Mormon Recruiting in an Evangelical Church

[bbbbbbb]

I guess I was not clear enough.

I do not believe that non-LDS cannot understand scripture.

I do believe that there are evidences that clearly demonstrate those who do not understand scripture. One of those evidences includes those who disagree on what scripture means, yet they acknowledge each other as being guided by the Spirit and that the Spirit is who gives them both understanding.

IOW everyone who agrees with LDS doctrine has the Spirit and those who do not agree with LDS doctrine do not have the Spirit. That seems clear enough to me.

 

[MormonFriend]

IOW everyone who agrees with LDS doctrine has the Spirit and those who do not agree with LDS doctrine do not have the Spirit. That seems clear enough to me.

In light of what I said, I am open to consider otherwise. After all, this is a discussion. But also in light of what I said, you perhaps would do well to consider that possibility.

Allow me to repost it.

"I do believe that there are evidences that clearly demonstrate those who do not understand scripture. One of those evidences includes those who disagree on what scripture means, yet they acknowledge each other as being guided by the Spirit and that the Spirit is who gives them both understanding."

 

[guerrillajane]

IOW everyone who agrees with LDS doctrine has the Spirit and those who do not agree with LDS doctrine do not have the Spirit. That seems clear enough to me.

Correction! Everyone who does righteously has the spirit, and everyone who doesn't doesn't have the spirit.

The righteous are of God, the wicked are not.

Agreeing with LDS doctrine or not is an intellectual action.
Yes, the spirit is involved in understanding the Word of God, but it is the degree for which someone has the spirit AND if they are actually trying to understand what is really true by doing comparative theology in a righteous and pure way.

A non-LDS can have more of the Spirit of God in them than an LDS.
There are many men like this. But they know and understand nothing or almost nothing of Mormonism. Some might know a good amount, but they choose otherwise, the spirit for whatever reason not teaching them. Thus, you are false to make such a judgment that we believe what you said.

Anyone who is Christian or who is of Righteousness has the spirit of God in them.
That doesn't mean their intellectual judgments are all truth.

 

[drstevej]

Correction! Everyone who does righteously has the spirit, and everyone who doesn't doesn't have the spirit.

Are you righteous completely? 90%, 70%, 50%

What's the cut off for the Spirit to reside?

 

[Rescued One]

Correction! Everyone who does righteously has the spirit, and everyone who doesn't doesn't have the spirit.

The righteous are of God, the wicked are not.

Agreeing with LDS doctrine or not is an intellectual action.
Yes, the spirit is involved in understanding the Word of God, but it is the degree for which someone has the spirit AND if they are actually trying to understand what is really true by doing comparative theology in a righteous and pure way.

A non-LDS can have more of the Spirit of God in them than an LDS.
There are many men like this. But they know and understand nothing or almost nothing of Mormonism. Some might know a good amount, but they choose otherwise, the spirit for whatever reason not teaching them. Thus, you are false to make such a judgment that we believe what you said.

Anyone who is Christian or who is of Righteousness has the spirit of God in them.
That doesn't mean their intellectual judgments are all truth.

CFR

 

[Ave Maria]

The tactics of Mormonism are very overt on many levels. That's why I think many passionate Christians here on CF try to expose this method of prophesizing so ardently to unsuspecting listeners/readers. When they knock on your door they will use Christian sounding terminology in fairly ecumenically structured teaching techniques. They will also try to draw you in by showing themselves friendly and/or neighborly that is until you "politely" inform them you are a bible believing Christian and then their efforts of friendship suspiciously become relegated to a simple nod of the head, smile or wave, but not much more. By the way this is much more prevalent in Utah where they are born and raised into this culture and they enjoy having a majority. I want to add Mormons as individuals are no better or worse people than the rest of us but IMO they have been conditioned to operate this way.

I'm personally not sure about the nodding their head thing. I am a Catholic Christian and I believe that Catholicism is the only religion which is truly Biblical. That is my beliefs. I am not trying to insult anyone. I'm just saying what I believe. I hope no one takes offense. So anyway, if a fundamentalist tells me that they are a Bible believing Christian or something I will typically say "Okay." or simply nod my head because I do not wish to give my agreement to something that I believe is false. Perhaps that is why the Mormons do that? Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Mormonism. I would never do that. I am just speculating as to why this may occur.

That said, I personally think it is distasteful to do what the Mormon did. The reason is because it comes across as the Mormon person seeming to act like he was superior to the Evangelicals. At least that is the way that it seems to me.

 

[MormonFriend]

Are you righteous completely? 90%, 70%, 50%

I don't think it quite works that way, but for discussion purpose we might try the percentage method.
If a person ever achieved complete righteousness (limited edition on the physical level of the realm we live in), included in that righteousness would be to never consider oneself fully righteous. (aka: humility) Trials that test our resolve to serve God, and none other, may fall upon us at any time we are breathing. Perhaps when a person is translated, as was Enoch, is one way we could know.

You cannot draw on percentages because as we gradually succeed in becoming Christlike our understanding becomes greater, and as a result we may become aware of more challenges or weaknesses to overcome, in light of the progress we made, that we had no idea existed before.

What's the cut off for the Spirit to reside?

Technically, the Spirit does not leave us, we leave the Spirit. But since the end results are the same, it can be viewed either way. The cut off, in my view, is when our pride rejects whatever the Spirit is currently teaching us, usually measurable in our actions of disobedience. Yet that is not tragic if the disobedient recognizes the loss of Peace and Joy, that only the Spirit can bring, and the person repents and submits his will to God on that issue that the Spirit was teaching and was before rejected. When this repentance happens, and the person is true and faithful to that light and knowledge that the Spirit gave, he is then ready to receive greater knowledge and understanding. We are again joined with the Spirit to learn, and will remain so joined as we apply to our hearts and actions what the Spirit opens to our understanding.

How many levels of understanding might this person have to go through before he has a fullness? That is a variable that no one knows but God. As I see it, and how it fits together as the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle with scripture, it depends on the amount of dross that needs to be refined from the gold, or how much pride we must be purged of. What is important is that we accept and endure the fiery trials that come our way to teach us humility, and keep our course steady in the footsteps that Jesus walked. When that is our focus, we need not think about percentages as you inquired.

 

[MormonFriend]

I'm personally not sure about the nodding their head thing. I am a Catholic Christian and I believe that Catholicism is the only religion which is truly Biblical. That is my beliefs. I am not trying to insult anyone. I'm just saying what I believe. I hope no one takes offense. So anyway, if a fundamentalist tells me that they are a Bible believing Christian or something I will typically say "Okay." or simply nod my head because I do not wish to give my agreement to something that I believe is false. Perhaps that is why the Mormons do that? Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Mormonism. I would never do that. I am just speculating as to why this may occur.

That said, I personally think it is distasteful to do what the Mormon did. The reason is because it comes across as the Mormon person seeming to act like he was superior to the Evangelicals. At least that is the way that it seems to me.

Very well stated and from the heart. I have the utmost respect for someone who knows that their faith is the only one that is truly from God, and that only one could be. Anyone who might take offense or insult only reveals their lack of the same conviction in their beliefs.

One question came to mind, if I understood your perspective. You stated you would never defend Mormonism, but would you defend Evangelicals who, from your perspective ( I assume), are apostates of Catholicism? Please correct me if I assume in error, but I have heard Catholics define Evangelicals as such.

 

[guerrillajane]

I will defend anyone from the bearing false witness of others, I don't care who they are.

Light must always stand against darkness and for truth and right in all places and all times.

 

[Norah63]

Talk about recruting, there has been more recruting for orthodox on this forum than anything else lately.
Someone starts a new thread to dig out tons of LDS material every few days. Same old over and over. And it would be just as tiresomeif it was on any faith that is considered uo.
If it is a calling one feels they have to recrute Mormons to orthodox what if it doesnt pan out?
Unethical, unkind, tiresome. Learn to forgive and move forward in faith.

 

[drstevej]

Talk about recruting, there has been more recruting for orthodox on this forum than anything else lately.

Super.....

RULE:

Proselytizing: To induce or recruit someone to convert to or join a non-Nicene religion.

Promotion: To encourage the progress, growth, or acceptance of a non-Nicene religion. Promotion includes posts which are invitational in context or give guidance in practicing a non-Nicene religion.

 

[Norah63]

Yes I read the part that stated a double standard.
Christians are not all double minded so if that makes one unorthodox, it is o.k.
We can live and move forward in faith in all circumstances.
Peace.

 

[Composer]

The Pentecostal Church accepts the Nicene Creed, whether you realise it or not.

'Simple faith in Jesus' is not sufficient, I am afraid; Moslems have 'simple faith' in Jesus, but not as the Son of God, not as Saviour, not as the Incarnation, the Word of God, the one who died for your sins and mine. The Nicene Creed summarises all of this, and more:

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do realise by claiming to be a catholic, you are admitting you are a sub-agent of Satan! (Mark 8:33) RSV Story book catholic satanic verses 1965 edition.

Your welcome!

 

[Catherineanne]

Have you ever wondered how something started from a charlatan with barking mad theology could have ever have survived the first years, let alone almost two centuries?

Not for a single moment. It happens all the time.

 

[Catherineanne]

You do realise by claiming to be a catholic, you are admitting you are a sub-agent of Satan! (Mark 8:33) RSV Story book catholic satanic verses 1965 edition.

Your welcome!

I am not a Roman Catholic. I am an Anglican.

Neither denotes being a sub agent of satan.

 

[redleghunter]

A number of years back our Singles Sunday School class had a visit form a Mormon (Ken Hightower) who did not identify himself as such. He attended a class taught by one of our singles (Stan).

After the class Ken wrote a letter [click to see the letter]to the class teacher seeking to recruit him to Mormonism. The class teacher passed the letter on to me.

Later, I arranged a meeting with this Mormon. I asked him if he had been proselytizing members of our church. He said, "Absolutely not." At that time I took his letter out of my pocket and said, "Would you like me to read you your recent letter to Stan?"

He turned beet red and apologized.

I told him that he was welcome to propagate his views off our property and outside our meetings, but if he thought we'd allow him to come to our meetings to recruit people to Mormonism, he was sadly mistaken. He apologized.

Three years later the same guy attended a Bible Study sponsored by our class and tried to do a similar thing.

====

Is it ethical to proselytize like Ken did?

Send Ken this way:

 

[nomadictheist]

Talk about recruting, there has been more recruting for orthodox on this forum than anything else lately.
Someone starts a new thread to dig out tons of LDS material every few days. Same old over and over. And it would be just as tiresomeif it was on any faith that is considered uo.
If it is a calling one feels they have to recrute Mormons to orthodox what if it doesnt pan out?
Unethical, unkind, tiresome. Learn to forgive and move forward in faith.

I believe the issue is using a false pretense to proselytize in a Bible study. I don't know about the church you go to, but at my church there are a lot of young in Christ in the Bible study.

Also, the Mormon in question didn't talk to people about his beliefs in the Bible study where the leader/teacher could correct him. He obtained the address of the leader and sent a letter to him, so that he could not be publicly corrected in front of the group of people.

Furthermore, Stan is the only person who reported having a letter sent. That doesn't mean that there weren't other letters sent.

Personally, I believe guarding the flock is commendable. People like Ken come in after weak, young Christians all the time, though they are sometimes more direct in their approach. There is a reason the Bible describes such people as "wolves" who want to devour the flock.

The lives and souls of the young in the faith are not a matter to be taken lightly.

 

[Wgw]

A number of years back our Singles Sunday School class had a visit form a Mormon (Ken Hightower) who did not identify himself as such. He attended a class taught by one of our singles (Stan).

After the class Ken wrote a letter [click to see the letter]to the class teacher seeking to recruit him to Mormonism. The class teacher passed the letter on to me.

Later, I arranged a meeting with this Mormon. I asked him if he had been proselytizing members of our church. He said, "Absolutely not." At that time I took his letter out of my pocket and said, "Would you like me to read you your recent letter to Stan?"

He turned beet red and apologized.

I told him that he was welcome to propagate his views off our property and outside our meetings, but if he thought we'd allow him to come to our meetings to recruit people to Mormonism, he was sadly mistaken. He apologized.

Three years later the same guy attended a Bible Study sponsored by our class and tried to do a similar thing.

====

Is it ethical to proselytize like Ken did?

No. This happened at my Orthodox cathedral parish a few times; ethnic Syriacs who had converted to Mormonism were sent there to evangelize. I've also first hand been annoyed by Assyrians who had converted to some non denom megachurch trying to proselytize while I was visiting a Church of the East parish.

 

[Anto9us]

fascinating...

an LDS thread after all...