Muslems, What about the Scriptures and the Prophets?

[Alexei]

Hi Roadie

sura 67:81

There's no Sura 67:81!!!

,the bee

What's wrong with the bee???

Thx
Alexei

 

[Jedi]

According to The Holy Bible, Abraham lived circa 1850-2000 BC…
So Adam the first man first appeared in 3796-3946 BC!!!!

Your argument is not convincing, as it completely omits the possibility of open genealogies – a very common practice within the culture & time period of those people.

The Noble Qur'an avoided the flagrant error of the Holy Bible:

You haven’t shown any errors, yet I know of plenty within the allged “Noble” Qur’an.

According to the genealogies in chapter 5 of Genesis, we know that Noah is said to have been born 1,056 years after Adam.

Again, you’re not thinking this through. Open genealogies were quite common, and so your argument is based on nothing more than a blind assumption that these are closed.

Sun was cretaed on the fourth day [Genesis 1:14-19], however there was light on earth on the first day [Genesis 1:1-5]

Ever hear of stars? This makes perfect sense, as it would take light quite some time to get from far away stars and reach earth – longer than the sun’s existence thus far.

Sun was cretaed[sic] on the fourth day [Genesis 1:14-19], however plants were present on the third day [Genesis 1:11-13]. Well what about photosynthesis?

You’re incongruent in your argumentation, since here you object that there was no light, yet previously you argued that light was created on the first day. Curious.

Now let me return the favor and turn the tables against Islam.

How long is a “day” to Allah? Surah 22:47 states that Allah’s day is equal to a thousand solar years, but surah 70:4 states that a day is fifty thousand solar years long.

How long did Allah take to create the earth? Surahs 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 state that creation required six days, but in 41:9-12 the creation narrative adds up to eight days.

Which was created first: Heaven or earth? Surah 2:29 clearly states that Allah created the earth first and then heaven, but suarh 79:27-30 reverses the order.

From what substance were people made? The answers given are a blood clot (Surah 96:1-2), water (Surah 21:30), burned clay (Surah 15:26), dust (Surah 3:59), nothing (Surah 19:67), earth (Surah 11:61), or a drop of thick fluid (Surahs 16:4; 75:37).

Does Allah ever forgive shirk (idolatry)? The Qur’an is unclear. The sin is listed as unforgivable in surahs 4:48 and 116, but forgivable in surahs 4:153 and 25:68-71. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism in worshiping moon, sun, and stars (surah 6:76-78), yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without sin.

According to surah 21:76, Noah and all of his family survived the flood, but surah 11:42-43 reports that one of Noah’s sons drowned.

Do Christians go to Heaven or Hell? The eternal destination of Christians is in doubt. Surahs 2:62 and 5:69 teach that Christians shall enter paradise, but surahs 5:72 and 3:85 say they will go to hell.

Is Jesus alive or dead? Surah 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad, but surah 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God without death.

This is just a sample to whet your appetite. There are far more interesting things if we consult the traditions of Muhammad in the Hadith (which, according to the South African Council of Muslim Theologians, the Hadith/Sunnah is the sensible explanation of an otherwise sporadically ambiguous Qur’an).

 

[Alexei]

Hi Jedi

So why should I accept your interpretation about the open genealogies? Where does the Holy Bible say that? Those genealogies are clearly man made and not divinely inspired.
Genesis 1 is just a human work, and reading your replies makes me understand why the great numbers of atheists are found in the Christian societies.

How long is a “day” to Allah? Surah 22:47 states that Allah’s day is equal to a thousand solar years, but surah 70:4 states that a day is fifty thousand solar years long.

The first verse 22:47 describes the polytheist's taunting of Muhammad and their demand that he hurry up and bring the torment of hellfire if he is truthful. The verse goes on to describe God's patience in the face of such arrogance and goading and how a "day" with our Lord is like a thousand years with us. In other words, God does not need to be in a hurry to take them in their sins "right now," rather he gives the transgressor more and more rope and more and more chances to repent not needing to follow the human desire of "get revenge NOW or he might get away." For our Lord to wait for a thousand years is like our waiting for one day. He knows that no one shall escape Him no matter how they may delude themselves.

The verse 70:4 speaks about the Day of Judgment and describes it as "a day the span of which is fifty thousand years." This is part of the torment of the evil and sinful people of earth. They are taken on that day to a long and drawn-out judgment which is in and of itself a horrendous punishment

How long did Allah take to create the earth? Surahs 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 state that creation required six days, but in 41:9-12 the creation narrative adds up to eight days.

Neither of these two, however, are used in verse 10 (the only one which mentions four days) which instead uses the adverb "wa" implying parallel, or "overlapping" actions. In other words, the grammar tells us that the four days mentioned in 10 are a continuation of the two mentioned in verse 9. The four days of "measuring the earth's sustenance" refers to the two days of the creation of the earth in addition to the two days of the "spreading out of the earth's features".

For example, the world renown track and fielder Carl Lewis might say "I am now 32 years old. I started elementary school when I was 6, then I spent 12 years studying for my high-school diploma and I spent 24 years training to be the world's best long-jumper. Then I settled down and have spent the last two years taking care of my family." Does this mean that he was 18 years old when he started training for the long jump? Did he continue till he was 42 years old? If we add 6 + 12 + 24 + 2 we get 44. How then can he be "32 years old" now?. To understand this we need to notice that he did not say that he started training when he was eighteen. He did not say "then" I trained for 24 years. We now realize that he started training at the same time he started elementary school, when he was 6. He went to school and trained for track and field at the same time. After he graduated from high-school he continued to train for 12 more years. They were "overlapping" actions.

Which was created first: Heaven or earth? Surah 2:29 clearly states that Allah created the earth first and then heaven, but suarh 79:27-30 reverses the order.

The earth was created first, as mentioned in the first verse of 2:29. The first verse uses the word "Khalaqa" (created). The second set of verses only say that God "Daha" (spread out and gave features) the earth after the creation of the heavens, not that he "Khalaqa" (created) it. This is clear sign of the continental drift theory launhed by Wegener in 1912.

From what substance were people made? The answers given are a blood clot (Surah 96:1-2), water (Surah 21:30), burned clay (Surah 15:26), dust (Surah 3:59), nothing (Surah 19:67), earth (Surah 11:61), or a drop of thick fluid (Surahs 16:4; 75:37).

I wonder, if three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

If two physicists now came along and one said "bread is made from atoms" and the other said "bread is made from molecules," would this be an even further "contradiction"?

Please try to read the books of Prof. Keith Moore, Prof. E. Marshall Johnson, Prof. Joe Leigh Simpson, Prof. T.V.N. Persaud , Dr. Maurice Bucaille, and Dr. Tejatet Tejasen.. to find out the greatness of the Noble Qur'an.

Does Allah ever forgive shirk (idolatry)? The Qur’an is unclear. The sin is listed as unforgivable in surahs 4:48 and 116, but forgivable in surahs 4:153 and 25:68-71. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism in worshiping moon, sun, and stars (surah 6:76-78), yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without sin.

Abraham's actions were a stage play for the benefit of his people, the worshippers of planets, in order to get them to thinking about what they were worshipping and realize the fallacy of their actions. This is made clear from the proceeding two verses of 74-75 which clearly state that not only was prophet Abraham already worshipping God and reproaching his father for worshipping his people's planet-idols, but God had already shown Abraham such signs in heaven and in earth as to establish his faith with certainty. Only after confirming these two facts do the verses of 76 onwards begin to describe how he used his wisdom to think up this ruse in order to draw his people towards the same truth which he had been guided to. And yes, Muslims do insist that all the prophets are sinless.

As for shirk, or polytheism, God does not forgive it if a person dies upon it. Even polytheism is forgiven those who repent before their death.

According to surah 21:76, Noah and all of his family survived the flood, but surah 11:42-43 reports that one of Noah’s sons drowned.

The word "all" is nowhere to be found in 21:76.

"And Noah called unto his Lord saying: 'O my Lord, my son is of my family and your promise is true. Truly, You are the Most Just of judges.' He (God) said: 'He is not of your family, verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that which you have no knowledge. I admonish you lest you be of the ignorant.' Noah said: 'O my Lord, I seek refuge in You that I should ask You that of which I have no knowledge, and unless you forgive me and have mercy upon me I will indeed be among the losers...."[The Noble Qur’an 45:47]

The family of the prophets are the righteous people, not, as human intellect would imagine, a simple blood relationship. Where else can we find confirmation of this fact? Well, let us read the Bible:

"There came then his (Jesus') brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." Mark 3:31-35

Wouldn't it have been better to first read the Qur'an, or even the Bible, before crying "contradiction"?

Do Christians go to Heaven or Hell? The eternal destination of Christians is in doubt. Surahs 2:62 and 5:69 teach that Christians shall enter paradise, but surahs 5:72 and 3:85 say they will go to hell.

Verse 2:62 and 5:69 presents 3 conditions:
1- Belief in Allah
2- Belief in Hereafter
3- Live a righteous life.

Now according to verse 3:31:

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah, then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunna), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[The Noble Qur'an 3:31].





When you really believe in Allah, you should follow his messenger Muhammad and accept monotheism.
And following his Messenger Muhammad makes you a Muslim.
So how did that contradict verse 3:85 and 5:72?

Is Jesus alive or dead? Surah 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad, but surah 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God without death.

Noble Verse 3:144 "Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many were the messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude."

Noble Verse 4:158 "Nay, Allah raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;"

There is no contradiction in the Noble Verses above. Noble Verse 3:144 states "many were the apostle that passed away before him." The word "many" indicates that not every single apostle before Muhammad had passed away. Jesus did not pass away nor ever got killed.

Next please...
Thx
Alexei

 

[Alexei]

Hi Roadie

- the fallacy that the sky is a solid dome is taught at least 15 times in the koran.s

- continues the ancient error that the atmosphere is immaterial and has nothing to do with flight.

- sun folded up.how can a sphere be folded up

- our small sun travels around the big earth.

- stars all tiny.the koran repeatedly claims that the stars are tiny and the sun goes around he earth

Please can you provide me with verses numbers.

earth flat

I think you meant here:
The earth, We have spread it out. How excellently We did that." [The Noble Qur'an 51:48]
What earth is meant here? The earth as a planet? Or the earth as crust?
The carpet which has been spread out is the Earth's crust, a solidified shell on which we can live. This is a clear sign to continental drift theory launched by Wegener in 1912.
Now reading the Holy Bible:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth [Revelations 7:1]
4 corners of the earth?
The earth has 4 corners if it is only rectangular?
However if you take here the earth as Crust, then you'll understand that the 4 corners are West, South, East, North.

sun is a burning lamp

and placed a blazing lamp [The Noble Qur'an 78:13]
The arabic word used here is "wahaj" which means very hot. So what is bothering you here please?

sura 15:19.sura 126:15 he hath thrown firm mountains on the earth lest it move with you.the mountains keep the earth from moving when people walk

http://www.beconvinced.com/science/QURANMOUNTAIN.htm

moon split

Does a miricale sound familiar to you?
If you don't believe in miracles, then please explain how did Jesus raise a person from death?
And do you have any proof that the moon was not splitted?

Thx
Alexei

 

[Jedi]

So why should I accept your interpretation about the open genealogies? Where does the Holy Bible say that?

That’s why you look at the culture and of those people at that point in history to obtain a more reliable exegesis. You’re trying to take things only one way at face value to meet your own ends, which is a very dishonest way of studying any text. If there lies another option, in this case a more likely one, then your “proof” against the Bible doesn’t stand, since it blindly presumes that a given text is one way when that is not necessarily so.

Those genealogies are clearly man made and not divinely inspired.

Now you’re just begging the question. I could just as well say that the entire Koran is man made, but that won’t get us anywhere, now will it?

Genesis 1 is just a human work, and reading your replies makes me understand why the great numbers of atheists are found in the Christian societies.

Haha, what a typical Muslim response. It is the age-old idea of the “Christian” west versus the “Muslim” east, spawned when the Christians fought back against the Muslim hordes conquering everyone left and right during the Crusades. I hate to break it to you, but this idea is far from the truth.

I wonder, if three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

This is an inadequate response. Do you mean to say that humans were made from all of these things? If so, at the same time, we were made out of “nothing” as well as all of these things, which is contradictory.

As for shirk, or polytheism, God does not forgive it if a person dies upon it. Even polytheism is forgiven those who repent before their death.

Another inadequate response. We are told that “Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him” (4:48). However, he did just that in Surah 4:153 in saying, “Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this.” If it weren’t wrong, then there would be nothing to pardon. You still have contradictory statements concerning shirk.

Wouldn't it have been better to first read the Qur'an, or even the Bible, before crying "contradiction"?

This is also a terrible method of exegesis, as you presume that a given phrase or word means the same thing every time it is mentioned. This is untrue. In 21:76, it says that “his followers” were delivered, implying that if you were a follower, you were delivered. It does not say “most of his followers,” but leaves it general as to imply the whole lot.

Verse 2:62 and 5:69 presents 3 conditions:

Surah 2:62 states, “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” Jews and Christians are specifically said to be those who “believe,” and then gathers up anyone else who might believe in “Allah” (presented here as God in whatever form, since even the beliefs of the Jews and Christians are accepted), then they’ll be saved. This is plainly contradicted in 5:72 by spelling out a Christian belief: “Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” Thus at one part, you can be Christian and go to Heaven, but later on, if you don’t forsake Christian theology, you’re condemned. The same principle is taught in 3:85 – “And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

There is no contradiction in the Noble Verses above. Noble Verse 3:144 states "many were the apostle that passed away before him." The word "many" indicates that not every single apostle before Muhammad had passed away. Jesus did not pass away nor ever got killed.

Actually, 3:114 reads “And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful” (Underlines mine), version being used found at http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html.

4 corners of the earth?
The earth has 4 corners if it is only rectangular?

Another very poor exegesis, as you completely neglect the phrases, culture, history, and word usage at the time this was written. “Four corners of the earth” was an expression to say “everywhere.” When a scientist says he worked “from sunrise to sunset,” does that mean he is now unscientific because he therefore must believe that the sun actually sets instead of having the earth revolve around the sun? Surely not, but that’s the sort of logic you’re using here. Furthermore, Isaiah 40:22 speaks of earth as being circular – just like we know it to be today.

 

[Alexei]

Hi Jedi

That’s why you look at the culture and of those people at that point in history to obtain a more reliable exegesis. You’re trying to take things only one way at face value to meet your own ends, which is a very dishonest way of studying any text. If there lies another option, in this case a more likely one, then your “proof” against the Bible doesn’t stand, since it blindly presumes that a given text is one way when that is not necessarily so.

Where does the Holy Bible say that these are opened Genealogies? And until you find the answer spare me your shallow replies please!

Now you’re just begging the question. I could just as well say that the entire Koran is man made, but that won’t get us anywhere, now will it?

Of course, when these genealogies point that Adam lived aroun 3900 BC, then logically it's man made. Of course Big Jesus wouldn't do such mistake.

Haha, what a typical Muslim response. It is the age-old idea of the “Christian” west versus the “Muslim” east, spawned when the Christians fought back against the Muslim hordes conquering everyone left and right during the Crusades. I hate to break it to you, but this idea is far from the truth.

Can someone explain me the relation between my answer and the reply?

This is an inadequate response. Do you mean to say that humans were made from all of these things? If so, at the same time, we were made out of “nothing” as well as all of these things, which is contradictory.

Just re-read my reply when you are awake and you'll find the answer.

Another inadequate response. We are told that “Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him” (4:48). However, he did just that in Surah 4:153 in saying, “Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this.” If it weren’t wrong, then there would be nothing to pardon. You still have contradictory statements concerning shirk

Just re-read my reply when you are awake and you'll find the answer.

This is also a terrible method of exegesis, as you presume that a given phrase or word means the same thing every time it is mentioned. This is untrue. In 21:76, it says that “his followers” were delivered, implying that if you were a follower, you were delivered. It does not say “most of his followers,” but leaves it general as to imply the whole lot.

Wouldn't be better for you to read your own book b4 crying "contradiction"?

Surah 2:62 states, “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” Jews and Christians are specifically said to be those who “believe,” and then gathers up anyone else who might believe in “Allah” (presented here as God in whatever form, since even the beliefs of the Jews and Christians are accepted), then they’ll be saved. This is plainly contradicted in 5:72 by spelling out a Christian belief: “Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” Thus at one part, you can be Christian and go to Heaven, but later on, if you don’t forsake Christian theology, you’re condemned. The same principle is taught in 3:85 – “And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

According to 3:31, believing in Allah means following His messenger Muhammad. And until you do that spare me your shallow reply.

Actually, 3:114 reads “And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful” (Underlines mine), version being used found at http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html.

He he he
Now you want to teach me my arabic language.

Another very poor exegesis, as you completely neglect the phrases, culture, history, and word usage at the time this was written. “Four corners of the earth” was an expression to say “everywhere.” When a scientist says he worked “from sunrise to sunset,” does that mean he is now unscientific because he therefore must believe that the sun actually sets instead of having the earth revolve around the sun? Surely not, but that’s the sort of logic you’re using here. Furthermore, Isaiah 40:22 speaks of earth as being circular – just like we know it to be today.

He he he, And I am Bond, James Bond.
And this reply wasn't for you.
And for Isaiah 40:22, the Hebrew word is "Chwug" which means circle. Circles are two dimensionals geometric forms.
So we still talking about flat circular earth in the Bible. And why don'y you accept that "circle" is just an expression or was used in non-literal sense?


Thx
Alexei

 

[Jedi]

Where does the Holy Bible say that these are opened Genealogies? And until you find the answer spare me your shallow replies please!

Where does it say they are closed? You have provided no evidence to the contrary and have only begged the question they are closed. If you actually do a little research, you’ll find that open genaeologies were quite common among people of that day, and so your argument is far from solid, since the only way it works is if you blindly presume that these are closed.

Of course, when these genealogies point that Adam lived aroun 3900 BC, then logically it's man made. Of course Big Jesus wouldn't do such mistake.

But these genealogies do not necessarily point to the conclusion that Adam lived around 3900 B.C.E. This conclusion is based solely on your blind assumptions.

Can someone explain me the relation between my answer and the reply?

The phrase “Christian societies.” Were you not referring to the West? If not, please point out where a government is ruled as a Christian theocracy today.

Just re-read my reply when you are awake and you'll find the answer.

You’re simply avoiding the objection now. Were people made out of nothing or these things listed? Both would be a contradiction.

Just re-read my reply when you are awake and you'll find the answer.

And I told you and explained how your “answer” is inadequate. You sure do love begging the question, don’t you?

Wouldn't be better for you to read your own book b4 crying "contradiction"?

This has absolutely nothing to do with my response.

According to 3:31, believing in Allah means following His messenger Muhammad. And until you do that spare me your shallow reply.

Again, you are not addressing the objections. I didn’t expect you would, since these contradictions blatantly stare you in the face, and I predicted you would simply look the other way to avoid them, as you’ve done thus far.

Now you want to teach me my arabic language.

Considering I did live in Saudia Arabia for a number of years, I don’t think I’m completely ignorant.

And this reply wasn't for you.

Irrelevant – I responded to you.

And for Isaiah 40:22, the Hebrew word is "Chwug" which means circle. Circles are two dimensionals geometric forms.

You’re splitting hairs now. When you look at a picture of the earth in a science text book, what does it appear as? A “circle” perhaps? My pointing it out to you was simply to show that the “four corners” phrase was merely an expression to illustrate a point.

 

[Alexei]

Hi Jedi

Where does it say they are closed? You have provided no evidence to the contrary and have only begged the question they are closed. If you actually do a little research, you’ll find that open genaeologies were quite common among people of that day, and so your argument is far from solid, since the only way it works is if you blindly presume that these are closed.

This is an inadequate response.
I counted the names. So it's closed

But these genealogies do not necessarily point to the conclusion that Adam lived around 3900 B.C.E. This conclusion is based solely on your blind assumptions.

This is an inadequate response.
Sure they point to Adam lived in 3900 BC. And that's what makes the Bible as man made.

The phrase “Christian societies.” Were you not referring to the West? If not, please point out where a government is ruled as a Christian theocracy today.

Any Christian society.

You’re simply avoiding the objection now. Were people made out of nothing or these things listed? Both would be a contradiction.

This is an inadequate response.
Re-re-read my reply and you'll find the answer.

And I told you and explained how your “answer” is inadequate. You sure do love begging the question, don’t you?

This is an inadequate response
Re-re-read my reply and you'll find the answer.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my response.

This is an inadequate response
Wouldn't be better for you to read first your own book b4 crying "contradiction".

Again, you are not addressing the objections. I didn’t expect you would, since these contradictions blatantly stare you in the face, and I predicted you would simply look the other way to avoid them, as you’ve done thus far.

This is an inadequate response
Believing in Allah the you must follow His messenger Muhammad. Fullfill this condition then come back to me.

Considering I did live in Saudia Arabia for a number of years, I don’t think I’m completely ignorant

This is an inadequate response
And this made you Sibaweyh?

Irrelevant – I responded to you.

And this reply is not for you

You’re splitting hairs now. When you look at a picture of the earth in a science text book, what does it appear as? A “circle” perhaps? My pointing it out to you was simply to show that the “four corners” phrase was merely an expression to illustrate a point.

This is an inadequate response
Nope, it's a sphere not a circle.
4 corners applied to earth as planet ==> rectangular earth (wrong answer)
4 corners applied to earth crust ==> west, east, south, north (correct answer)

Thx
Alexei

 

[Jedi]

This is an inadequate response.
I counted the names. So it's closed

Simply because you counted the names doesn’t mean it’s closed – the very nature of an open genealogy is that not all names are listed.

Sure they point to Adam lived in 3900 BC. And that's what makes the Bible as man made.

You’re using circular reasoning now. Your argument is essentially “The Bible is man made because of this interpretation of this text, and this text can only be interpreted in this incorrect way because it’s man made.”

Any Christian society.

Like what? You haven’t listed any.

Re-re-read my reply and you'll find the answer.

Heh, I point out you’re avoiding the objection, and this is the answer I get. I need go no further.

Believing in Allah the you must follow His messenger Muhammad. Fullfill this condition then come back to me.

Again, stating this does not answer the objection in saying that Christians were still listed as those who were accepted by Allah.

And this made you Sibaweyh?

Your ad-hominemn argument here is less than impressive.

Nope, it's a sphere not a circle.

That’s what you see in your science text books? Truly, your pages are very odd in their shape.

This is becoming pointless very fast, since all you’ve done thus far is largely beg the question concerning specific objections and rebuttals to your responses.

 

[thaiv]

This argument is a lost cause, just like many others. Maybe there should be some guidelines so we will not go in circles. Alexei, you previously said the Bible was man made. If it is man made and untrustworthy, why do you quote from it to support the common Islamic view that Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible? Muhammad himself said he was confirming it, not replacing it. There is also nothing wrong with looking into history and culture to understand things in the Bible (or Quran). People look into history and culture for the Quran to support the claim that Muhammad's revelation to fight the persecuters had to do with the heathen that were oppressing him. History has also been used to confirm many facts in the Bible as well as the Quran.

 

[alliedone]

I never saw all of that before. Good point. Its funny how the Quran is praised for scientific accuracy by Muslims, while at the same time there are inconsistantcies.

They have just as many inconsitancies as any other scripture, but the thing with them is since their work is so preserved and not revised all the time, it should be more accurate, right?

 

[thaiv]

They have just as many inconsitancies as any other scripture, but the thing with them is since their work is so preserved and not revised all the time, it should be more accurate, right?

Looks like you are talking about Bible translations. Of course they have to be revised. There is nothing like the original language. The revisions are to get closer to the original meaning. There will never be a direct and perfect translation, but you can get pretty close if you have good footnotes. I have never heard of an ancient manuscript getting "revised." Remember there are over 10 000 ancient manuscripts that support the NT and OT alone. When the dead sea scrolls were discovered, scholars were surprised by how accurate the Scripture we have to day is similar to the ancient scrolls.

 

[alliedone]

Yes, I know thisbut I guess you didn't understand my banter...sorry Muslims are proud that their scriptures are intact and have not been "corrupted" like the bible or even the Torah.

Well I was told that the dead sea scrolls support the koran more. Does anyone believe that or can they prove that wrong?

 

[IronEagle]

You haven’t shown any errors, yet I know of plenty within the allged “Noble” Qur’an.

People rarely see any mistakes in their own faith, you have to look at it from a secular perspective. Atheists find more historical mistakes in Bible than Koran... explain that to me?

Alexei can you give me more information on city of Iram mentioned in the Koran?

 

[thaiv]

We need to all do some research on ancient manuscripts then come back to this. Just because somebody says their scripture is intact and trustworthy does not mean its necessarily true. We should research any claims people make. Yes, I know, that means me too.

Dead Sea scrolls- nothing to do with the Quran. We are speaking about 65 AD not 650 AD. This has to do with quotes from Deuteronomy and parts of the Psalms.

The athiestic claim- That seemed more like a flat out opinion than anything. Please give support for what you say.

 

[Alexei]

Hi Thaiv

I do not need to prove for myself that Muhammad is the prophet mentioned in Det 18:18, I am just doing this for you to see the truth.

If this bothering you, I'll stop talking about this subject. I just thought exchanging ideas might be useful and interesting.



Hi IronEagle

Alexei can you give me more information on city of Iram mentioned in the Koran?

http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/Info_10822.asp
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/History/Art_Arch/Umar_Iram.htm

Ebla: Splendor Or An Unknown Empire" by Howard La Fay (pp. 730-759), National Geographic, December 1978, page 735-736:
The names of cities thought to have been founded much later, such as Beirut and Byblos, leap from the tablets. Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is Iram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran.

Thx
Alexei

 

[roadie432002]

alexia,you dont need to prove that muhammad is the prophet in Deut 18:18 because you cant. your answer is a cop out..read Deut 20:15-19 and the truth is the prophet to be is Jesus Christ.why would the God of the Jews and Christians mention the false prophet muhammad in the first place?your god allah is not the same God of the Jews and the Christians.allah has no son.our God,the only true God has a son and his name is Jesus.

 

[thaiv]

Alexei, by all means continue to talk about the subject. Sorry if my tone seemed irritated.

 

[IronEagle]

Thanks Alexei

 

[Arthra]

Ironeagle wrote:

"...can you give me more information on city of Iram mentioned in the Koran?"

This is to me a fascinating question and it's called rather poetically "Iram the City of Lofty Pillars" and likely located in Aden. Some have also considered it a kind of "Atlantis" lost in the sands...

"A Dictionary of Islam" by Thomas Patrick Hughs has this entry:

A place mentioned in Surih 89 verse 6: "Iram of the columns the like of which has not been created in these lands."

It is related that ash-Shaddad the son of 'Ad ordered the construction of a terrestrial paradise in the desert of 'Adan, ostensibly to rival the celestial one, and to be called Iram after his great grandfather. On going to take possession of it, he and all his people were struck dead by a noise from heaven and the paradise disappeared."

There's also a story that remote sensing via NASA satellite located a site:

"...excavations uncovered a large octagonal fortress with thick walls ten feet high and eight tall towers at the corners. The archaeologists also found Greek, Roman, and Syrian pottery, the oldest of which was dated at more than 4,000 years old. The discovery of these types of artifacts from far away places indicated that this was indeed a major center for trade and likely the fabled Ubar.

One startling result of the excavation was that it appears that Ubar did meet with a catastrophic end, as many of the legends describe. The excavation revealed a giant limestone cavern beneath the fortress. The scientists believe that Ubar may have been destroyed when a large portion of it collapsed into the cavern."


- Art