Metropolitan Kallistos, David Bentley Hart, Universalism, and the Church of the East

[Light of the East]

saints are saints in spite of their sins which we must always remember. there was a lot of bad blood between the two sides at the time.

Father, so what you are saying is that being a saint has more to do with having 100% correct dogma than the actual behavior of the person?

 

[ArmyMatt]

You lost the train of thought that I was presenting. My issue was that the condemnation of Origen was part of Justinian's desire to unite the empire under one theology. I'm singling out Justinian because for him in particular, that was the issue. It was not necessarily the same for the other councils.

except that he had already been condemned by synods and earlier Fathers. so yeah, St Justinian along with many before him to deal with this heresy that continued to divide folks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, so what you are saying is that being a saint has more to do with having 100% correct dogma than the actual behavior of the person?

nope, I have not said that ever on here, and am not saying it now.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It would certainly have been nice if this was the prevalent attitude towards Augustine and his theological novums which he introduced and which were accepted carte blanche by the Church without so much as a council called to question some of his bizarre and unOrthodox ideas, such as each man bearing the guilt of Adam's original sin.

they weren’t. and original guilt was found in earlier guys like Tertullian and Ambrosiaster.

The consensus of the Church appears to be, from historical record, that Universalism was the predominant teaching of the Church, being taught in four theological schools before Augustine started his attack on the teaching. Indeed, we find that at one time in his life, Augustine embraced the teaching himself. Only the theological school at Rome taught Eternal Conscious Torment, and it is odd that the East so easily gave in to Roman Catholic views of salvation, eschatology, anthropology, and the Gospel.

not true.

No, it springs from some of us actually studying the Bible and realizing that the concept of hell came from Roman Catholicism and wretched Latin mistranslations of the Greek which were, for some bizarre reason, accepted by the East. The problem with modern Christianity is that we read bad translations, accept that they are correct, and are too busy to do our due diligence and dig into the Greek and Christian history and see where this idea of a place called "hell" and eternal torment actually came from.

also not true.

So let me ask you this, because I need to understand the Orthodox teaching on this: is theosis the same as salvation? Maybe Fr. Matt could help me out with this. I don't see it that way, but there is a lot I have to learn.

yes, it is.

BTW - This IS one of my pet peeves with those who are teaching Apokatastasis. David Bentley Hart did an interview for the NY Times regarding Universal Salvation, and neither in that article, nor anything he wrote do I see the warnings that Jesus and St. Paul gave regarding the suffering that the wicked will experience as they are cleansed from their sins. It is dishonest to let people think that Universal Salvation somehow means that those who do not conquer their passions in this life are somehow going to be exempt from pain, some of it quite severe, in the next age as they are brought face to face with He who is Truth and the wickedness they have indulged themselves in. In my book on Apokatastasis, the last chapter is exactly this - a very serious and stern warning that those who engage in sin will face the pain of Christ's chastening in the next life, and it ain't gonna be fun!

so, why then would it be better for Judas to have never been born? not simply a warning that he’s gonna go through horrible experience before ultimate eternal bliss, but that non-existence is better than what awaited Judas?

 

[gzt]

Father, so what you are saying is that being a saint has more to do with having 100% correct dogma than the actual behavior of the person?

saints can be saints in spite of their opinions, as well. saints disagree all the time!

 

[Light of the East]

saints can be saints in spite of their opinions, as well. saints disagree all the time!

I didn't say anything about their behavior. I spoke about some saints whose behavior appears to be less than saintly.

 

[ArmyMatt]

saints can be saints in spite of their opinions, as well. saints disagree all the time!

and sometimes they appear to disagree, even argue with each other, and the Church determines they were actually saying the same thing.

 

[Euthymios]

Kallistos Ware was not an Orthodox Christian. True Christians believe in Scripture and the teaching of Christ. Universalism is an attack on the authority of Christ (who specifically taught eternal punishment) and the authority of Scripture (which specifically teaches eternal punishment). Kallistos Ware also believed in Theistic Evolution (contrary to the Holy Fathers and Scripture), and supported the ordination of women (contrary to Tradition). He was a Modernist.
Bentley Hart also is not Orthodox. He is a universalist, supports the ordination of women, and rejects the patristic teaching of the aerial toll-houses.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Bentley Hart also is not Orthodox. He is a universalist, supports the ordination of women, and rejects the patristic teaching of the aerial toll-houses.

he’s also a Marcionist.

 

[prodromos]

Kallistos Ware was not an Orthodox Christian.

Bishop Kallistos Ware certainly was an Orthodox Christian. Some of his ideas were a bit off but that is nothing unusual in the Church. He also did not support the ordination of women. What he encouraged was for the question to be discussed so that a clear theological response could be presented instead of just, "its Holy Tradition".

 

[Euthymios]

Bishop Kallistos Ware certainly was an Orthodox Christian. Some of his ideas were a bit off but that is nothing unusual in the Church. He also did not support the ordination of women. What he encouraged was for the question to be discussed so that a clear theological response could be presented instead of just, "its Holy Tradition".

He was only Orthodox in appearance. He was a Modernist. It's actually a Modernist attitude to believe that Orthodox Christians can be off on some ideas. To be truly Orthodox means we accept all of Orthodox Tradition. Kallistos rejected massive amounts of the Tradition.

I forgot to mention that Kallistos held to the Vatican II heresy that sincere people in non-Christian religions can be saved.
He wrote:

"We believe, as Christians, that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world, but we also believe that the light of Christ shines in the hearts of every human person. And if those who are not Christians live by the best that they know in their own tradition, I am fully confident that God will receive them, as I hope God will receive us Christians in His mercy." (Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East," p. 265).

My source for his view that women can be ordained is, "Women and the Priesthood", St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood, New York, 1999, pp. 1 and 7.

 

[Euthymios]

The Theistic Evolution issue alone completely puts Kallistos Ware outside the Orthodox faith. To be Orthodox is to be biblical and patristic. None of the Church Fathers believed in Theistic Evolution.

 

[prodromos]

He was only Orthodox in appearance. He was a Modernist. It's actually a Modernist attitude to believe that Orthodox Christians can be off on some ideas. To be truly Orthodox means we accept all of Orthodox Tradition. Kallistos rejected massive amounts of the Tradition.

I forgot to mention that Kallistos held to the Vatican II heresy that sincere people in non-Christian religions can be saved.
He wrote:

"We believe, as Christians, that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world, but we also believe that the light of Christ shines in the hearts of every human person. And if those who are not Christians live by the best that they know in their own tradition, I am fully confident that God will receive them, as I hope God will receive us Christians in His mercy." (Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East," p. 265).

My source for his view that women can be ordained is, "Women and the Priesthood", St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood, New York, 1999, pp. 1 and 7.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if the Church has not seen fit to cast him outside of the Orthodox communion then he is still recognised as a bishop and should be addressed as such. Even Nestorius was given that dignity until the Church ruled against him.

We've already had enough trouble with a few of our members who refuse to address Fr Peter Heers by his priestly title. Your attitude gives them justification.

 

[Euthymios]

You are entitled to your opinion, but if the Church has not seen fit to cast him outside of the Orthodox communion then he is still recognised as a bishop and should be addressed as such. Even Nestorius was given that dignity until the Church ruled against him.

We've already had enough trouble with a few of our members who refuse to address Fr Peter Heers by his priestly title. Your attitude gives them justification.

The modern Orthodox Church is being run by ecumenists and modernists (and it wouldn't surprise me if also by Freemasons), so the delay on condemning Kallistos Ware doesn't surprise me. St. Paul said heretics are self-condemned. (Titus 3:11). They don't need formal condemnation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The modern Orthodox Church is being run by ecumenists and modernists (and it wouldn't surprise me if also by Freemasons), so the delay on condemning Kallistos Ware doesn't surprise me. St. Paul said heretics are self-condemned. (Titus 3:11). They don't need formal condemnation.

they are self condemned, but until the Church reveals someone as a condemned heretic, it’s not for us to assert.

and the “delay” doesn’t necessarily point to any sense of modernism (although it could).

 

[Euthymios]

they are self condemned, but until the Church reveals someone as a condemned heretic, it’s not for us to assert.

and the “delay” doesn’t necessarily point to any sense of modernism (although it could).

St. Paul instructed the laity to mark those who cause divisions contrary to the doctrines we have received and avoid them. (Rom. 16:17).

St. Meletios of Antioch: "Do not show obedience to bishops who exhort you to do and to say and to believe in things which are not to your benefit. What pious man would hold his tongue? Who would remain completely calm? In fact, silence equates to consent."

 

[ArmyMatt]

St. Paul instructed the laity to mark those who cause divisions contrary to the doctrines we have received and avoid them. (Rom. 16:17).

St. Meletios of Antioch: "Do not show obedience to bishops who exhort you to do and to say and to believe in things which are not to your benefit. What pious man would hold his tongue? Who would remain completely calm? In fact, silence equates to consent."

I don’t see how these contradict what I said.

 

[prodromos]

St. Meletios of Antioch: "Do not show obedience to bishops who exhort you to do and to say and to believe in things which are not to your benefit. What pious man would hold his tongue? Who would remain completely calm? In fact, silence equates to consent."

Bishop Kallistos exhorted no one.

 

[Light of the East]

Kallistos Ware was not an Orthodox Christian. True Christians believe in Scripture and the teaching of Christ. Universalism is an attack on the authority of Christ (who specifically taught eternal punishment)

He specifically DID NOT. You are reading corrupted Roman Catholic translations of the Sacred Scriptures which are not properly translated from the Greek. The translations of the Western Bibles are atrocious!!!

Greek αἰών (aion) means "age" or. It does not mean "world" as so badly translated in the KJV and Douay-Rheims. This mistranslation has led to the idiot doctrine of the Pretribulation "Rapture" of the Church and all the nonsense that goes with it.

Greek αἰώνιον (aionios) does not mean "everlasting" or "eternal" as equally badly translated in the same Bibles. It means "age-lasting." This is not my opinion. This is what Greek scholars such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli and others have taught.

Greek κόλασιν (kolasis) does not mean punishment. It means "chastening" or "correction." Thus, Matthew 25:46, one of the favorite verses used to try to prove eternal damnation, should actually read like this to be true to the original language:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away to correction age-lasting, but the righteous to life age-lasting.

Jesus was speaking in Matthew 23-25 of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70 and the age which would follow it. He was promising that the righteous would enjoy life which would not be shortened or ended, but would last for the age which would come with the destruction of the Temple. Likewise, the correction of the wicked would also last for the entire age to come.

Proper translation is very, VERY important. The Roman Church translators A.) did not know Greek [Augustine said he hated the language, yet that didn't stop him from translating it as he made commentary on certain passages of the Bible. I call that hubris!] B.) had an agenda, which began with Augustine and was put on steriods with Justinian. That agenda was that everything that looks like punishment in the Bible MUST mean there is a hell. C.) followed the lead of those who came before them rather than investigate the translations for accuracy.

Bentley Hart also is not Orthodox. He is a universalist, supports the ordination of women, and rejects the patristic teaching of the aerial toll-houses.

The Toll-houses are not found in Scripture nor in any writing of any council. Those two, plus the Creed, hold me to absolute obedience. Folk tales which were most likely brought in from non-Christian sources and gained a foothold, do not! The Fathers of the Church are not infallible. If they were, Arianism would have died on the vine rather than almost take over the whole of the Church.

And regardless of your feelings about him, I would be circumspect as to how I refer to a bishop in the Church. He will answer to Christ, not to you or me. We should be praying for his soul!

BTW - In no council did any of the Fathers condemn as heretics St. Gregory Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Clement, the Cappadocians, St. Macarina, and a host of others for their teaching of Apokatastasis.

I have a HOPE in it, and I feel it it a good hope, based on Scripture, Patristics, and Philosophy (i.e. philosophical discussions of God and His character and anthropological realities).

While I do not at all agree with Dr. Hart's opinion regarding the ordination of women, and his Marcionist tendencies, I do wonder if you have read his book, THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED, and if so, have written a rebuttal of his four meditations which are found therein. Your objections would carry more weight if you did present a written rebuttal to what he said, rather than just saying that he is wrong and then walking away.

 

[Light of the East]

He was only Orthodox in appearance. He was a Modernist. It's actually a Modernist attitude to believe that Orthodox Christians can be off on some ideas. To be truly Orthodox means we accept all of Orthodox Tradition. Kallistos rejected massive amounts of the Tradition.

I forgot to mention that Kallistos held to the Vatican II heresy that sincere people in non-Christian religions can be saved.
He wrote:

"We believe, as Christians, that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world, but we also believe that the light of Christ shines in the hearts of every human person. And if those who are not Christians live by the best that they know in their own tradition, I am fully confident that God will receive them, as I hope God will receive us Christians in His mercy." (Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East," p. 265).

My source for his view that women can be ordained is, "Women and the Priesthood", St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood, New York, 1999, pp. 1 and 7.

When I read your posts, I swear that I get a whiff of recent convert fever, with a dash of fundamentalism.

BTW - St. Paul also said that non-Christians may be saved. (Romans 2: 13-16).