transgender men who haven't had too surgery wear binders to compress their chests. Most trans people would wear those in the water. So, if a FTM trans guy were changing in the men's room, nobody would see his chest because he would likely leave the binder on the whole time.

Yes, you have misunderstood me on the safety part. The risk to safety I see is not from transgender people. The risk I see would mainly be from a voyeur who decided to take advantage of the way the Charlotte ordinance was written.

I understand what you say about most transgenders would want to keep their private parts hidden. In the specific case I am talking about they can do that very easily by using the "family" changing area. "Most", which you used repeatedly (and I think is correct) however, does not mean all.

 

[JeffofGallifrey]

Yeah. I used "most" because in my opinion, "all" is the case, but I can't speak for absolutely everyone.

I understand that concern, but I think it's highly unlikely that a cisgender guy would dress up in women's clothes just to get in the women's restroom. What if the guy ran into someone he knew who then thought he was trans? Or someone who knew him well enough to realize what he was doing and got angry? I realize that people are stupid, but I can't see anyone being dumb enough to do that.

 

[revanneosl]

Yeah. I used "most" because in my opinion, "all" is the case, but I can't speak for absolutely everyone.

I understand that concern, but I think it's highly unlikely that a cisgender guy would dress up in women's clothes just to get in the women's restroom. What if the guy ran into someone he knew who then thought he was trans? Or someone who knew him well enough to realize what he was doing and got angry? I realize that people are stupid, but I can't see anyone being dumb enough to do that.

Yes. And we certainly shouldn't change the laws in ways that will inconvenience trans people just because straight cis guys might possibly act in pervy ways.

 

[Saleena]

So how do you decide? Is someone going to stand at the entrance to each bathroom and check some kind of documentation to ensure that they had surgery or several years of identifying as the opposite sex?

Let's go even further. There are some who claim they are animal spirits trapped in a human body. If a woman identifies as a cat and demands that litter boxes be placed in pubic restrooms so she can feel more like a cat, should that be allowed too? Where do you draw the line?

No one has thought this through. It's just another emotional, knee-jerk reaction that doesn't solve anything and creates more havoc. There's simply no way to prove who identifies as who at any given restroom.

That argument is stupid because you cannot be born as a separate species. You can however be born as male or female or in between.



Everyone is all up in arms over this, yet there isn't one case of a transsexual person going into the bathroom to rape a person. go ahead, look it up. I'll wait. Oh you wanna use that very obviously a rwnj who went into the female bathroom to make a point a couple month's ago?

However, I can pull up scores and scores of links of politicians getting caught doing stuff they aren't supposed to in the bathrooms, and how signs aren't going to stop rape. If you honestly think these laws are going to stop anything, or are a solution to a non existent problem you are probably the idiot base these people are trying to rile up for the primaries.

Furthermore, I bring up title 9 because I can pull up cases where CIS GENDERED people are harmed by these laws when they don't conform to some gender stereotypical norm expected by the brainless masses. It's about these republican's losing the "moral war" and taking it out on the only people left who it's acceptable to take it out on. Republicans and the religious right are a dying breed. Church attendance and the desperation of these people pushing these bills proves this.

So all it comes down to is people trying hurt more people, the small government party wants to control the bathrooms. That's not ironic at all is it :O

 

[Saleena]

Let's not forget how these laws make it so children will be forced UNACCOMPANIED into their biological bathroom because of these bills.

These bills are stupid, the people pushing them are stupid, the people supporting them are stupid. It's just stupid.

 

[Sketcher]

I say let the ladies decide on who uses the ladies' room. There's at least one rape victim who is uncomfortable with it.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/23/a-rape-survivor-speaks-out-about-transgender-bathrooms/

 

[Thunder Peel]

Everyone is all up in arms over this, yet there isn't one case of a transsexual person going into the bathroom to rape a person. go ahead, look it up. I'll wait. Oh you wanna use that very obviously a rwnj who went into the female bathroom to make a point a couple month's ago?

Sketcher just posted one, as well as cases like this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/s...laiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

But please don't let that stop you from rambling on about how stupid you think this law and its supporters are.

 

[JeffofGallifrey]

So, @Sketcher and @Thunder Peel, you've successfully made the point that people are scared about this. But that DOESN'T mean they should be scared. Just because someone is scared doesn't mean there s a threat.

 

[rjs330]

I have a question. What is causing all this? What's happened? If transgender people are,so secretive about themselves and parts how is any one to,know? How do transgenders get beat up and assaulted if no one knows they are transgenders? This law is a reaction to what? Why do transgenders want policies that allow them,to,use the bathrooms of their identity when no one knows they,are trans? Who's keeping them out of no one knows? Something happened where some one saw a trans person showing their genitals in some fashion that upset someone. Either that or they are telling people they are trans and then using the bathroom of their choice. I want to know what started all this.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Siggy]

But Siggy that's not the solution haven't you been paying attention? Transgenders do not,want to feel segregated. They want to be part o f the sex they feel they are. If they feel like a,male they want to use the male bathroom not be segregated out.

So when you are trying to solve problems do you select the course of action that has a high chance of success or do you select the one that has very little chance of success???

 

[Uncle Siggy]

So, @Sketcher and @Thunder Peel, you've successfully made the point that people are scared about this. But that DOESN'T mean they should be scared. Just because someone is scared doesn't mean there s a threat.

Scared no, disgusted yes...

 

[Thunder Peel]

So, @Sketcher and @Thunder Peel, you've successfully made the point that people are scared about this. But that DOESN'T mean they should be scared. Just because someone is scared doesn't mean there s a threat.

And just because we can do something doesn't mean we shouldn't. It's insane that people think a man should be able to use a womens' restroom. You're naive if you think people won't abuse this and try to stretch it even further.

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


Due to some flaming, the thread has undergone a clean up.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[JeffofGallifrey]

I have a question. What is causing all this? What's happened? If transgender people are,so secretive about themselves and parts how is any one to,know? How do transgenders get beat up and assaulted if no one knows they are transgenders? This law is a reaction to what? Why do transgenders want policies that allow them,to,use the bathrooms of their identity when no one knows they,are trans? Who's keeping them out of no one knows? Something happened where some one saw a trans person showing their genitals in some fashion that upset someone. Either that or they are telling people they are trans and then using the bathroom of their choice. I want to know what started all this.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Ok... Transgender people getting assaulted in restrooms happens when trans people have to use the bathroom for their birth sex. That's what happens when an MTF transgender women is forced to use the men's room. In that scenario, everyone in the men's room can tell that the transgender woman is trans.

There are ways to figure out that someone is transgender without seeing their genitals. Usually when someone sees a transgender person in a public restroom and gets scared, they figured out that the person is transgender because of their voice or their height or their facial features.

Scared no, disgusted yes...

So your problem is that transgender people are "disgusting" to you? Dude, if something is disgusting to you, stop thinking about it. Also, you can't tell someone else how to live their lives because you find their body "disgusting."

And just because we can do something doesn't mean we shouldn't. It's insane that people think a man should be able to use a womens' restroom. You're naive if you think people won't abuse this and try to stretch it even further.

And if people try to abuse this, they will get in trouble for acting creepy in bathrooms. Using the restroom that fits your gender identity shouldn't be a crime, but acting creepy in bathrooms should be.