National Secular Society threatens legal action over parking privilege for Christians

[brightmorningstar]

Interestingly about 75% of the UK 2001 census identified as CofE. In that respect not sure humanists or the secualr society should be parking for free anywhere.

However it makes sense that for new churches, they provide parking.

 

[Celtic D]

Interestingly about 75% of the UK 2001 census identified as CofE. In that respect not sure humanists or the secualr society should be parking for free anywhere.

However it makes sense that for new churches, they provide parking.

England maybe, but if you take that stat. across the UK, I don't believe you. CofE is not the main church in Scotland, Ireland or Wales, so people from these nations would not claim allegence to it!!!

Why shouldn't these other groups wheither they are a minority or not, not have free parking anyway?

 

[Celtic D]

As for my basic level of education...lol...I have been a tutor for over a decade. I am not clever by any stretch of the imagination but I know nonsense when I see it.

A tutor in what subject(s)?

 

[welshman]

Maths

 

[Celtic D]

Maths

To what level?

 

[welshman]

My academic history through university has got nothing to do with whether or not an argument is correct or not. Not only that, I don't want to post personal information about me on here. I have recently taken a lot of personal information down from my profile too. This could lead me to ask the following...

Have you got any Biblically based theological degree from a Bible college? By your reasoning...If you haven't then you cannot possibly have a sound knowledge of scripture which you claim in other threads (I'm not doubting you haven't by the way)...

Even if you don't...it doesn't and shouldn't matter.

I think it is extremely ignorant, arrogant and self-indulgant to parade around on an internet forum calling out other people who they do not know as having a "basic education" like CatherineAnne did the other day.

 

[Celtic D]

My academic history through university has got nothing to do with whether or not an argument is correct or not. Not only that, I don't want to post personal information about me on here. I have recently taken a lot of personal information down from my profile too. This could lead me to ask the following...

No. you're right its nothing to do with the discussion in hand

Have you got any Biblically based theological degree from a Bible college? By your reasoning...If you haven't then you cannot possibly have a sound knowledge of scripture which you claim in other threads (I'm not doubting you haven't by the way)...

Even if you don't...it doesn't and shouldn't matter.

I think we established way back that my background is in science, not theology I have never claimed in any thread to have a sound knowledge of scripture - but anyway sound knowledge is subjective depending on a person's denomination/view point.

I think it is extremely ignorant, arrogant and self-indulgant to parade around on an internet forum calling out other people who they do not know as having a "basic education" like CatherineAnne did the other day.

For the record I agree entirely with you re the above

And to add to it for CatherineAnne people can be highly intellegent and educated but at the same time have a learning disability which may mean that their written communication skills may not actually reflect their true ability!

But we digress further from the OP

 

[ianb321red]

The two creation stories, together with much else in the OT, are indeed mythological rather than literal. This does not mean that they do not contain truth, but I suspect it is not the kind of truth that literalists can recognise. Perhaps if I compared them with the parables of the NT it might be easier to understand. Parables tell a story in order to convey a message, but we do not have to believe that the parable actually happened in order to learn from that message. There may or may not have been an actual Good Samaritan. There may or may not have been a man who built ever bigger barns and then died. There may or may not have been a woman who lost a gold coin and then spent ages looking for it, or a man who found a pearl and sold all he had to buy it. The truth of these stories is there, regardless of the fact that they are stories.

It is the same with mythology. We can learn from it, regardless of the fact that the events in the story never actually happened. To admit that they did not happen does not take away from the meaning, or the kind of truth they contain. It just means it is a different kind of truth.

I completely disagree with pretty much all of this – in fact this is the very thing I am fighting against! Christian confidence in the bible which is being gradually eroded away from within the church. Who need enemies outside the church when people are attacking the bible inside the church? You cannot compare the biblical record of events and facts with Jesus parables!

The bible is a book of historical facts. It is not to be spiritualised and/or read allegorically. The book of revelation is a mixture – but this is obvious, and common sense is perhaps the best aid to bible study in this case.
I have a real problem with Christians who spiritualise the bible, and who feel that the bible it is just a book of “values” that we can all learn from, and that the events described didn’t actually happen. The story of Jonah is presented to us in the bible as a fact. Jonah existed as a real man, Nineveh is a real place – why couldn’t it have happened?

Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin, that he was raised physically from the grave, and that he physically ascended to Heaven?
When we’re judged, I believe that we’ll be judged according to how we’ve interpreted scriptures and conveyed this to others. Therefore, maybe I’m a fundamentalist – but I take a literal approach to reading the bible.

 

[StormHawk]

ian - do you now accept the principle of equality that the NSS is espousing?

 

[theFijian]

The bible is a book of historical facts. It is not to be spiritualised and/or read allegorically.

Yet the Bible is full of poetry, allegory and metaphor, even Jesus and Paul used metaphors.

The book of revelation is a mixture – but this is obvious, and common sense is perhaps the best aid to bible study in this case.

Really, just Revelation? And common sense is actually quite a poor aid as it is subject to all kinds of inbuilt preconceptions, bias and prejudices

I have a real problem with Christians who spiritualise the bible, and who feel that the bible it is just a book of “values” that we can all learn from, and that the events described didn’t actually happen.

I have a real problem with Christians who think literal = true ergo non-literal = not true.

Therefore, maybe I’m a fundamentalist – but I take a literal approach to reading the bible.

I think on closer inspection you'll find that there are plenty of things in the Bible you don't take literally.

 

[Celtic D]

So if one is not a fundamentalist literalist, one is not a Christian? I'm so glad that God will be my judge and not you!

 

[ianb321red]

So if one is not a fundamentalist literalist, one is not a Christian? I'm so glad that God will be my judge and not you!

I won't judge anyone! But I will give my opinion. You can interpret my opinions on the authority and literacy of the bible however you like.....

 

[ianb321red]

ian - do you now accept the principle of equality that the NSS is espousing?

No - because none of us posting on this thread know the full details. And there may be extentuating circumstances which we are not aware of....

I will keep an eye open to see the developments.

I have to say that my underlying motive for posting this topic, was to bring to peoples attention to the campaigns that the NSS/BHA have got underway which bring them in to direct conflict with Christian beliefs in the UK.

Only yesterday I was listening to something from Bishop Michael Nazir Ali (interviewed while in Australia) on the rise of "aggressive secularism" in the UK and it's consequences for Christians. There are plenty of other church leaders that share his views, so I know I'm correct in my views.

I believe the UK Christians should unite on this, but certain individuals posting on this thread seem to think otherwise - which I find a mixture of bizarre and worrying....

 

[ianb321red]

Yet the Bible is full of poetry, allegory and metaphor, even Jesus and Paul used metaphors.

Correct - thanks for clarifying.


Really, just Revelation? And common sense is actually quite a poor aid as it is subject to all kinds of inbuilt preconceptions, bias and prejudices

Who said JUST Revelation?


I have a real problem with Christians who think literal = true ergo non-literal = not true.


I think on closer inspection you'll find that there are plenty of things in the Bible you don't take literally.

Like what? And on what basis do you decide? Give me some examples and back up your interpretation and basis for authority

 

[Judy02]

Yet the Bible is full of poetry, allegory and metaphor, even Jesus and Paul used metaphors.


Really, just Revelation? And common sense is actually quite a poor aid as it is subject to all kinds of inbuilt preconceptions, bias and prejudices


I have a real problem with Christians who think literal = true ergo non-literal = not true.


I think on closer inspection you'll find that there are plenty of things in the Bible you don't take literally.

Excellent points. I like this person's posts, he seems like one of the most sensible, intelligent and down to earth posters here.

And your second point about some Christians who fear non literal interpretations are interpretations to be frightened of, really bother me too. There seems to be a deep seated fear amongst some Christians (typically those who label themselves fundamentalists maybe? I'm not sure, I still don't fully understand these worldly labels, some people in the church have introduced) that to look at a passage in its cultural context or to understand something metaphorically must somehow reduce its relevance and contradict Paul's teaching that "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". (2 Timothy 3:16). Personally I've found that studying scripture in its context and understanding what it meant then, increases my understanding of the bible so much more, and it makes it all the more clearer how relevant scripture is for today.

Those who think they have to shy away from this, I feel sorry for.

 

[theFijian]

Correct - thanks for clarifying.

But you take them literally I suppose?

Like what? And on what basis do you decide? Give me some examples and back up your interpretation and basis for authority

John 10:9 - I am the gate...

On what basis do you decide that Jesus was not literally a gate? 'Common-sense' means very little when discussing hermeneutics.

And Paul has no trouble allegorising the Old Testament...see Gal 4.

 

[welshman]

It is true that Jesus didn't literally mean He was a literal wooden gate, however it still is obvious that He used that to display a truth...much like when John said "behold the lamb of God"...it didn't mean Christ was a sheep...it just described His personality (meek, mild, gentle etc). That is why I have a hard time understanding how Christians accept that, yet won't accept something like the way the anti-christ is desrcibed as a "beast" in Revelation. Both are real people. Both are described as an animal to provide some evidence to their human nature. Yet some Christians, will only believe one of these examples and not the other. That to me seems cherry picking. Anyway...just my thoughts and opinion.

What I would definitely say is that we as believers are being persecuted more and more...just read the a conservative MP is wanting to ban churches from conducting any type of hetrosexual marriage if they refuse to conduct homosexual services. It won't be long before Christ returns. That I am sure of.

Anyways...I have digressed a lot so best to keep on the OP...don't want to derail the thread.

 

[non-religious]

[welshman]
What I would definitely say is that we as believers are being persecuted more and more...

In regard to the UK do you really believe that?

Obviously we hear the occasional news item relating to how certain aspects of Christianity are supposedly being eroded by organisations like the NSS, but this form of attack has existed on the fringes of Christianity for years. Perhaps in this age of media awareness, stories like this get picked up and then consequently overblown to such as extent that people start believing this is the end of our faith as we know it. When the reality is very different.

The NSS have their own agenda, they will exploit situations in order to gain more public awareness about what they consider an unfair bias towards faith groups in our country. I'm not overly concerned about them

 

[Judy02]

^ Yeah, I'm often sceptical when Christians claim they are "certain Christ will return in their lifetime". Honestly, Christians have been saying that in every generation, since the first disciples. I don't want to try and be flippant and not be watchful as they say, to how things change, but some Christians as soon as they see any kind of problem in the world, just seem to jump on that bandwagon that Christ must be coming back in our own lifetime. Christians from every generation have said that, people predicted it when my dad was young and thought the world would end before I was born, and so on, even earlier than that. I can't help but just get bored of hearing about it now I wonder if it makes some people feel important and that their problems are somehow special, that they shouldn't have to go through? They don't like life and its problems, and it's exciting to think about God coming back in their own lifetime, to "rescue" them, rather than them having to just bear it and get on with their life as best they can. I don't know...whilst I don't think people should just be oblivious to the world and what happens, and the signs that the bible points to, people who say they "know" or are "certain" that Christ will be coming back in their own lifetime...it sounds more like a psychological crutch for them to me. It makes them feel better to believe that.

And I think the persecution that the early disciples went through during the life of Christ on earth, don't even come anywhere close to the easy life we have in Britain. And yet Christ didn't return in Paul's lifetime. To suggest our "problems" are somehow worse or more burdensome than his were, really is laughable.

 

[ianb321red]

But you take them literally I suppose?.

Do you want me to go through every book??

Songs of Songs for example is not an allegory - it is an analogy...

But I'm really only concerned about the literal events concerning creation and the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus..these are the fundamentally crucial things that are key the Christian faith..