National Secular Society threatens legal action over parking privilege for Christians

[Celtic D]

You refer to Creationism as "part of the foundational mythologies of the Judeo Christian faith".... are you saying that Creationism is a myth?

It wasn't me who said that, however yes I agree with Catherineanne, science is for science classes, faith is for faith/RE classes. I personsonally don't think the world was formed literally as Genesis states!

 

[ianb321red]

Celtic D - If you don't take the Genesis account literally, then how was the world formed?

 

[Celtic D]

The world evolved to what it is now!

 

[ianb321red]

What did it evolve from - and what is the basis of your belief?

 

[Celtic D]

I have no interest in debating the off topic tangent of creation vs (theistic) evolution - I am sure you are well aware of the arguments for both sides, if not Google is your friend!

 

[ianb321red]

No I don't want to debate evolution either...
What I do want to know is what the basis of your beliefs is???

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Not from the UK but I think there is one way to prove discrimination. If it really is for anyone who goes into the church to validate it, why not have a clearly not christian bumpersticker on the car like the evolution sticker or something. Validate it, if and when you are ticketed, boosh discrimination.

 

[Celtic D]

No I don't want to debate evolution either...
What I do want to know is what the basis of your beliefs is???

The clue might be in the label! - Christian:follower of Christ

But what I believe is again OT to the OP and I won't be discussing it further

 

[StormHawk]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Some preachers even say that shopping is an act of worship!
- why discriminate against that religion?![/FONT]

 

[ianb321red]

Celtic D - that doesn't explain anything to me!
What I'm trying to establish is what you believe in not what you label yourself as. So there is no clue whatsoever in any label you give yourself...

I'm trying to establish whether the bible is the basis of your belief or not?

 

[Celtic D]

As I have already said, I am a Christian and a follower of Christ, that is all you need to know about me. This thread is not about what I believe and for the last time I have no desire to discuss the finer points of my faith in this thread!

 

[ianb321red]

ok - no problems. Thanks for all your comments!

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne - Sorry, but you made statement “there is no conflict” which is an absolute statement. You didn’t say originally that you personally don’t regard Humanists as opponents. Therefore, when I say it is naïve I’m referring to the belief that no conflict exists – which is clearly false. I wasn’t saying that you were naïve in your own opinion…

Nice try, but look again at the wording of the question I was answering. It asked, 'where do your loyalties lie.'

In answer to that, my response is, 'there is no conflict.' If you want the expanded version, this reads as, in relation to my own personal loyalties, there is no conflict between Christianity and humanism. The two go together very happily.

Better luck next time.

You refer to Creationism as "part of the foundational mythologies of the Judeo Christian faith".... are you saying that Creationism is a myth?

No. Creationism is the belief that one of the two creation stories in the Bible is literally true, and that the other creation story in the Bible is irrelevent.

Nothing mythical about that, sadly.

The two creation stories, together with much else in the OT, are indeed mythological rather than literal. This does not mean that they do not contain truth, but I suspect it is not the kind of truth that literalists can recognise. Perhaps if I compared them with the parables of the NT it might be easier to understand. Parables tell a story in order to convey a message, but we do not have to believe that the parable actually happened in order to learn from that message. There may or may not have been an actual Good Samaritan. There may or may not have been a man who built ever bigger barns and then died. There may or may not have been a woman who lost a gold coin and then spent ages looking for it, or a man who found a pearl and sold all he had to buy it. The truth of these stories is there, regardless of the fact that they are stories.

It is the same with mythology. We can learn from it, regardless of the fact that the events in the story never actually happened. To admit that they did not happen does not take away from the meaning, or the kind of truth they contain. It just means it is a different kind of truth.

I never said Creationism was science - but what are your views on evolution being taught in science lessons then?

I have no problem with any science being taught in science lessons. Evolution falls within science, in a way that Creationism never has and never will.

Anyone who does not accept this frankly does not understand what science is, which suggests that whatever education system they went through leaves something to be desired.

And you last point – I’m talking about a threat from evangelistic point of view so you need to think outside of your own immediate faith. If it doesn’t affect your faith then good for you! But what about other people who have not yet heard the gospel message in this country?

Speaking for the UK, I suspect there are precious few who are not aware of the gospel, given that this is a Christian country, and that worship in assemblies, and the content of RE lessons in state schools in this country has to have a predominantly Christian message. I am aware that in the US this is not the case, but we benefit from having an established Church in the UK.

 

[welshman]

This thread certainly is interesting lol...

I would definitely argue (or maybe the better word on here lol...is disagree) with you over the fact that there is no "conflict" between Christianity and humanism. On the humanism.org.uk website it states of "humanism":

" "Humanist"is used today to mean those who seek to live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. A humanist may embrace all or most of the other approaches introduced here, and in addition humanists believe that moral values follow on from human nature and experience in some way. Humanists base their moral principles on reason (which leads them to reject the idea of any supernatural agency), on shared human values and respect for others. They believe that people should work together to improve the quality of life for all and make it more equitable. Humanism is a full philosophy, "life stance" or worldview, rather than being about one aspect of religion, knowledge, or politics."

Humanism places us as God instead of the creator. Full stop.

As for evolution...it depends what you mean when you say "evolution". What is commonly used by this word (the world came about through "nothing" in the form of the "big bang") is not science. It is only a theory. One which can never be proven by science because it was a one time event. For it to be proven, it has to be demonstratable and you can't do it. Neither can creationists do this either. You interpret the available "evidence" by your world view.

 

[Catherineanne]

This thread certainly is interesting lol...

I would definitely argue (or maybe the better word on here lol...is disagree) with you over the fact that there is no "conflict" between Christianity and humanism. On the humanism.org.uk website it states of "humanism":

Again you have constructed a straw man. I did not say there is no conflict between the two, on some levels. I said that there is no conflict as far as I am concerned, because I am not personally threatened in any way by anything that humanists have to say, and neither is my faith.

Given that I am not personally threatened, I feel no need to over defend. Humanists follow their conscience, and I follow mine; there is no problem with any of that.

" "Humanist"is used today to mean those who seek to live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. A humanist may embrace all or most of the other approaches introduced here, and in addition humanists believe that moral values follow on from human nature and experience in some way. Humanists base their moral principles on reason (which leads them to reject the idea of any supernatural agency), on shared human values and respect for others. They believe that people should work together to improve the quality of life for all and make it more equitable. Humanism is a full philosophy, "life stance" or worldview, rather than being about one aspect of religion, knowledge, or politics."

Humanism places us as God instead of the creator. Full stop.

Again, I have no problem with that. For those who are unable to accept the concept of God, following the concept of the inherent value of mankind is a more than acceptable alternative, and I have no problem with it.

God does not give everyone the Grace to find him at the same time and in the same way, but he does say, very clearly, that what we do for one another we do for him. Therefore, whether humanists realise it or not, very often (although perhaps not always) what they do is to the glory of God.

As for evolution...it depends what you mean when you say "evolution". What is commonly used by this word (the world came about through "nothing" in the form of the "big bang") is not science. It is only a theory. One which can never be proven by science because it was a one time event. For it to be proven, it has to be demonstratable and you can't do it. Neither can creationists do this either. You interpret the available "evidence" by your world view.

The Big Bang is not the same as evolution. And a theory in scientific terms is not what you present it to be. Scientific theory can indeed be fact, while still remaining theory.

Once again, a rather basic level of education appears to be the issue here.

 

[welshman]

I have not constructed anything at all. How on earth can Christianity (based on the belief there is a God) and humanism (based on the belief there is no God and man is therefore free to decide what is right and wrong) "happily" go together?

I also do not feel threatened at all (something which you seem to try and imply) by humanism. Everyone is entitled to their own belief. What does worry me greatly is that humanism is leading many to hell. They teach that man makes the rules and not God. You cannot be a "humanist" and be a Christian. The two are complete polar opposites. I do not want to see people who are not yet born-again be brainwashed into a lie that God does not exist and Jesus didn't die for our sins. If you are comfortable with that, then there is something wrong with your walk as a believer. That is...do you believe in hell?

Also...an unsaved person cannot glorify God. They have no understanding of Him and the Bible makes it clear that all our "good works" as an unbeliever are as "filthy rags".

As for my basic level of education...lol...I have been a tutor for over a decade. I am not clever by any stretch of the imagination but I know nonsense when I see it. How do you define "evolution" then?

I am well aware that a theory can also be a fact...however it needs to be able to be demonstratable. You can do that with gravity. You cannot do it with the beginning of the universe. Please don't suggest you can.

Again you have constructed a straw man. I did not say there is no conflict between the two, on some levels. I said that there is no conflict as far as I am concerned, because I am not personally threatened in any way by anything that humanists have to say, and neither is my faith.

Given that I am not personally threatened, I feel no need to over defend. Humanists follow their conscience, and I follow mine; there is no problem with any of that.



Again, I have no problem with that. For those who are unable to accept the concept of God, following the concept of the inherent value of mankind is a more than acceptable alternative, and I have no problem with it.

God does not give everyone the Grace to find him at the same time and in the same way, but he does say, very clearly, that what we do for one another we do for him. Therefore, whether humanists realise it or not, very often (although perhaps not always) what they do is to the glory of God.



The Big Bang is not the same as evolution. And a theory in scientific terms is not what you present it to be. Scientific theory can indeed be fact, while still remaining theory.

Once again, a rather basic level of education appears to be the issue here.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have not constructed anything at all. How on earth can Christianity (based on the belief there is a God) and humanism (based on the belief there is no God and man is therefore free to decide what is right and wrong) "happily" go together?

I also do not feel threatened at all (something which you seem to try and imply) by humanism. Everyone is entitled to their own belief. What does worry me greatly is that humanism is leading many to hell. They teach that man makes the rules and not God. You cannot be a "humanist" and be a Christian. The two are complete polar opposites. I do not want to see people who are not yet born-again be brainwashed into a lie that God does not exist and Jesus didn't die for our sins. If you are comfortable with that, then there is something wrong with your walk as a believer. That is...do you believe in hell?

Also...an unsaved person cannot glorify God. They have no understanding of Him and the Bible makes it clear that all our "good works" as an unbeliever are as "filthy rags".

As for my basic level of education...lol...I have been a tutor for over a decade. I am not clever by any stretch of the imagination but I know nonsense when I see it. How do you define "evolution" then?

I am well aware that a theory can also be a fact...however it needs to be able to be demonstratable. You can do that with gravity. You cannot do it with the beginning of the universe. Please don't suggest you can.

QED.

 

[welshman]

I'm impressed you know Latin too

QED.

 

[non-religious]

[Catherineanne]QED.

Nice

 

[theFijian]

I have not constructed anything at all. How on earth can Christianity (based on the belief there is a God) and humanism (based on the belief there is no God and man is therefore free to decide what is right and wrong) "happily" go together?

I also do not feel threatened at all (something which you seem to try and imply) by humanism. Everyone is entitled to their own belief. What does worry me greatly is that humanism is leading many to hell. They teach that man makes the rules and not God. You cannot be a "humanist" and be a Christian. The two are complete polar opposites. I do not want to see people who are not yet born-again be brainwashed into a lie that God does not exist and Jesus didn't die for our sins. If you are comfortable with that, then there is something wrong with your walk as a believer. That is...do you believe in hell?

Also...an unsaved person cannot glorify God. They have no understanding of Him and the Bible makes it clear that all our "good works" as an unbeliever are as "filthy rags".

As for my basic level of education...lol...I have been a tutor for over a decade. I am not clever by any stretch of the imagination but I know nonsense when I see it. How do you define "evolution" then?

I am well aware that a theory can also be a fact...however it needs to be able to be demonstratable. You can do that with gravity. You cannot do it with the beginning of the universe. Please don't suggest you can.

So uh...who gets to park where?