Mystery Babylon

[A New World]

<<Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon.>>

So the words "the earth " really mean Babylon.

And you just change the words to fit your theology.

OK. Got it.

Again, If God sent prophets to Jerusalem, and she killed the prophets, and a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem, and if the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon, and the prophets rejoiced over her destruction, then mystery, Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

Are we in agreement with Scripture that first century Jerusalem was in fact mystery, Babylon of Revelation based on the evidence?

If not, why not?

 

[fatherjimparker]

Are we in agreement that with Scripture that first century Jerusalem was in fact mystery, Babylon of Revelation based on the evidence?

If not, why not?

Absolutely not. You have decided that Jerusalem is "mystery Babylon" and have selected verses which appear to support your decision and rejected or ignored any verses that refute your decision. That is called "isogesis"; the insertion of your view into scripture rather than allowing scripture to form you conclusion which is "exegesis."

You are picking snippets of the Gospels and Revelation and improperly knitting them together but are ignoring other sections which give clear evidence that Jerusalem is certainly not the Babylon which is found in Revelation.

Again; who mourns for the destruction of Babylon?

Rev 18:2-3 ... "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling
place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful
bird; for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion, and the kings
of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the
earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness.

Jerusalem was a backwater of the Roman empire not a trading or cultural hub with which "all nations" would have commerse.

It is not reasonable to say that ALL nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion or that the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her or that
the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness.

Also: Rev 18:9-10

And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and were wanton
with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her
burning; they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas!
alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy
judgment come."


The "kings of the earth" could not have cared less about the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact, they would more likely have cheered its destruction because the rebellious Jews who inhabited that backwater home of "prophets and scorpions" would no longer be a pain in the behind of Rome's body politic.

Rev 18:11-13

And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one
buys their cargo any more, cargo of gold, silver, jewels and pearls, fine
linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all articles of
ivory, all articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, cinnamon,
spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour and wheat,
cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

There is no way that the destruction of Jerusalem could cause the total cessation of trade for all the merchants of the earth.

And there is no way that Jerusalem can properly be understood to be represented by the "mystery Babylon" of Revelation.

 

[A New World]

Absolutely not. You have decided that Jerusalem is "mystery Babylon" and have selected verses which appear to support your decision and rejected or ignored any verses that refute your decision. That is called "isogesis"; the insertion of your view into scripture rather than allowing scripture to form you conclusion which is "exegesis."

You are picking snippets of the Gospels and Revelation and improperly knitting them together but are ignoring other sections which give clear evidence that Jerusalem is certainly not the Babylon which is found in Revelation.

I have presented evidence from Scripture relevant to the issue. I'm neither inserting my view into, or picking snippets, of Scriptures. I do understand the overall context but I focused my attention on the prophets mentioned in both Mt. 23 & Rev. 18 that when viewed in an unbiased manner is conclusive evidence.

Again; who mourns for the destruction of Babylon?

Rev 18:2-3 ... "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling
place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful
bird; for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion, and the kings
of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the
earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness.

Jerusalem was a backwater of the Roman empire not a trading or cultural hub with which "all nations" would have commerse.

It is not reasonable to say that ALL nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion or that the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her or that
the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness.

You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that Scripture was written by Israelites from their perspective, not from the perspective of Rome or the surrounding nations. We are predominately reading about Israel's laws, promises and judgments exclusively from Israel's perspective.

Israel was to remain pure as she had a husband. God was not married to the nations. From the perspective of the New Testament prophets, she was guilty of adultery with foreign kings causing them to enter into fornication with her. She was playing the role of a harlot with the nations.

So, from the perspective of the inspired writers, Jerusalem was not just a "backwater of the Roman empire." Why do you insist on downplaying the role of Israel? Why not develop the perspective of Scripture?

Also: Rev 18:9-10

And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and were wanton
with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her
burning; they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas!
alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy
judgment come."


The "kings of the earth" could not have cared less about the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact, they would more likely have cheered its destruction because the rebellious Jews who inhabited that backwater home of "prophets and scorpions" would no longer be a pain in the behind of Rome's body politic.

Again, Scripture was not written from a Roman perspective. But, I don't think it's unreasonable to think the nations wept and wailed over the burning city of Jerusalem. I've read that the temple was one of the wonders of the ancient world.

Rev 18:11-13

And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one
buys their cargo any more, cargo of gold, silver, jewels and pearls, fine
linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all articles of
ivory, all articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, cinnamon,
spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour and wheat,
cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

There is no way that the destruction of Jerusalem could cause the total cessation of trade for all the merchants of the earth.

From John's perspective, were merchants involved in selling and trading goods in Israel? Look at some of the items listed. Were any of those items essential in Israel's economy? Were some of them an integral part of the temple system? The answers are obvious.

And there is no way that Jerusalem can properly be understood to be represented by the "mystery Babylon" of Revelation.

The evidence presented shows it's you who are reading your preconceived ideas into the text and ignoring the perspective of the inspired writers. Jesus pronounced judgment only on Israel for shedding the blood of the prophets. John identified mystery Babylon as the one in whom the blood of the prophets was found.

Your avoidance and denial can not change the truth of Scripture. Why not submit to the clear and overwhelming amount of evidence that proves first century Old Covenant Israel had become a harlot, was identified as mystery, Babylon, and was destroyed as prophesied?

God bless you brother. I mean no offense, I'm just passionate about logic and truth.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<< I have presented evidence from Scripture relevant to the issue. >>

You have presented a SELECTION of evidence but not ALL the evidence.

<< I focused my attention on the prophets mentioned in both Mt. 23 & Rev. 18 that when viewed in an unbiased manner is conclusive evidence.>>

It is impossible to focus on only a portion of the evidence "in an unbiased manner" while ignoring the rest of the evidence. Such "focus" is, by definition, biased. What you have done is the equivalent of withholding evidence in a court of law.

<< Israel was to remain pure as she had a husband. God was not married to the nations. From the perspective of the New Testament prophets, she was guilty of adultery with foreign kings causing them to enter into fornication with her. She was playing the role of a harlot with the nations. >>

Please cite the New Testament prophets who pronounced her guilty of adultery.

You are not providing scriptural evidence here; you are stating your opinion.

<< So, from the perspective of the inspired writers, Jerusalem was not just a "backwater of the Roman empire." Why do you insist on downplaying the role of Israel? Why not develop the perspective of Scripture? >>

I am presenting to you the perspective of scripture which you insist on ignoring.

The Babylon of Revelation, by the description provided by that inspired writer, cannot be Jerusalem because her destruction would not cause the cessation of all trade on earth. It would not cause the cessation of trade because Jerusalem was relatively unimportant with regard to the world merchants of that time. The total destruction of Jerusalem would hardly cause a ripple in the accounts of the merchants except for the depreciation of the price of slaves because of the glut of slaves available after its fall.

Why do you insist on ignoring that stated, inspired, fact?

<<Again, Scripture was not written from a Roman perspective.>>

I didn't suggest that it was.

<< But, I don't think it's unreasonable to think ..... >>

Your speculation is not evidence.

<< From John's perspective, were merchants involved in selling and trading goods in Israel? >>

That is not what the scripture says.

It does not say that merchants were "involved." It says that after the destruction of Babylon "no one buys their cargo any more". (Rev 18:11) That means that all trade stopped at the destruction of Babylon.

Did all trade among all the merchants of the world suddenly stop at the destruction of Jerusalem?

No. It certainly did not.

It makes no difference to me whether or not you wish to hold to your very biased view.

Since you have made it abundantly apparent in your posts that you are not open to even consider any other view but yours, I see not reason to continue.

Have a nice day.

 

[A New World]

<< I have presented evidence from Scripture relevant to the issue. >>

You have presented a SELECTION of evidence but not ALL the evidence.

<< I focused my attention on the prophets mentioned in both Mt. 23 & Rev. 18 that when viewed in an unbiased manner is conclusive evidence.>>

It is impossible to focus on only a portion of the evidence "in an unbiased manner" while ignoring the rest of the evidence. Such "focus" is, by definition, biased. What you have done is the equivalent of withholding evidence in a court of law.

<< Israel was to remain pure as she had a husband. God was not married to the nations. From the perspective of the New Testament prophets, she was guilty of adultery with foreign kings causing them to enter into fornication with her. She was playing the role of a harlot with the nations. >>

Please cite the New Testament prophets who pronounced her guilty of adultery.

You are not providing scriptural evidence here; you are stating your opinion.

<< So, from the perspective of the inspired writers, Jerusalem was not just a "backwater of the Roman empire." Why do you insist on downplaying the role of Israel? Why not develop the perspective of Scripture? >>

I am presenting to you the perspective of scripture which you insist on ignoring.

The Babylon of Revelation, by the description provided by that inspired writer, cannot be Jerusalem because her destruction would not cause the cessation of all trade on earth. It would not cause the cessation of trade because Jerusalem was relatively unimportant with regard to the world merchants of that time. The total destruction of Jerusalem would hardly cause a ripple in the accounts of the merchants except for the depreciation of the price of slaves because of the glut of slaves available after its fall.

Why do you insist on ignoring that stated, inspired, fact?

<<Again, Scripture was not written from a Roman perspective.>>

I didn't suggest that it was.

<< But, I don't think it's unreasonable to think ..... >>

Your speculation is not evidence.

<< From John's perspective, were merchants involved in selling and trading goods in Israel? >>

That is not what the scripture says.

It does not say that merchants were "involved." It says that after the destruction of Babylon "no one buys their cargo any more". (Rev 18:11) That means that all trade stopped at the destruction of Babylon.

Did all trade among all the merchants of the world suddenly stop at the destruction of Jerusalem?

No. It certainly did not.

It makes no difference to me whether or not you wish to hold to your very biased view.

Since you have made it abundantly apparent in your posts that you are not open to even consider any other view but yours, I see not reason to continue.

Have a nice day.

I'm always interested in the methods used in a discussion of Scripture. I am convinced by Scripture that Jerusalem was described by John as mystery Babylon. I have presented sufficient evidence to prove that point. You are focused mainly on one minor point and ignoring the overall mountain of evidence. I can't force you to think logically.

Let me leave you with an attempt to address your minor point that seems to be preventing you from considering the otherwise unavoidable conclusion. Your argument basically stands or falls on one verse Rev. 18:11.

So, let's discuss it.
Revelation 18:11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore"

The merchants of the land will weep and mourn over her (mystery Babylon), for no one (in the newly destroyed city, mystery Babylon) buys their merchandise anymore.

The focus of the prophecy was the destruction of mystery Babylon for her iniquities and the blood of the prophets found in her (Rev. 18:24). The ability of the merchants to sell their merchandise in other parts of the world would not have been affected by the destruction of this one city.

Your argument that you are depending on to refute the clear, concise, and convincing evidence is easily defeated.

You have also made it abundantly apparent in your posts that you are not open to even consider any other view but your own.

You have a nice day also my brother

 

[A New World]

<< Israel was to remain pure as she had a husband. God was never married to the nations. From the perspective of the New Testament prophets, she was guilty of adultery with foreign kings causing them to enter into fornication with her. She was playing the role of a harlot with the nations. >>

Please cite the New Testament prophets who pronounced her guilty of adultery.

You are not providing scriptural evidence here; you are stating your opinion.

The New Testament prophets perspective is not determined only by what they directly state. So, where's the evidence that shows they knew she was guilty of adultery? Their views were informed by their knowledge of the Scriptures.

They were aware of the words of the prophet Jeremiah:
"The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. "And I said, after she had done all these things, 'Return to Me.' But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also." (Jer. 3:6-8)

The NT writers knew that God had long ago divorced northern Israel and scattered her among the nations. They knew BOTH Israel AND Judah were guilty of playing the harlot (adultery).

Through Israel had been judged and was already divorced, Judah was awaiting her judgment. God promised not to destroy her since Israel's Messiah would come from the line of David out of the tribe of Judah (2 Kings 8:19). Jesus arrival in His incarnation signaled the imminent end of the Old Covenant age and the judgment of the whole house of Israel.

Jesus pronounced judgment on first century Israel:
"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples... saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat... "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in... "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt... "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! "See! Your house is left to you desolate" (Mt. 23:1,2,13,32,35-38)

As we have seen, both the first century harlot Israel and the harlot mystery Babylon, would be held accountable and judged for playing the role of the harlot, for killing the prophets, and for all the righteous blood (apostles, prophets, saints) shed on the earth.

This event occurred when the Old Covenant system vanished away as Rome left Jerusalem desolate just as Jesus prophesied, in their generation.

 

[interpreter]

Mystery Babylon

I think Scripture identifies the four kingdoms that would reign over Israel until the time of the end. Daniel chapter two lists the four as 1. Gold=Babylon, 2. Silver=Medes & Persians, 3. Bronze=Greece, 4. Iron/Iron & Clay=Rome.

The forth kingdom would be in power at the time of the end of Daniel's people, Old Covenant Israel.

Daniel heard the time of the fulfillment:

"And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished." (Dan. 12:6-7)

He was told, after 3 1/2 years the power of his people would be completely shattered. The Jewish-Roman war lasted 3 1/2 years and then the final end came in Aug/Sep of AD 70.

This is why I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by Rome brought an end to the Old Covenant age.

If this is correct, mystery Babylon in Revelation would have referred to first century AD apostate Israel represented by Jerusalem.

Notice the words of John:
"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!" (Rev. 18:2)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24)

Mystery Babylon, the harlot, was found guilty and judged for killing the prophets, the saints and all who were slain on the earth.

According to Scripture, who would be found guilty of killing the prophets, saints, and all who were slain on the earth?

Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century AD leaders of Israel:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat." (Mt. 23:1-2)

"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt..."Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Mt. 23:31-32,34-36)

Jesus told His disciples when the judgment of Israel would take place:

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Mt. 24:34)

Again, in my opinion, the evidence within Scripture points to Israel and her two covenant ages. This eliminates any speculation that we are living in the last days, America is Babylon, the antichrist is alive now, etc.

I have found this approach to be a much more consistent method of interpretation. It is objective based on the evidence. The futurist method tends to be much more subjective and open to a wide variety of speculation.

May God bless you and the open and honest pursuit of truth.

LOL.Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills or many waters. The great harlot is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and 5 seas, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

 

[A New World]

LOL.Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills or many waters. The great harlot is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and 5 seas, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

Actually if you do the research several cities sit on seven hills and Jerusalem is one of them. Can you list all of the prophets that Moscow is responsible for killing? Do you think John would write about Moscow's guilt for all the (righteous) blood shed upon the earth?

No, Scripture is not about Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Reagan, Obama, the USA, Moscow or any other modern leader or country. John was told to write to audiences living in the first century about events that "must shortly take place," "for the time is near."

The evidence simply does not support futurist theories.

 

[A New World]

LOL.Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills or many waters. The great harlot is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and 5 seas, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

"Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the old city), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Jerusalem is not the only city in the world considered or historically believed to be built on seven hills. Others include Rome, Babylon, Moscow, Mecca, Lisbon, Tehran and Amman. More than nineteen cities in the United States also lay claim to be founded on seven hills."

Out of all of the cities listed only one received an indictment from our Lord for killing the prophets:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! "See! Your house is left to you desolate" (Mt. 23:37-38)

"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!..."And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:2,24)

The evidence is in, first century Jerusalem was mystery Babylon!

 

[A New World]

LOL.Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills or many waters. The great harlot is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and 5 seas, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

John mentioned nothing of five seas. If that idea is elsewhere in Scripture please provide the reference. Many times when Scripture uses symbolism it also provides the interpretation.

John did write of "many waters?"
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters...Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues." (Rev.17:1,15)

The many waters John saw were peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues, not 5 seas.

 

[interpreter]

Actually if you do the research several cities sit on seven hills and Jerusalem is one of them.

There may be several cities that sit on 7 hills, but only Moscow sits on many waters (5 seas).

Can you list all of the prophets that Moscow is responsible for killing? Do you think John would write about Moscow's guilt for all the (righteous) blood shed upon the earth?

Soviet era Moscow shed the blood of thousands of saints.

No, Scripture is not about Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Reagan, Obama, the USA, Moscow or any other modern leader or country. John was told to write to audiences living in the first century about events that "must shortly take place," "for the time is near."

LOL. You preterists are a hoot. The Revelation did start unfolding "with speed," but not in the first century. It started unfolding in 312 AD, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

 

[interpreter]

John mentioned nothing of five seas. If that idea is elsewhere in Scripture please provide the reference. Many times when Scripture uses symbolism it also provides the interpretation.

John said the great harlot sits on many waters which obviously refers to Moscow and the Moscow Canal which connects 5 seas.

"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters...Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues." (Rev.17:15)

The many waters John saw were peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues, not 5 seas.

The many waters the great harlot sits on, besides the literal meaning, also symbolize the many peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues that Soviet-era Moscow ruled over. The USSR has already fallen and now the great harlot is being judged. The average life expectancy in Russia is lower than in any industrialized nation.

 

[A New World]

John said the great harlot sits on many waters which obviously refers to Moscow and the Moscow Canal which connects 5 seas. The many waters the great harlot sits on, besides the literal meaning, also symbolize the many peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues that Soviet-era Moscow ruled over. The USSR has already fallen and now the great harlot is being judged. The average life expectancy in Russia is lower than in any industrialized nation.

In my opinion, it's obvious you are reading your ideas back into the text.

Moscow is disqualified as a candidate for mystery Babylon. Both in Jerusalem and in mystery Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century generation in Jerusalem for killing the prophets. He said a prophet can not perish outside of Jerusalem. There is no doubt, according to scriptural evidence, Jerusalem was mystery Babylon. Not Moscow, New York, Rome or any modern city, it was first century Jerusalem.

 

[interpreter]

In my opinion, it's obvious you are reading your ideas back into the text.

Moscow is disqualified as a candidate for mystery Babylon. Both in Jerusalem and in mystery Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century generation in Jerusalem for killing the prophets. He said a prophet can not perish outside of Jerusalem. There is no doubt, according to scriptural evidence, Jerusalem was mystery Babylon. Not Moscow, New York, Rome or any modern city, it was first century Jerusalem.

You are a hoot. The Revelation was written at the end of the 1st century, at least 25 years after the fall of Jerusalem, and it covers all the important events of the future that that were to follow.

 

[4x4toy]

How bout this ... AC from Ankara , FP from Rome , over New York UN a world system , Rules from the temple mount Jerusalem and New world enforcement based from Beijing and Moscow enforcing over the kingdoms of the world .. Now that is mystery right .. Leave anyone out

 

[4x4toy]

Dang , forgot Mecca

 

[A New World]

You are a hoot. The Revelation was written at the end of the 1st century, at least 25 years after the fall of Jerusalem, and it covers all the important events of the future that that were to follow.

I can either accept your opinion or the actual words of the inspired apostle. Your opinion is that the time of fulfillment of the events of Revelation is in our future. You may even believe it's soon. And you believe the great city John wrote of is the modern city of Moscow.

When I consult Scripture I find that Jerusalem is the "great city" (Rev. 11:8), and in the great city (Rev. 18:10,16,18,21) was found the blood of the prophets (18:24). Jerusalem alone was found guilty of the blood of the prophets (Mt. 23:34-36). And, John told his first century audiences that the events of Revelation "must shortly take place, for the time is near." (Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-12)

Since I know the great city that faced imminent judgment in John's day was Jerusalem, and I know the time was near, I also know Revelation must have been written prior to AD 70. I can find no historical evidence of judgment on Jerusalem shortly after AD 95-100. You'd be better off basing your opinions on Scripture.

May God bless you and the honest pursuit of truth.

 

[interpreter]

I can either accept your opinion or the actual words of the inspired apostle. Your opinion is that the time of fulfillment of the events of Revelation is in our future. You may even believe it's soon.

Wrong. Most of the Revelation has already been fulfilled.

And you believe the great city John wrote of is the modern city of Moscow.

Only Moscow sits on 5 seas, and only Soviet-era Moscow ruled over many peoples, nations and tongues. And Moscow sits on 7 hills, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

When I consult Scripture I find that Jerusalem is the "great city" (Rev. 11:8), and in the great city (Rev. 18:10,16,18,21) was found the blood of the prophets (18:24). Jerusalem alone was found guilty of the blood of the prophets (Mt. 23:34-36). And, John told his first century audiences that the events of Revelation "must shortly take place, for the time is near." (Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-12)Jerusalem is also called a great city, and was also punished, but well before the Revelation was written. And the Revelation did indeed begin unfolding shortly after it was written. The first seal was opened in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. That day is known as the turning point of history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. Jesus now rules the earth through the US which was founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse.

Since I know the great city that faced imminent judgment in John's day was Jerusalem, and I know the time was near, I also know Revelation must have been written prior to AD 70. I can find no historical evidence of judgment on Jerusalem shortly after AD 95-100. You'd be better off basing your opinions on Scripture.

May God bless you and the honest pursuit of truth.

I base my opinions on scripture and historical facts. All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD. It was pagan Rome, the 6th head of the Satanic beast, that was in imminant danger.

 

[A New World]

Wrong. Most of the Revelation has already been fulfilled. Only Moscow sits on 5 seas, and only Soviet-era Moscow ruled over many peoples, nations and tongues. And Moscow sits on 7 hills, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist..

Again, since you've failed to deal with this critical issue I'll present it again.

Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of killing the prophets and that it was not possible that a prophet perish outside Jerusalem (Mt. 23:34-38; Luke 13:33-35).

John stated that the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon (Rev. 18:24).

Therefore, Jerusalem was mystery Babylon, and mystery Babylon was Jerusalem.

Moscow never killed a prophet. She was never the subject of God's wrath. She was never in a covenant relationship with God. So she was never considered a harlot in His eyes. But Scripture accuses Israel, Judah and mystery Babylon of harlotry. Old Covenant Israel became a harlot in God's eyes and suffered His wrath as John described in Revelation.

This is sufficient evidence that proves first century Jerusalem was mystery Babylon. Scripture is absolutely silent concerning your idea that Moscow or any other modern city is the subject of Revelation.

Again, please list the prophets killed in or by Moscow for which she will be judged. That list will be very short.

 

[interpreter]

Again, since you've failed to deal with this critical issue I'll present it again.

Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of killing the prophets and that it was not possible that a prophet perish outside Jerusalem (Mt. 23:34-38; Luke 13:33-35).

John stated that the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon (Rev. 18:24).

Therefore, Jerusalem was mystery Babylon, and mystery Babylon was Jerusalem.

Moscow never killed a prophet. She was never the subject of God's wrath. She was never in a covenant relationship with God. So she was never considered a harlot in His eyes. But Scripture accuses Israel, Judah and mystery Babylon of harlotry. Old Covenant Israel became a harlot in God's eyes and suffered His wrath as John described in Revelation.

This is sufficient evidence that proves first century Jerusalem was mystery Babylon. Scripture is absolutely silent concerning your idea that Moscow or any other modern city is the subject of Revelation.

Again, please list the prophets killed in or by Moscow for which she will be judged. That list will be very short.

It is not possible that John was talking about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD because the Revelation was written at least 25 years later. Moscow killed many Christians and was the mother of harlots (i.e., the mother of atheist nations).