Miracles, magic and superstition in the Bible.

[Grumpy Old Man]

My thread on Hell got totally derailed, which I accept responsibility for, because I wanted to address the topic of miracles and magic in the Bible. Rather than keep that thread derailing (because I'm still interested in the topic I started it for), I would like to talk about the miracles and magic here.

That's quite a bit different from your previous statement! Here you have qualified yourself to talking exclusively about a 40-year period, perhaps a little longer. Out of a 4,000 year history BC, please notice this "golden age" represents 10%, the tithe, that "belongs to the Lord." Also please notice all these numbers were recorded (or concocted, if you prefer) before Christ was born, by people that still do not believe Jesus is Messiah. I know I know, coincidence, right?

So out of the entire history of the Jews, there was this brief moment where Israel as a whole came to take not only miracles, but G-d's Presence for granted. Very astute observation! What we should be taking away from this
is, among other things, the answer to some very demanding questions posed by atheists here lately: why G-d does not furnish any such proofs with such regularity that we can take them for granted.

Now to address magic:

there is VERY little occurrence of it anywhere in the Bible. Did you know "Pharaoh's magicians" was the same guy that was a Prophet from outside Israel, who had a donkey talk to him? Him and his sons. He was sought out by Kings at age 16; a very unusual character. I know of 2 other instances of any sort of magic, one in the OT and one in the new. Again, not at all a frequent occurrence as you suggested.

Clearly they did NOT explain sticks into snakes Even if this were later embellishment, and even if the Exodus never even happened, the rich collection of points in the text are still applicable in the daily life of the believer, today. This is why we have it!

No, we have no indication from the text any such event was common in those days. The implication is the opposite!

Miracles of God vs mishaps of nature = false dichotomy.

OK, firstly, when I read the Old Testament, I get the strong impression that the people were used to miracles and magic. This, I believe, was my main point. The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this? I would have to admit, even as an agnostic, that if I saw pillars of fire and smoke leading me every day, that there was a God. If I saw the sea parted and I walked through it, I would not be able to deny the existence of God. If I lived under a mountain of which the summit was rumbling with the voice of God, I would do my best to please that deity. Such things are irrefutable. And yet, the Israelites are rightly described by God as "playing the harlot" all too frequently.

My point is that I have trouble believing such stories of the miraculous and magical world of the Israelites. Maybe the miracles weren't that frequent, but there are enough of them in the Bible to make me believe that such occurances were, at least, regular.

You question why atheists frequently ask why such things do not occur today but you didn't give an answer.

Did you know "Pharaoh's magicians" was the same guy that was a Prophet from outside Israel, who had a donkey talk to him? Him and his sons. He was sought out by Kings at age 16; a very unusual character. I know of 2 other instances of any sort of magic, one in the OT and one in the new.

I've never heard of this before. Where are you getting this from?

 

[AlexBP]

OK, firstly, when I read the Old Testament, I get the strong impression that the people were used to miracles and magic.

I get the exact opposite impression. In Pagan literature such as the Iliad, Odyssey, or Aeneid, supernatural intrusions keep occurring right and left and none of the characters view this as being even a little bit noteworthy. The gods show up and sink ships, cause storms and earthquakes, send their voices out over the land, and so forth, and everyone behaves as if it's just another ordinary, ho-hum thing. By contrast, in both the Old and New Testaments, when people witness a miracle they are usually surprised, awed, and astounded. In other words, they react the way real people would be expected to react when witnessing a miracle.

The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this?

Because whoever wrote the relevant portion of the Bible, whether divine or human, was a shrewd observer of human nature. When people witness something remarkable they are shaken and overawed by it for a time. After some time goes past, it begins to recede into their memories, and most of them gradually abandon any new practices, behaviors, and qualities that they acquired at that remarkable moment. This is particularly true if they have to spend the intervening years doing something strenuous, such as crossing the Sinai Desert.

For the sake of comparison, think back to the days after 9/11, when many Americans were filled with a sense of patriotism, commitment to each other, willingness to make sacrifices, and so forth, owing to the huge disturbance in their lives which occurred on that day. However, over the next few years, most people wandered away from those things and returned to the lifestyle which they'd already been leading before the attacks. Despite the recent spate of articles about how the terrorist attacks "changed a nation", they are actually most notable for failing to change a nation permanently.

 

[golgotha61]

My point is that I have trouble believing such stories of the miraculous and magical world of the Israelites. Maybe the miracles weren't that frequent, but there are enough of them in the Bible to make me believe that such occurances were, at least, regular.

You question why atheists frequently ask why such things do not occur today but you didn't give an answer.

There is a miracle and fulfillment of prophecy going on in this very generation. Since 586/587 BC, when the southern kingdom of Judah was taken captive by Babylon Israel was not a sovereign nation until 1948 at the end of WWII.

The policy of making Israel a nation in 1948 and what was involved would make one understand how it was because of God's covenant with Abraham for the Promised Land but I don't have the material at hand or the space here to provide it. But aside from that, there is no other people group in the history of mankind that has been scattered, reviled, had genocide committed against, pursued to destroy, and just generally hated as the Jew and the nation of Israel, but yet they retained their identity as a nation and religion.

When Israel was given the status of a nation and land to live in, they came and are still coming as Jews and Israelis from all over the world. You want a miracle to see, here it is; you want proof God keeps promises, here it is. And yet we see Him at work in Israel and deny Him, we are not much different than the Israel of the OT who saw His miracles and yet disobeyed Him and followed other gods.

 

[golgotha61]

My thread on Hell got totally derailed, which I accept responsibility for, because I wanted to address the topic of miracles and magic in the Bible. Rather than keep that thread derailing (because I'm still interested in the topic I started it for), I would like to talk about the miracles and magic here.

OK, firstly, when I read the Old Testament, I get the strong impression that the people were used to miracles and magic. This, I believe, was my main point. The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this? I would have to admit, even as an agnostic, that if I saw pillars of fire and smoke leading me every day, that there was a God. If I saw the sea parted and I walked through it, I would not be able to deny the existence of God. If I lived under a mountain of which the summit was rumbling with the voice of God, I would do my best to please that deity. Such things are irrefutable. And yet, the Israelites are rightly described by God as "playing the harlot" all too frequently.

The people of the ancient Near East believed in the supernatural, it was their word view. They paid attention to cycles in nature and history and in order to control those cycles they made rituals to placate the gods they believed were responsible for those events. They had gods for the weather, planets, underworld, etc. and they believed that the occurrences that happened to them that could not be explained were the result of the gods. The developed rituals like human sacrifice to make the gods happy and provide calm in a natural world they did not understand.

When God entered human history through the covenant, He provided miraculous works that the culture of the ancient Near East expected to see from a god. The God of the Abrahamic covenant was different though. He offered a relationship where He gave clear cut laws and not capriciousness, He offered a direct revelation or Theophany unlike the gods of the Canaanites who never showed themselves or spoke (they weren’t real), He gave an understanding of the origin of sin and its impact on mankind, He demanded strict monotheism, He gave a highly moral and ethical code for His people to live by, and He prohibited human sacrifice.

 

[razeontherock]

When Israel was given the status of a nation and land to live in, they came and are still coming as Jews and Israelis from all over the world. You want a miracle to see, here it is; you want proof God keeps promises, here it is. And yet we see Him at work in Israel and deny Him, we are not much different than the Israel of the OT who saw His miracles and yet disobeyed Him and followed other gods.

Not only that but I am told you can see the border of Israel from the air: within it's borders, it is green. Outside it's borders, it is not. That would be not only a striking miracle, but one that sends a clear message about who the Author of Life is, exactly as the resurrection of Jesus does.

 

[razeontherock]

OK, firstly, when I read the Old Testament, I get the strong impression that the people were used to miracles and magic. This, I believe, was my main point.

Moses is accredited authorship of the first 5 books of the Bible. Regardless of when it was first written, (which I don't think it's possible was all by the same person, and I think much of the info had been in existence long before Moses)
Moses certainly was directly involved in miracles moreso than anyone else in the Bible except for Jesus Himself. He alone depicts a relationship to the supernatural consistent with what you say, and we indeed see that this was taken for granted by Israel as a whole.

I believe that is a main point of the whole Exodus story.

The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this?

Understand that what God is trying to demonstrate to us with this, is that "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart." The convictions of Israel were skin deep, as you allude to. That just isn't enough to get you through! When the going gets tough, that will wither like fresh tender grass in the desert sun. We need to "have root within ourselves," to endure, and this will be tested and proven in this lifetime. This is never simplified and clarified for us so much as Jesus' parable of the sower, beginning in Matthew 13:18.

I would have to admit, even as an agnostic, that if I saw pillars of fire and smoke leading me every day, that there was a God. If I saw the sea parted and I walked through it, I would not be able to deny the existence of God. If I lived under a mountain of which the summit was rumbling with the voice of God, I would do my best to please that deity.

While I have seen none of those things, I have seen more than enough in my life to KNOW there is a God - and much more than merely that, to know at least some very specific things about Him, of which raising Jesus from the dead is a central event that overflows with meaning and significance.

And yet in less than 10 years, the miraculous that I had seen faded into the background, and what became much more significant was understanding of His Word. Without the stories of the Exodus, I never would have been able to "make that journey" as quickly. There are many details there to guide us today!

My point is that I have trouble believing such stories of the miraculous and magical world of the Israelites.

At the risk of making my fellow believers groan, I do believe the Jefferson Bible is a great work, and it might be something you find useful.

I've never heard of this before. Where are you getting this from?

(Oh and I did give an answer to what I've seen atheists question so much recently, which is why can't God just "prove Himself" to atheists. I expounded on that a bit more in the above)

This last snippet I quoted is in response to:

"Did you know "Pharaoh's magicians" was the same guy that was a Prophet from outside Israel, who had a donkey talk to him?"

Numbers 22. Also compare the names "Balaam and Balak" to the name of the false god, baal. I think there must be something significant there about the pronunciation or some aspect of these names that adds meaning to this; of course I could be wrong.

"Him and his sons. He was sought out by Kings at age 16; a very unusual character."

This added detail is found in Jasher, which is referred to in our OT. Especially the first 20 chapters or so are very helpful to understanding this time period.

"I know of 2 other instances of any sort of magic, one in the OT and one in the new."

The witch of Endor, who Samuel had an encounter with. Samuel was seemingly around forever ... (1 Samuel 28)

Simon the Sorcerer, Acts 13

This is the grand total of ALL the mentions of magic that I'm aware of, other than Mosaic law prohibiting it's practice. Also notice that this practice seems to revolve around human contact with unclean spirits, so this is basically lumped in with prohibitions against idolatry, except it prohibits even contact that is not in any way worship.

So the bigger point here, is that many many things happened that never got recorded in Scripture. In order to deserve a mention, there must be something applicable for us today, and/or something that stands out remarkably. Also from Abraham to the final book of the OT covers a time period of roughly 1100 years, so miracles weren't common at all! To understand what is being said, this is the question we must ask - "how can I apply this?" With a pure heart before the Lord, I find He will address that inquiry readily.

 

[nubs]

Not only that but I am told you can see the border of Israel from the air: within it's borders, it is green. Outside it's borders, it is not. That would be not only a striking miracle, but one that sends a clear message about who the Author of Life is, exactly as the resurrection of Jesus does.

Are you saying it rains within the man-made boarders of Israel but not outside them? You do know that Israel has more money than their outside neighbors due to US aide as well as just being oil rich. If this is true it is not because it rains only within the boarders but because of advanced agriculture.

Israel's boarders right now are not the same as they were in the Old Testament.

Also, I'm sure the Israelis would rather have their country be completely desert with only oil underneath rather than green. Green doesn't mean anything in this world compared to oil.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Not only that but I am told you can see the border of Israel from the air: within it's borders, it is green. Outside it's borders, it is not. That would be not only a striking miracle, but one that sends a clear message about who the Author of Life is, exactly as the resurrection of Jesus does.

I'm sure you can see how lovely and green the UK is from the air. Seriously, it means nothing. Israel has a large river going through it (the Jordan), so it's bound to look lush and fertile. Similarly, the Nile must look great from space. All that desert yet nearer the Nile the land is verdant and fertile.

On the downside, Israel is small and mountainous. There are better places in the world that God could have given to the Hebrews.

 

[razeontherock]

it means nothing.

You say the same thing about the resurrection of Christ

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You say the same thing about the resurrection of Christ

If Jesus actually rose from the dead it would mean something. As it is, the only documents we have about his "resurrection" just don't give me sufficient cause to believe he did rise from the dead. Many atheists don't even believe Jesus actually existed. I think he probably did exist at some point; however, I believe many of the stories about him in the Gospels are exaggerated. Again, it goes back to magic and miracles. How can we be sure any of the things described in the Bible actually did happen?

 

[razeontherock]

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27)

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27)

I hope I get a £1 million by the end of the day. Statistically speaking, this is not likely to happen. What's the difference between your hope and mine?

 

[GA777]

If Jesus actually rose from the dead it would mean something. As it is, the only documents we have about his "resurrection" just don't give me sufficient cause to believe he did rise from the dead. Many atheists don't even believe Jesus actually existed. I think he probably did exist at some point; however, I believe many of the stories about him in the Gospels are exaggerated. Again, it goes back to magic and miracles. How can we be sure any of the things described in the Bible actually did happen?

If the stories about miracles are exaggerated,then why would countless of believers in false Gods , who were always stubborn about their beliefs convert to christianity that fast,and prefered to be tortured their whole lives and die a brutal death than to have their faith weakened a little bit?They must have been seen something to have such faith and to convert.Same goes for the disciples,they would never want to be persecuted and tortured and killed for preaching a lie,if they hadnt experienced countless things with Jesus.
And there are miracles happening now too from time to time anyways, I know (not believe) of around 3-4 miracles which happened in the last 20 years,and they happened after seeking-promises to God-praying for many months and months.But I cant prove any of this,tho. I am pretty sure you heard about psychics who can predict etc.,and that itself is something supernatural,and can be proven through the internet.

Many claim to see angels or demons every now and then,and if people were crazy,then why are all people always seeing many common things,and they see spirits,instead of seeing monsters or animals (this happens but is a much rarer case),and many converted because of this.

And about the NDES (near death experience),there are many of them,who always had very common experiences during death and saw hell/heaven/jesus/angels/demons ..
There are buddhists who had ndes too , yes.But the numbers of their ndes are very rare,and dont share common things.So they cant be true.

There are for example many satanists,and many of them claim they had supernatural experiences etc. and talk about magic and demons experiences with each other (on some forums) etc. and it is obvious that they are not hallucinating for countless of reasons...

Also,there are a lot here who wrote about their experiences on CF,like hearing some voices in their heads which tell them to do something , and then 50 secs later , an accident happens which would have killed the person if it was not for the audible voice's advice.

Deuteronomy : 4:29

New Living Translation (©2007)
But from there you will search again for the LORD your God. And if you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him.

If you do that,you'll find him,and the most effective way can be praying from your heart and ask the holy spirit while praying to fill you,and you must have some great feeling of joy while doing that (at least I know many who experienced that,and I personally know 2 ex-atheists,who prayed for the 1st time from all their heart and felt an undescribable joy.But the problem is that many wouldnt do this because they cant do it from the heart if they want to pray to someone they dont believe in.

My 2 cents.

 

[rakovsky]

The manner and quickness with which the Israelites abandoned a seemingly powerful God for other gods, described with great frequency in the Bible, is astounding. These people had witnessed mighty acts of God, and yet they can turn away from him so easily. Why is this?
I would have to admit, even as an agnostic, that if I saw pillars of fire and smoke leading me every day, that there was a God. If I saw the sea parted and I walked through it, I would not be able to deny the existence of God. If I lived under a mountain of which the summit was rumbling with the voice of God, I would do my best to please that deity. Such things are irrefutable. And yet, the Israelites are rightly described by God as "playing the harlot" all too frequently.

I think that this is a great question, GOM.

The problem with using this as proof is that you are trying to make a psychological argument, or at least to understand their actions resulting from their psychology. It's not the same as going back in time and seeing it yourself.

There are plenty of people who, if you show them how much better and important it is to lead a good life instead of getting hooked on drugs will go back to using drugs again. A teacher can give a rule, and students might even respect the teacher as their authority, but they might not follow the rules.

If Israelites were used to worshiping calves, then even if they saw the pillar of fire on the hill, they might not obey it. Maybe they thought that the pillar was a volcano top. Maybe only some of them heard the voice. Maybe the parting of the sea was not as miraculous as it sounds. Maybe they thought that God was real, but they were personally OK with polytheism just like the Hindus are who think Brahman is their main God.

So I think you are making a great point, but to prove it 100%, we would have to go back in time.

 

[aiki]

Necro-thread!

 

[Radrook]

The premise that people disobey because they don't believe in God is flawed.
The Devil and his demons saw God face to face and disobey anyway.
The disobedient Israelites weren't disobeying because they didn't believe in the existence of God.
They were disobeying because they didn't like his policies and wanted to do as they pleased.
The same reason why Adam and Eve, Cain, and Nimrod, disobeyed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Magic and miracles are two different things from a Biblical perspective.

Miracles are from the power of God. Either God Himself performing a miracle or God performing a miracle through a prophet or follower.

Exodus 14:21
And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Magic on the other hand is not from God. It is either a demon or negative entity or a trick.

This is what God says about magic, ect in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 18:9-12
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

So God is very,, very clear about magic and things. Abomination is a very strong word.

 

[rakovsky]

The premise that people disobey because they don't believe in God is flawed.
The Devil and his demons saw God face to face and disobey anyway.
The disobedient Israelites weren't disobeying because they didn't believe in the existence of God.
They were disobeying because they didn't like his policies and wanted to do as they pleased.
The same reason why Adam and Eve, Cain, and Nimrod, disobeyed.

He is making a psychological argument though that in this case it wouldn't happen. A person is not a demon, and has a sense of realism. A person can disobey from temptation like drugs, but there is not a temptation to say that a bull led them from Egypt if God was in a miracle cloud and fire and if they did believe in God. In other words, the temptation to make a bull idol is one that reflects a lack of faith by humans.

You would have to say that their temptation to idolize was greater than their belief that Moses got his orders from God. Maybe they had faith in God, but they lacked faith in Moses getting the 10 commandments from God and so they thought it was ok to idolize.

It's like asking why the tomb guards would lie about the apostles if they were scared into paralyzation by the angel and thereby knew Jesus was God. It's a psychological objection the OP is making.

 

[Radrook]

He is making a psychological argument though that in this case it wouldn't happen. A person is not a demon, and has a sense of realism. A person can disobey from temptation like drugs, but there is not a temptation to say that a bull led them from Egypt if God was in a miracle cloud and fire and if they did believe in God. In other words, the temptation to make a bull idol is one that reflects a lack of faith by humans.

You would have to say that their temptation to idolize was greater than their belief that Moses got his orders from God. Maybe they had faith in God, but they lacked faith in Moses getting the 10 commandments from God and so they thought it was ok to idolize.

It's like asking why the tomb guards would lie about the apostles if they were scared into paralyzation by the angel and thereby knew Jesus was God. It's a psychological objection the OP is making.

Response:

Thanks for the explanation but I am really not confused about what the issue being discussed entails. It entails the unlikelihood of those who knew that the bull idol wasn't the true God worshiping such an idol especially after having beheld all the miracles performed in Egypt.

Before I address that, let me first respond to your claim that those spirit creatures who rebelled against God were irrational demons. That isn't true. The ones who decided to rebel were holy angels who had seen God face to face and who had all their mental faculties intact and not insane irrational demons.

Notice that these spirit creatures had personally witnessed far greater miracles than the Israelites had beheld. They had seen the creation of the Earth and perhaps of the entire universe itself. The book of Job tells us that they celebrated when God finished what is described in Genesis.

Job 38: 7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


So if indeed beholding miracles prevents unfaithfulness then they are an excellent example of just the opposite. They placed their desire above what they knew was right.

We also have Judas Iscariot beholding all the miracles, including the curing of lame and lepers and the resurrection of the dead, performed by Jesus and it didn’t faze him one bit from setting up money as an idol.

John 12:

5"Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?" 6Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.

We have David who believed in God and yet took another man’s wife and murdered her husband. Why? Because he set up lust as an idol.

David Murders Uriah
2 Samuel NIV

11 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.

2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”....

14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”


Solomon was a rational human being and yet sinned against God by building places of idolatrous false worship for his concubines because it represented a means to a strongly-desired end.

1 Kings 11:7 ►
N I V
On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites.

Then you have modern-day atheists who see the miracle of life all around, DNA, Nano molecular machines in our cells, the Fibonacci Sequence and because they want to do what they want ignore it and set up the idols of abiogenesis and evolution. I see absolutely no difference between the twain.


There are other kinds of temptations.

The temptation to be free to do as one pleases.

Such a temptation can lead persons to do what they know is wrong in order to attain it.
The Bible tells us that Adam was NOT deceived but sinned anyway. Obviously he was being tempted by SOMETHING despite his knowledge that he had been created and owed the creator respect and appreciation. In effect, despite all that they had beheld they still opted to place the word of what seemed to be a lower animal above God’s. Had it been a bull it would have made no difference. It just represented a means to an end and they took it.

James 1: 14

But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.…


The same holds true for the Israelites.

BTW
About the Roman guards not describing what they had beheld? That could be explained by the fear they must have felt at being identified as followers of Jesus. The Apostle Peter had experienced that fear and had denied Jesus even though he had witnessed all the miracles. So why expect more from Roman guards who had NOTHING to gain from reporting such an event except ridicule and disciplinary retribution?

Luke 22:54-60(ESV)
Peter Denies Jesus
54 Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest's house, and Peter was following at a distance. 55 And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat down among them. 56 Then a servant girl, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it, saying, “Woman, I do not know him.” 58 And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Peter said, “Man, I am not.” 59 And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is a Galilean.” 60 But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are talking about.”

 

[rakovsky]

Response:

Thanks for the explanation but I am really not confused about what the issue being discussed entails. It entails the unlikelihood of those who knew that the bull idol wasn't the true God worshiping such an idol especially after having beheld all the miracles performed in Egypt.

Before I address that, let me first respond to your claim that those spirit creatures who rebelled against God were irrational demons. That isn't true. The ones who decided to rebel were holy angels who had seen God face to face and who had all their mental faculties intact and not insane irrational demons.

Notice that these spirit creatures had personally witnessed far greater miracles than the Israelites had beheld. They had seen the creation of the Earth and perhaps of the entire universe itself. The book of Job tells us that they celebrated when God finished what is described in Genesis. So if indeed beholding miracles prevents unfaithfulness then they are an excellent example of just the opposite. They placed their desire above what they knew was right.

We also have Judas Iscariot beholding all the miracles, including the curing of lame and lepers and the resurrection of the dead, performed by Jesus and it didn’t faze him one bit from setting up money as an idol.

We have David who believed in God and yet took another man’s wife and murdered her husband. Why? Because he set up lust as an idol.

Solomon was a rational human being and yet sinned against God by building places of idolatrous false worship for his concubines because it represented a means to a strongly-desired end.

Then you have modern-day atheists who see the miracle of life all around, DNA, Nano molecular machines in our cells, the Fibonacci Sequence and because they want to do what they want ignore it and set up the idols of abiogenesis and evolution. I see absolutely no difference between the twain.


There are other kinds of temptations.

The temptation to be free to do as one pleases.

Such a temptation can lead persons to do what they know is wrong in order to attain it.
The Bible tells us that Adam was NOT deceived but sinned anyway. Obviously he was being tempted by SOMETHING despite his knowledge that he had been created and owed the creator respect and appreciation. In effect, despite all that they had beheld they still opted to place the word of what seemed to be a lower animal above God’s. Had it been a bull it would have made no difference. It just represented a means to an end and they took it.

The same holds true for the Israelites.

It's an argument about human psychology, so it is not a fool-proof argument. There are fools who do irrational things, like turn them in to police when they are definitely innocent and the police never considered them suspects in the first place.

But still, it looks like a good objection for me. It's one thing to say that a person has a temptation to sin and use drugs that make him feel amazingly great, and another to say that a normal human person who knows 100% that a certain religious teaching is correct and that God exists will teach the opposite with no apparent benefit.

I don't remember the Bible saying that the Israelites believed that Moses got the tablets from God. God was up on the mountain and scared the Israelites with his fire and thunder there, and then Moses went up and got the Torah, so I would think that they did. So it does not make sense that they would make a golden calf and say that the calf led them from Egypt, if in fact the story was real and everyone knew that a golden calf did not lead them from Egypt and that making idols was banned by the God who was at that time impressing them with thunder and fire. There is no benefit to making a golden calf and worshiping it, but there is an extreme downside for doing so in this case, and so a mass of people impressed with God and knowing 100% that he was real would not realistically do this, unless they were psychotic.

Feel free to disagree, because there are psychotic people out there. It's not a perfect argument, just a good one, it looks to me anyway.