Miracles, magic and superstition in the Bible.

ToBeLoved

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Great explanation except in the first part.

How did they know he was dead without sending someone up to check for their leader?
Because if they went up the mountain then they would get killed by God?
But then it means they know God is there and real and right by them where they are at the foot of that mountain.
So it means that they know that "the God who delivered them from Egypt and was in the desert with them" (my paraphrase of the calf worshipper's claims about the idol) was not the bull idol.
And why would they say that God was the bull idol if they knew it wasn't true?

The issue was not just that God left and they needed a new God (that would make some sense if they were polytheists), but rather they thought God was still there and in power and real AND that they knew it was not the bull who delivered them like they said about the bull.
I said the Israelite's though Moses was dead.

He obviously was not because he busted them with the golden calf when he came down the mountain with the 10 Commandments.

Exodus 32
32 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.

2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.
 
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rakovsky

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I said the Israelite's though Moses was dead.
Yes, but why wouldn't they go up to check on Moses if they thought he was their leader?
Maybe they had given up being in the desert and didn't want that anymore. That's reasonable.

But still, they would
know that "the God who delivered them from Egypt and was in the desert with them" (my paraphrase of the calf worshipper's claims about the idol) was not the bull idol.
And why would they say that God was the bull idol if they knew it wasn't true?

The issue was not just that God left and they needed a new God (that would make some sense if they were polytheists), but ...that they knew it was not the bull who delivered them like they said about the bull.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes, but why wouldn't they go up to check on Moses if they thought he was their leader?
Maybe they had given up being in the desert and didn't want that anymore. That's reasonable.

But still, they would
I said they could not touch the mountain or they would die. Here's the scripture

Exodus 19
11and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12"You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, 'Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13'No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.'
 
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rakovsky

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I said they could not touch the mountain or they would die.
Yes sir. So that's why I said:
Because if they went up the mountain then they would get killed by God?
But then it means they know God is there and real and right by them where they are at the foot of that mountain.
So it means that they know that "the God who delivered them from Egypt and was in the desert with them"
(my paraphrase of the calf worshipper's claims about the idol) was not the bull idol.
And why would they say that God was the bull idol if they knew it wasn't true?

The issue was not just that God left and they needed a new God (that would make some sense if they were polytheists), but rather they thought God was still there and in power and real AND that they knew it was not the bull who delivered them like they said about the bull.
 
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rakovsky

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Maybe they felt like they needed to 'see' something to them that represented God. Like the Egyptians had.
Wasn't idolatry the idea that the statue was actually God, not just a representation?
They did say about the statue "This is" the god who saved them from Egypt.

Why would they mentally need to see a metaphor so bad when it was banned by the God they believed was right there, although invisible?
It seems not rational.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Wasn't idolatry the idea that the statue was actually God, not just a representation?
They did say about the statue "This is" the god who saved them from Egypt.

Why would they mentally need to see a metaphor so bad when it was banned by the God they believed was right there, although invisible?
It seems not rational.
No. God says in His Word that we cannot make any engraven images

  1. (Exodus 20:4-5)--"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."
  2. (Leviticus 26:1)--"You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God."
  3. (Deuteronomy 5:8)--"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."
  4. (Deuteronomy 27:15)--"Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’"
 
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JackRT

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Then there is also the issue that elsewhere in the NT it says that Judas fell face/head down in the field to dying. So skeptics say that there is a major contradiction in the story, while apologists have tried to think up ways to reconcile the death accounts.

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit inMatthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testamentreferences. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
 
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rakovsky

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Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit inMatthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testamentreferences. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
Jack,

The toughest thing I think for apologists is to reconcile the two death accounts of Judas.

After that, Judas' motives are another problem, IMO. If Jesus really was doing extreme miracles like raising Lazarus, I am not sure that Judas would have betrayed, even if he were greedy. It's rational to think Judas would have, because people can surprisingly do bad things based on greed. I am very surprised that innocent people turn themselves in to cops far away when they aren't even suspects in famous cases. People who seem nice turn on their own family members for money, but it's not the same as turning on a divine being and I don't know if 30 pieces of silver would be enough. I simply am not sure enough about human psychology.

The other things you mentioned could be explained away, like "the twelve" just being a collective term or retroactively including Matthias who would, in that scheme, have been present. The Sanhedrin could have happened to have given 30 pieces to Judas (or 60 or some other number including 30) made of silver even if silver was not currency used for formal Temple purposes and accounts.

If we go down the road of Judas story being myth based vaguely on reality or some real person - a betrayer or not, I wonder if Judas' identity could have been related to Thaddeus'? If you look closely at the lists of apostles in all four gospels, I am not sure they all quite add up and match each other. Also there is the coincidence of the names Jude and Judas, which in fact are the same name just spelled differently in English.

But this is just my interesting speculation in the paragraph above. We are not even sure exactly when the gospels were written. Personally I think that Mark was probably written after Matthew based on the writings and theory of the scholar Farmer on the topic, as a scaled down version of Matthew and maybe Luke. That we can reasonably debate this shows to me how much uncertainty there is, objectively speaking, about details in the stories if we can't get the order or date narrowed down perfectly. It's one thing if Matthew's basic accounts and the story of Judas are written or told in 35 AD and passed down precisely, and another if that happened in 80 AD based on guesses, midrash, etc.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Jack,

The toughest thing I think for apologists is to reconcile the two death accounts of Judas.

After that, Judas' motives are another problem, IMO. If Jesus really was doing extreme miracles like raising Lazarus, I am not sure that Judas would have betrayed, even if he were greedy. It's rational to think Judas would have, because people can surprisingly do bad things based on greed. I am very surprised that innocent people turn themselves in to cops far away when they aren't even suspects in famous cases. People who seem nice turn on their own family members for money, but it's not the same as turning on a divine being and I don't know if 30 pieces of silver would be enough. I simply am not sure enough about human psychology.

The other things you mentioned could be explained away, like "the twelve" just being a collective term or retroactively including Matthias who would, in that scheme, have been present. The Sanhedrin could have happened to have given 30 pieces to Judas (or 60 or some other number including 30) made of silver even if silver was not currency used for formal Temple purposes and accounts.

If we go down the road of Judas story being myth based vaguely on reality or some real person - a betrayer or not, I wonder if Judas' identity could have been related to Thaddeus'? If you look closely at the lists of apostles in all four gospels, I am not sure they all quite add up and match each other. Also there is the coincidence of the names Jude and Judas, which in fact are the same name just spelled differently in English.

But this is just my interesting speculation in the paragraph above. We are not even sure exactly when the gospels were written. Personally I think that Mark was probably written after Matthew based on the writings and theory of the scholar Farmer on the topic, as a scaled down version of Matthew and maybe Luke. That we can reasonably debate this shows to me how much uncertainty there is, objectively speaking, about details in the stories if we can't get the order or date narrowed down perfectly. It's one thing if Matthew's basic accounts and the story of Judas are written or told in 35 AD and passed down precisely, and another if that happened in 80 AD based on guesses, midrash, etc.
I do not believe Judas was a myth. None of the others were, why would Judas be?
 
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rakovsky

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I do not believe Judas was a myth. None of the others were, why would Judas be?
I said "If we go down the road of Judas story being myth based vaguely on reality or some real person"
I didn't say that Judas didn't exist. I suppose that he is real, but I am skeptical about the story where heat got killed in one way and something seemingly much different happened, ie he fell headfirst. I guess it could happen, it's just odd sounding.
 
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ToBeLoved

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If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit inMatthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.
I don't know why people expect the gospels to be exact duplicates of each other. I don't see the contridictions.
 
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Taom Ben Robert

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My thread on Hell got totally derailed, which I accept responsibility for, because I wanted to address the topic of miracles and magic in the Bible. Rather than keep that thread derailing (because I'm still interested in the topic I started it for), I would like to talk about the miracles and magic here.



OK, firstly, when I read the Old Testament, I get the strong impression that the people were used to miracles and magic. This, I believe, was my main point. The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this? I would have to admit, even as an agnostic, that if I saw pillars of fire and smoke leading me every day, that there was a God. If I saw the sea parted and I walked through it, I would not be able to deny the existence of God. If I lived under a mountain of which the summit was rumbling with the voice of God, I would do my best to please that deity. Such things are irrefutable. And yet, the Israelites are rightly described by God as "playing the harlot" all too frequently.

My point is that I have trouble believing such stories of the miraculous and magical world of the Israelites. Maybe the miracles weren't that frequent, but there are enough of them in the Bible to make me believe that such occurances were, at least, regular.

You question why atheists frequently ask why such things do not occur today but you didn't give an answer.



I've never heard of this before. Where are you getting this from?

Simple answer , sinfulness, they rejected him because they wanted too
 
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