Mormon Recruiting in an Evangelical Church

[MormonFriend]

Not exactly, as I understand it. Mormons go to great lengths in their assertions concerning universal salvation/resurrection through the perfect atonement of Jesus Christ. However, the universal salvation is rather hollow as a few of the "saved" will end up in the Outer Darkness (the Mormon equivalent of hell) anyhow because they proved themselves entirely unworthy of salvation. Those who are truly worthy end up as gods and goddesses in the upper echelons of the Celestial Kingdom, but only by working their little fingers off in this life to prove their worthiness.

You do not understand it.

 

[Rescued One]

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5)

Is this not a stipulation?

No, it's a description of those He saved. Without the new birth, we aren't serving Him.

 

[Rescued One]

You do not understand it.

What in particular doesn't he understand? Resurrection isn't salvation, and it certainly isn't if you go to outer darkness!

 

[MormonFriend]

Yep.

When my daughter turned 16 I let her drive the old Corolla. She asked, "Is it my car?"

I replied with some intended sarcasm (but only some) "Yes, but the keys are mine. Drive responsibly and I'll let you use the keys, if not I'll withhold the keys." And a few times I pulled the keys.

Is this the Mormon idea of eternal life?

True principles are universal.

I see a grand parable here. You love your daughter no less than I love mine. You understand much better than she does about the dangers involved, you do not want to lose her or have others harmed by her irresponsability. There are laws associated with driving that are designed to protect all drivers and make the highway system most effecient for the multitudes that share this system. Without obedience to these laws by ourselves and by others, we do not enjoy the safety factor, or good flowing traffic. (Can you tell I am from the L.A. Area?)

This principle applies to our world. We have a powerful tool called a body instead of a car. We have knowledge of of our surroundings and how to build anything that our increasing knowledge offers. We have free choice to use it anyway we personally want to. As a society, we have made laws that govern our use of these bodies, so there would be a safety factor, and an effecient system to work together for the benifit of all. People have the choice to violate those laws, and they do. Look at the good and bad that has developed because of this setup. Such great potential, but hampered by the chaos created by selfish behavior by the relatively few.

In the hereafter we have resurrected bodies that are glorified and eternal. That is extremely more powerful. We will have access to greater knowledge to build and apply with our more powerful bodies. We will have free will to do so. Will heaven be chaotic and generate sorrow as it is here in this temporary and probationary sphere that we call earth life? Not if the purpose of earth life is to separate the wheat from the tares, so that those who can utilize their bodies selflessly can go to the place where fulness of law yields fulness of peace, safety, and progress by developing our potential ..... All because these would use their free will to harmonize with the fulness of law. They passed the stringent driving course I mentioned before. They are given the keys.

There is a teaching in the Book of Mormon that is paramount, to help know and see how the pieces of the LDS puzzle come together. It states that we cannot repent after this life, because the same spirit that had power to posses (or rule) our hearts in this life, will be the same spirit that will have power to possess/rule our hearts in the hereafter. I assume that piece of the puzzle does not fit into puzzle pieces that make up your beliefs.

The tares are not necessarily condemned. They would not harmonize with the fulness of God's laws. But many kingdoms, as plentiful as the stars above, are also governed by laws, but not the fulness of laws. With the laws that the tares will obey, a kingdom of glory (but not a fulness of glory) is prepared for them according to what laws they choose to harmonize with. Those that will not abide by any law have no place of glory, by their own choice and doings.

Written in weakness, please do not capitaize on that, but understand the basics as I tried to compare universal principles.

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5)

Is this not a stipulation?

No, it's a description of those He saved. Without the new birth, we aren't serving Him.

I disagree. But I will follow your thought.
I hate to be personal and I don't try to point fingers, but I need to use an example. You claim to be among the elect with the new birth. You have indicated that you continue to sin, as all do. But eternal salvation is only unto all them that obey him. Is not sin direct disobedience to the Author of salvation?

 

[drstevej]

You are from L.A.
I am in LA.

My pieces are Biblical
Your pieces are Bible plus LDS Texts.

Try dumping the pieces of TWO together swirl them and the picture looks nothing like the picture made of ONLY puzzle 1 pieces.

 

[Rescued One]

I disagree. But I will follow your thought.
I hate to be personal and I don't try to point fingers, but I need to use an example. You claim to be among the elect with the new birth.

Okay. I don't recall saying that I am elect, but Christians(not hypocrites) are the elect.

You have indicated that you continue to sin, as all do.

I have said that two natures are at war in believers:

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:17

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:15

Because we have received the new birth, we HATE sin. We want to be rid of it!

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:19

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 6:19

But eternal salvation is only unto all them that obey him. Is not sin direct disobedience to the Author of salvation?

Are we fighting the battle? Or are we wallowing in sin?

17But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 18For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
2 Corinthians 10

3I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2

We are being changed, but we aren't like Him until we see Him. Please read my sig:

 

[Tenebrae]

Is it ethical to proselytize like Ken did?

I think if a person has to lie about what they are doing (or at least try to) its highly unethical

 

[MormonFriend]

You are from L.A.
I am in LA.

My pieces are Biblical
Your pieces are Bible plus LDS Texts.

Try dumping the pieces of TWO together swirl them and the picture looks nothing like the picture made of ONLY puzzle 1 pieces.

But swirling the pieces together (one puzzle) will result in everyone who trys to put it together and see the full picture, will always see it different. And then they divide because of it. Yes, the pieces must be studied carefully, both shape and color. And Christians are second to none in dilligent study. Yet they still come up with different results and divide. Division alone is prohibited by God, so in who's name do they divide? The missing element is personal revelation by the Spirit, which shows the individual where the pieces go, when God knows they will be true and faithful to those revelations. So they must wait in paitence and excercise repentance and obedience, before God will reveal the rest of the puzzle, one piece at a time. That is called by Isaiah "line upon line and precept upon precept." that is the only way true believers will become one and truly united, when they see the big picture from the same source of Light.

Please share with me, according to how the pieces of your biblical picture puzzle fit together, what Isaiah means to communicate by those words.

 

[Rescued One]

But swirling the pieces together (one puzzle) will result in everyone who trys to put it together and see the full picture, will always see it different. And then they divide because of it. Yes, the pieces must be studied carefully, both shape and color. And Christians are second to none in dilligent study. Yet they still come up with different results and divide. Division alone is prohibited by God, so in who's name do they divide? The missing element is personal revelation by the Spirit, which shows the individual where the pieces go, when God knows they will be true and faithful to those revelations. So they must wait in paitence and excercise repentance and obedience, before God will reveal the rest of the puzzle, one piece at a time. That is called by Isaiah "line upon line and precept upon precept." that is the only way true believers will become one and truly united, when they see the big picture fro the same source of Light.

Please share with me, according to how the pieces of your biblical picture puzzle fit together, what Isaiah means to communicate by those words.

Because you are unable to identify Christians, you can't say whether they are divided or are united. God teaches us line upon line through the Bible and the Holy Spirit instead of through a man who was sustained by humans as prophet of a church. Mormons have been rewriting Mormonism for years and several groups have broken away from each other. You are wrong about how Christians will be united.

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

 

[drstevej]

But swirling the pieces together (one puzzle) will result in everyone who trys to put it together and see the full picture, will always see it different. And then they divide because of it. Yes, the pieces must be studied carefully, both shape and color. And Christians are second to none in dilligent study. Yet they still come up with different results and divide. Division alone is prohibited by God, so in who's name do they divide? The missing element is personal revelation by the Spirit, which shows the individual where the pieces go, when God knows they will be true and faithful to those revelations. So they must wait in paitence and excercise repentance and obedience, before God will reveal the rest of the puzzle, one piece at a time. That is called by Isaiah "line upon line and precept upon precept." that is the only way true believers will become one and truly united, when they see the big picture from the same source of Light.

Please share with me, according to how the pieces of your biblical picture puzzle fit together, what Isaiah means to communicate by those words.

I too believe the Spirit aids our study. But you insist that Mormonism is what the Spirit will show me if I am sincere. Is this not a way of saying that if you do not come to the same conclusions that I have then you are not led by the Spirit?

Your faith claims that the Book of Abraham is Scripture yet those who know Egyptology say it is a fraud.

"It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud."

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford, England

"I have examined the illustrations given in the 'Pearl of Great Price.' In the first place, they are copies (very badly done) of well known Egyptian subjects of which I have dozens of examples. Secondly, they are all many centuries later than Abraham."

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie, London University

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."

James, H. Breasted, Ph.D., Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago

"The 'Book of Abraham,' it is hardly necessary to say, is a pure fabrication."

Dr. Arthur C. Mace, Assist. Curator, Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY, Dept. of Egyptian Art

"The plates contained in the 'Pearl of Great Price' are rather comical and a very poor imitation of Egyptian originals."

Dr. John Peters, Univ. of Pennsylvania

"...the explanatory notes to his facsimiles cannot be taken seriously by any scholar, as they seem to be undoubtedly the work of pure imagination."

Rev. Prof. C.A.B. Mercer, Ph.D., Western Theological Seminary, Custodian Hibbard Collection, Egyptian Reproductions.

"The Egyptian papyrus which Smith declared to be the 'Book of Abraham,' and 'translated' or explained in his fantastical way, and of which are three specimens are published in the 'Pearl of Great Price' are parts of the well known 'Book of the Dead.' Although the reproductions are very bad, one can easily recognize familiar scenes from this book."

Dr. Edward Meyer, University of Berlin

"A careful study has convinced me that Smith probably believed seriously to have deciphered the ancient hieroglyphics, but that he utterly failed. What he calls the 'Book of Abraham' is a funeral Egyptian text, probably not older than the Greek ages."

 

[bbbbbbb]

You do not understand it.

Your reply is not helpful. Please tell me exactly my misunderstanding and the correct belief according to the Four Standard Works of the LDS.

Thank you.

 

[MormonFriend]

Your reply is not helpful. Please tell me exactly my misunderstanding and the correct belief according to the Four Standard Works of the LDS.

Thank you.

Your exact misunderstanding, and do not take this in a condescending tone (please), is that the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God. Modern Christianity has perpetually divided over how the bible is to be interpreted because so many understand it differently. That demonstrates that they do not hear or listen to the same Spirit, and have divided because of it. I do not insinuate that there are not very spiritual people within, many I would do well to learn from. But nobody will say within the many denominations who is actually hearing and following the Spirit's voice in these conflicting interpretations. And if they did, they would be defined by the rest ineligible to be part of the body.

So, respectfully addressing the issue here the best I can, unless you can assure yourself that you know that you understand the bible by the Spirit of God, and declare by that knowledge any conflicting interpretations by others within the body of Christ are wrong and listen to a false spirit, if that is not the case then I would have reasonable assurance that you have not discovered this precious art of having the Spirit open your understanding of the bible. If our Standard Works truly are of God, and you ask me for " the correct belief according to the Four Standard Works of the LDS", but you use the same spirit to asses our scriptures that you use to interpret the bible, you will simply get the same results!

Don't get me wrong! I am not here with my thumbs in my ears and fingers wiggling, sticking my tongue out and saying "nanner neener". This is simple logic that the Spirit does not give conflicting truths to different people. It concerns me deeply for everyone's sake, myself included. It is obvious that I don't know everything about the scriptures, I walk by faith in most things. Nobody can know all there is to know, and there is sure to be disagreements. That is one major reason God gave the Church apostles and prophets, to sort and iron out such problems. It takes faith and humility to follow such, historically and always.

 

[drstevej]

I'm Right-You're Wrong Mysticism

Why are the FLDS wrong ??? Do they not get a testimony?

 

[MormonFriend]

I'm Right-You're Wrong Mysticism

Why are the FLDS wrong ??? Do they not get a testimony?

I try my best to avoid declaring "i'm right-You're wrong ...". I am nobody's judge. I believe I am right down to the core of my soul. I know it by the only Source that gives understanding to all of God's children. My efforts are to discuss and to show how the Spirit works with us, and also how it can be grieved and will not work with us.

The FLDS get a testimony from the Spirit/spirit they choose to obey, as does everyone. Ultimately, we all are judged by what Spirit/spirit we choose to obey. Is there a measuring stick for us to use so we can verify what Spirit/spirit we are following? Absolutely yes! Our actions, Including our sins, and our works stem from whatever or Whoever is in our hearts. That is one of the reasons God gives us good works to do. If we struggle in doing them, that struggle causes the wrong spirit to surface as it opposes our Godly efforts. If we sit idle, that spirit has no need to surface, because the idleness is accomplishing his design and purpose. If we fight against the truth, it hushes the small still voice that tells us to do those good works and temporarily anesthetizes our guilt, like alchohol makes our problems go away.

 

[Rescued One]

I try my best to avoid declaring "i'm right-You're wrong ...". I am nobody's jude. I believe I am right down to the core of my soul. I know it by the only Source that gives understanding to all of God's children. My efforts are to discuss and to show how the Spirit works with us, and also how it can be grieved and will not work with us.

The FLDS get a testimony from the Spirit/spirit they choose to obey, as does everyone. Ultimately, we all are judged by what Spirit/spirit we choose to obey. Is there a measuring stick for us to use so we can verify what Spirit/spirit we are following? Absolutely yes! Our actions, Including our sins, and our works stem from whatever or Whoever is in our hearts. That is one of the reasons God gives us good works to do. If we struggle in doing them, that struggle causes the wrong spirit to surface as it opposes our Godly efforts. If we sit idle, that spirit has no need to surface, because the idleness is accomplishing his design and purpose. If we fight against the truth, it hushes the small still voice that tells us to do those good works and temporarily anesthetizes our guilt, like alchohol makes our problems go away.

What's wrong with Jude?

P. S. Do you think the Holy Spirit gives up on people every time they sin?

 

[drstevej]

I try my best to avoid declaring "i'm right-You're wrong ...". I am nobody's jude. I believe I am right down to the core of my soul. I know it by the only Source that gives understanding to all of God's children. My efforts are to discuss and to show how the Spirit works with us, and also how it can be grieved and will not work with us.

The FLDS get a testimony from the Spirit/spirit they choose to obey, as does everyone. Ultimately, we all are judged by what Spirit/spirit we choose to obey. Is there a measuring stick for us to use so we can verify what Spirit/spirit we are following? Absolutely yes! Our actions, Including our sins, and our works stem from whatever or Whoever is in our hearts. That is one of the reasons God gives us good works to do. If we struggle in doing them, that struggle causes the wrong spirit to surface as it opposes our Godly efforts. If we sit idle, that spirit has no need to surface, because the idleness is accomplishing his design and purpose. If we fight against the truth, it hushes the small still voice that tells us to do those good works and temporarily anesthetizes our guilt, like alchohol makes our problems go away.

Yes

The Bible (Acts 17:11). Both LDS and FLDS fail this test. Joseph Smith changes the Bible in the JST to suit his views. He adds "revelation" via fraudulent representation of Egyptian papyrii.

Both and LDS and FLDS member may affirm a glowing bosom that testifies to their theologies.

I have not been sitting idle. But my efforts are not to attain, but to say thanks to the One who deserves ALL the glory!

 

[Rescued One]

I have not been sitting idle. But my efforts are not to attain, but to say thanks to the One who deserves ALL the glory!

God bless!

 

[MormonFriend]

What's wrong with Jude?

P. S. Do you think the Holy Spirit gives up on people every time they sin?

Thank you, I changed the typo.

The Holy Spirit never gives up on us. We grieve the Spirit when we rejects His efforts to turn us from sin, and we become "past feeling."

 

[MormonFriend]

...

I have not been sitting idle. But my efforts are not to attain, but to say thanks to the One who deserves ALL the glory!

"I would rather see a sermon than hear a sermon.". What do you think is the better way to express gratitude for a gift?
1. Say "thanks!"
2. Utilize that gift to the maximum potential it provides for your benifit or increase, which increase glorifies the Giver when the gift is used per design.
3. 1&2 above.

There has been intentional and perpetual puissance applied on the part of many Christians to demonstrate that LDS doctrine is a salvation by works system. Your emphasis in misinterpreting my application of using the word "attain" is an example of this grand effort. Nothing could be farther from the truth of what we believe. When we attain anything for or from God, it is only by our gratitude for the gifts He has given us, which gifts (when utilized properly) enable us to attain the things He has command of us. We show that gratitude by using it fully, and by prayerful expressions of deep gratitude for all that God has blessed us with.

Being stuck in a pool of quicksand is a helpless predicament. Having a rope thrown to us enables us to escape. Could we use that rope without a sense of grattitude? Or could we pull ourselves out and declare that we got ourselves out of that mess?

The rope of salvation is made up of many essential fibers, or spiritual principles, any one of which may be missing and the rope does not hold together. When those spiritual principles become fully imbedded in our hearts, or when we have become fully converted, the rope becomes unbreakable. We will love the things that God loves, and hate the things that God hates. Our present actions and thoughts reveal where we are in our conversion. Remember when Jesus indicated to Peter that he was not completely converted? Only when complete conversion is our disposition can we harmonize and belong to God's heavenly realm.
I am grateful for God's plan of salvation, and I give Him all glory by using His gifts (or talents).