rusmeister

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So what you are saying is that proper translation of the Sacred Scriptures is . . . meaaaaah . . . not all that important?

Look, this is not the only place in the Scriptures where the Latin translators did an atrocious job of translation. Let me give you a couple of examples, just so you won't accuse me the way you are accusing Hart.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Except that the word translated "world" is the Greek word "aion" which means "age." Why is this important? Because people have read this atrocious (yeah, I really, really don't like it!) translation and come up with the idea that Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking about the end of all things . . . i.e. the end of the world as we know it. This led to the incredibly stupid idea of a "Rapture of the Church" and you have Protestant nutjobs like John Hagee running around claiming that "Jaaaaaayzuz is coming any second now." Which may be true, but not in the context in which he is speaking, where you will have Israel restored, the animal sacrifices restored (an insult to the Blood of Christ . . . good grief, do these people even THINK????) and the who end times prophecy craziness abounding on the Internet.

Lest you think I have it in only for Protestants and the KJV Bible they bow down and worship every night, let's look at similar nonsense from the Douay-Rheims.

Matthew 3:2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Nope. The Greek word is "metanoeo" which simply means a change of mind. It does not mean beating yourself with belts, hairshirts, and other forms of self-abuse which go along with penance.

From Strong's online: μετανοέω metanoeō
  1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
  2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Why get all hot and bothered about all this? Because . . . words mean things!! Using the wrong word can send a person off into the weeds looking for snipes that don't exist. I think DBH has every right to be incensed. I'm incensed . . . especially at people who don't listen to FACTS and just cannot let go of their beloved pet agendas, such as the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, which comes from a bad understanding of Matthew 16.
I agree with you in general on words. You don’t need to sell that angle to me. However, you’re talking as if there were no Holy Spirit to guide the Church over all this time, as if it were exclusively up to us fallible humans to get the texts of fallen languages right, and that we’re doomed to error if we don’t. I don’t think that is the case.

I think that the Holy Spirit has guided the fathers of the Church, when they submitted themselves to correction, to rightly interpret these admittedly imperfect, yet nevertheless Holy, Scriptures. The important thing is not so much our exegesis of ancient texts and languages, as it is submission to the consensus of the fathers about how we ought to understand them. Not so much depends on our own wisdom and knowledge. Trust the fathers, where they agreed.
 
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The Liturgist

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So what you are saying is that proper translation of the Sacred Scriptures is . . . meaaaaah . . . not all that important?

Look, this is not the only place in the Scriptures where the Latin translators did an atrocious job of translation. Let me give you a couple of examples, just so you won't accuse me the way you are accusing Hart.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Except that the word translated "world" is the Greek word "aion" which means "age." Why is this important? Because people have read this atrocious (yeah, I really, really don't like it!) translation and come up with the idea that Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking about the end of all things . . . i.e. the end of the world as we know it. This led to the incredibly stupid idea of a "Rapture of the Church" and you have Protestant nutjobs like John Hagee running around claiming that "Jaaaaaayzuz is coming any second now." Which may be true, but not in the context in which he is speaking, where you will have Israel restored, the animal sacrifices restored (an insult to the Blood of Christ . . . good grief, do these people even THINK????) and the who end times prophecy craziness abounding on the Internet.

Lest you think I have it in only for Protestants and the KJV Bible they bow down and worship every night, let's look at similar nonsense from the Douay-Rheims.

Matthew 3:2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Nope. The Greek word is "metanoeo" which simply means a change of mind. It does not mean beating yourself with belts, hairshirts, and other forms of self-abuse which go along with penance.

From Strong's online: μετανοέω metanoeō
  1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
  2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Why get all hot and bothered about all this? Because . . . words mean things!! Using the wrong word can send a person off into the weeds looking for snipes that don't exist. I think DBH has every right to be incensed. I'm incensed . . . especially at people who don't listen to FACTS and just cannot let go of their beloved pet agendas, such as the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, which comes from a bad understanding of Matthew 16.

Also, one other thing: bearing in mind the KJV is not a perfect translation, it is the case that the KJV and the NKJV are the preferred bibles of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the English speaking world. The Orthodox Study Bible uses the NKJV for its New Testament text due to its close proximity to the Byzantine text.

Also I would argue that comparing the Douai Rheims to the original Greek is a bit problematic because the Challoner Douai Rheims is a translation of the Latin Vulgate, and it is my desire to have a word-for-word translation of the Vulgate that is as accurate as possible as a literal translation in order to provide insights into Latin Christianity. Likewise, the English translations of the Syriac Peshitta, my favorite of which is the Murdoch New Testament, but I also love that of Etheridge, are extremely valuable. I wish someone would do a literal word for word translation of the Ethiopian Bible from Ge’ez to English, and one of the Classical Armenian Bible, and one of the Classical Georgian Bible, as these would provide fascinating insights, as unfortunately not everyone is of such a skill at languages as to be able to acquire all of the languages useful for theological study (Latin being challenging, Greek and Aramaic progressively challenging, Hebrew as challenging as Aramaic but also limited to the Old Testament in terms of usefulness, and the problem there is the Masoretic Text disagrees with the Septuagint in ways which for the most part weaken Christological prophecies, and its Psalter is not aligned to the Septuagint Psalter, whereas the Douai Rheims is, so the Douai Rheims along with the recent Eastern Orthodox King David Psalter, which is an adaptation of the KJV Psalms to Septuagint versification that was released into the public domain, are, together with the 18th century Septuagint translation by Sir Lancelot Brenton, are the only public domain versions of the Septuagint Psalter available (I would note that the Masoretic Psalter does however preserve a Christological reference in Psalm 1 vs. 12 which is less obvious in the Septuagint, and the KJV’s Masoretic-based translation of Psalm 23 is exquisite, but in general I prefer the Coverdale Psalter and its Orthodox, Septugaint-versified derivative, the Jordanville Psalter (A Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York), although if I were mainly Greek Orthodox or Antiochian Orthodox instead of mainly OCA and ROCOR, I would probably want the Boston Psalter from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, as their service books are optimized for Byzantine Chant.*

*I would note that increasingly, when it comes to liturgical music resources, St. Anthony’s Monastery in Florence, Arizona, has been doing very excellent work; both Elder Ephraim, memory eternal, and the sadly disagraced homosexual Elder Panteleimon who founded Holy Transfiguration Monastery, and then who left ROCOR along with the Greek speaking parishes and formed HOCNA basically to stop a ROCOR investigation into what turned out to be true allegations of him sexually harassing novice monks, were both spiritual sons of Elder Joseph the Hesychast; unfortunately Elder Panteleimon was unable to control his lust, whereas Elder Ephraim was a really blessed monk, and meeting him was one of the more profound Christian experiences of my life - we were able to communicate without using words, in silence, without sharing a language, and I am inclined to believe this is what speaking in tongues actually is.

I was at St. Anthony’s with my elderly mother, and it was our first day there, and I fell asleep, missed dinner, and slept until the Semantron, or or sounding board, for the midnight divine liturgy, went off, and I had no idea where she was, and was worried, but encountering him when I mistakenly entered his office while trying to find her before the liturgy, but he communicated to me who he was, his love for me, his love for my mother, and that she was alright and already in the liturgy, with just his eyes and by gesturing at a snowglobe of Mount Athos. It was truly a precious spiritual moment. I was also blessed on that trip to be able to venerate the skull of Elder Joseph the Hesychast. The work they are doing liturgically is very important, because I dislike the fact that, for example, with the Pentecostarion, both of the main English language editions are from Old Calendarist jurisdictions (one is from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, which is part of HOCNA, and the other is from St. John of Kronstadt Press, which is part of the churches that broke away from ROCOR after the reunification of ROCOR with the Moscow Patriarchate and the end of ROCOR’s decades long experience of isolation from the rest of canonical Orthodoxy. Also the traditionalism of St. Anthony’s helps compensate for liberal clergy in GoArch, and prevents more Greek Orthodox from leaving the canonical Greek Orthodox Church for the Old Calendarist churches, which are highly factional and with which I have had bad experiences, something I previously discussed with @ArmyMatt at length.
 
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The Liturgist

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I agree with you in general on words. You don’t need to sell that angle to me. However, you’re talking as if there were no Holy Spirit to guide the Church over all this time, as if it were exclusively up to us fallible humans to get the texts of fallen languages right, and that we’re doomed to error if we don’t. I don’t think that is the case.

I think that the Holy Spirit has guided the fathers of the Church, when they submitted themselves to correction, to rightly interpret these admittedly imperfect, yet nevertheless Holy, Scriptures. The important thing is not so much our exegesis of ancient texts and languages, as it is submission to the consensus of the fathers about how we ought to understand them. Not so much depends on our own wisdom and knowledge. Trust the fathers, where they agreed.

Indeed, this is clearly obvious. And likewise I trust the Orthodox bishops in the English speaking world in their general preference for the KJV and the NKJV as the New Testament of choice.

My main interest in DBH’s translation is the effort he stressed that he had put into the work to make the Greek language style of the authors visible to the English reader, so that their idiosyncatic styles of writing are more apparent and their voice comes through more clearly in that sense. Whether or not it actually does that is something I am unsure of.

But I disagree with DBH about “a long time” being translated as “eternity”, because the Church has previously decided in rejecting Chiliasm and adopting an amillenial position in the fourth century, which is reflected in the Nicene Creed’s declaration that Christ’s kingdom shall have no end, that the Bible uses a long time to mean forever. And we can also see this Semitic tendency to use large numbers to represent the concept that in modern language we would call infinity again in the words of our Lord. Does He mean we should only forgive people 490 times and then stop? Surely not. In fact He says as much elsewhere, that we must forgive others if we want the Father to forgive us, and no limit is placed on it. So clearly, it is erroneous to say that large numbers in the Semitic languages such as the Aramaic spoken by the Holy Apostles, and recorded in the Greek of the New Testament, are not used to represent infinite values, particularly in the culture of the first century AD, in which the idea of the infinite was challenging for people, moreso than today, which is why we see so many devices in ancient mythology used to represent it, for example, the Worm Ouroboros of Greek mythology
 
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Light of the East

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All of this is true, but I am deeply troubled by DBH’s universalism, and I hadn’t noticed a Universalist bias in his new translation, but I wasn’t looking for it as at the time I was not aware of the extent to which he is pushing this agenda, which is contradictory to the Orthodox faith.

Are you saying that there are footnotes in his translation which openly and forcefully declare Apokatastasis to be true? Or do you see that the translation itself is pushing this agenda?
To quote Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, it is acceptable to hope all may be saved, but wrong to say all must be saved, because the one thing God cannot do is force us to love him (or at least, love him voluntarily, which I propose that love must be in order to be truly genuine), and because some people hate God, as C.S. Lewis wrote, the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.

Do you remember the scene in Lewis's book, The Last Battle, where the dwarfs are locked in the stable and Aslan gives them fine food, good wine, etc. and in the darkness, they think it is old turnips and foul water? Why? Because they cannot see what has been given to them. Now in the book, Lewis has Aslan say that there is nothing that can be done to help them, which I find ridiculous because all Aslan has to do is to open a door or window and let the light in and they will see everything as it truly is. This is the so called "free-will theodicy" of those who defend eternal, conscious torment.

The best of us in this world are still somewhat blind, somewhat in darkness. Many have never even been exposed to the Light. The idea that these people "hate" God is illogical, since they know nothing of Him. Having never seen missionaries, having never heard the name of Jesus or the Gospel of His salvific love, they do the best they can in utter darkness. Shall they be tormented forever? Augustine and others say "Yes," as if such a thing were in any way just.

And what of those who are deceived by false Christian teachers, such as I was for numerous years? Did I hate God then when I refused to consider the apostolic faith(s)? What soul would see Christ in all His beauty and love and continue in rebellion. Remember, we all make decisions which are in our own best interests. That is the human way. I find it hard to believe that a soul, upon seeing Christ, would not want the best for itself.
I like the Patristic and Orthodox concept that the outer darkness is a mercy in that the close proximity to God in the New Jerusalem would be a torment for those who are not aligned to receive His love, but instead hate Him and would experience the consuming fire that is the Love of God as the burning Wrath of God.

Or they could experience it as the Bible describes this fire of God in many places - as cleansing and redemptive. This is an a priori assumption on the part of so many people, that the only response to God will be more hatred and that the only purpose of the fire of God's love is to destroy and harm. Yet we see in the Bible the refiner's fire which cleanses the gold, the fires of 1 Corinthians 3 which burn away the wood, hay, and stubble, leaving that which is precious. It seems to me that many people view God as the "Divine Getter Evener" for their own desires for wrath on those who have hurt them in some way. Tertullian spoke of this in looking forward to the glee that he and other Christians would experience as they watched their tormenters on earth be eternally burned. Somehow that doesn't seem to match Matthew 5:44.

Now, ultimately we do not know everything that happens after death, but I feel that a hint of what we might expect is based in the fact that God is love, and love always does the best for that object of its affections. Thus, one could expect that this loving outreach continue into the next life.


But as St. John Chrysostom pointed out, it is missing out on the joys of the life of the world to come that is the greatest loss for those who are not saved.

We are all saved. We just don't all know it yet. St. Paul said so. Perhaps that is where Universalism was birthed, in the book of Romans.

Romans 5: 18-19: "Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I understand that DBH should not be speaking in dogmatic tones regarding Universalism. That is not obedience to the Church. One thing that very much bothers me about his presentations is the lack of warning people that there is a judgment of our deeds before Christ, and that those who have done wickedness are going to be punished, the severity of punishment corresponding to the level of evil done. People must understand that Universal Salvation is not a free ticket on the express train through the Pearly Gates.
 
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The Liturgist

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Are you saying that there are footnotes in his translation which openly and forcefully declare Apokatastasis to be true? Or do you see that the translation itself is pushing this agenda?

Neither. Rather, I am troubled by concerns raised by our new friend @yosef_daniel about the integrity of the translation on the subject of how “ages” is translated. Particularly since the Orthodox Divine Liturgy uses the phrase “Unto ages of ages” to convey eternity, which was translated from Greek to Latin as In Saecula Saeculorum, and rather awkwardly by the Book of Common Prayer and subsequent Western liturgical texts in the form of “as it is now, and ever shall be, world without end.” The translation of the Syriac Orthodox Liturgy I rely on when visiting that church uses the phrase “Now, always and forever,” and while our Lord did not speak Syriac Aramaic, Syriac is useful because of the insights it offers, being a Christian Aramaic dialect not much newer than Gallilean Neo-Aramaic as spoken by our Lord, or the closely related Judaean Neo-Aramaic as spoken in Jerusalem (which were close enough as to be somewhat like accents, similiar to the West Syriac vowell shift, where two of the seven Syriac vowels are dropped, and Mar, meaning My Lord, becomes Mor, Qurbana, meaning Sacrifice, becomes Qurbono, and so on.
 
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The Liturgist

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Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That quote by St. Paul does not say that all men are saved. Not even close. Forgive me if I trust St. John Chrysostom’s exegesis of Scripture over your own. I mean, we only worship using his recension of the Divine Liturgy 315 days out of the year.

(Specifically, the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a derivative of the ancient Antiochene Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, which is still used in its original form by the Syriac Orthodox Church and which has only minor differences to our Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom; they also have an Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom, but it is a different text from ours, but nonetheless extremely beautiful, and I think it possible that St. John may have compiled both, perhaps the first when he initially was promoted from being a presbyter in Antioch to being the Bishop of Constantinople, and the second at a later time; the Syriac Orthodox Church is the most fastidious about preserving variant texts of anaphorae which is why they have 86 of them, even including an Anaphora based on the Alexandrian Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, known to the Coptic and Syriac Orthodox as the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril. They also have an Anaphora of St. Mark which is unrelated to the Alexandrian liturgy that we occasionally use in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, called the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, and which was also used by some Russian Old Rite Orthodox, and which was updated with a modern synaxis in 1893 by the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, and recently Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus celebrated this anaphora using the recension found in the ancient Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, which is the oldest surviving complete Euchologion or liturgical service book.**

** Interestingly, the Alexandrian liturgy we call the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark if one is Greek Orthodox or the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril if one is Coptic or Syriac Orthodox*** is the oldest attested Eucharistic liturgy, thanks to a surviving fragment in the 2nd century Strasbourg Papyrus which corresponds to the Euchologion of St. Sarapion of Thmuis and other historic manuscripts; the Assyrian liturgy of Addai and Mari is believed to be of the same age but this is not attested. The ancient liturgy of Antioch, on which the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is closely based (the difference being St. Chrysostom’s version uses slightly more emphatic language in a few places if you compare them side-by-side), is attested to in variant form in the third century Anaphora of the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus of Rome, which may never have been used in the Roman church, as there is substantial reason to believe the Roman Canon was in use in the fourth century, and it seems probable the anaphora known as the Roman Canon was also used in the third (this anaphora was also used by some Eastern Orthodox, such as Russian Old Rite Orthodox, historically, where it was paired with the Byzantine synaxis to form the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter, which is essentially the Roman Canon appended to a Byzantine liturgy of the Catechumens, but which interestingly has different prayers in the Prothesis than the Divine Liturgies of St. Chrysostom and St. Basil). This anaphora has remained in continual use as the primary anaphora of the Ethiopian Orthodox since the Fourth Century (their liturgy was put together by “The Seven Syrian Saints” who were among the missionaries who assisted in Ethiopia when the country decided to convert from Judaism to Holy Orthodoxy around the same time as Georgia. The Ethiopian version also shows that the version in the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus was, as one might have guessed, an abridged version, containing only the parts of the celebrant and their responses, and not the parts sung by the choir; consequently, the various Western anaphoras of the late 20th century based upon it, such as Eucharistic Prayer no. 2 in the Roman Catholic Church and Eucharistic Prayer B in the 1979 Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer, are based on an incomplete text. Curiously, we have no attestation of the Divine Liturgy of St. James before the fifth century and it has been speculated that it is actually a derivative of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, an adaptation of that liturgy for use in Jerusalem, which would make sense, because there are two closely related Greek texts form antiquity of the Liturgy of St. Basil, one of which follows the Byzantine/Antiochene format and the other of which follows the Alexandrian format, the latter version having been translated into Coptic is the primary liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church, but on major feasts they use an anaphora attributed to St. Gregory the Theologian which is addressed to the person of Jesus Christ, and recently they have revived the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, which had fallen into disuse, for use during the Great Lent.

***This being because because St. Cyril the Great, in addition to fighting off Nestorius and his heresy, did also manage to have the liturgy translated into the vernacular Coptic for the first time, despite there having been Coptic-speaking Christians for hundreds of years previously, and some translations of Scripture, but the pious people who gave us the likes of St. Anthony the Great and the majority of the Desert Fathers, and great martyrs such as Saints Mina and Abanoub, St. Abanoub being the most well-known child martyr of the Diocletian persecution and one involved in many recent miracles, and a saint to whom I have a particular devotion, along with St. Athanasius the Pillar of Orthodoxy, St. Anthony the Great, St. Nicholas of Myra and the Three Holy Hierarchs, were finally able to hear the Orthodox liturgy in their own language.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Now in the book, Lewis has Aslan say that there is nothing that can be done to help them, which I find ridiculous because all Aslan has to do is to open a door or window and let the light in and they will see everything as it truly is.
what window could Aslan open?
 
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Are you saying that there are footnotes in his translation which openly and forcefully declare Apokatastasis to be true? Or do you see that the translation itself is pushing this agenda?


Do you remember the scene in Lewis's book, The Last Battle, where the dwarfs are locked in the stable and Aslan gives them fine food, good wine, etc. and in the darkness, they think it is old turnips and foul water? Why? Because they cannot see what has been given to them. Now in the book, Lewis has Aslan say that there is nothing that can be done to help them, which I find ridiculous because all Aslan has to do is to open a door or window and let the light in and they will see everything as it truly is. This is the so called "free-will theodicy" of those who defend eternal, conscious torment.

The best of us in this world are still somewhat blind, somewhat in darkness. Many have never even been exposed to the Light. The idea that these people "hate" God is illogical, since they know nothing of Him. Having never seen missionaries, having never heard the name of Jesus or the Gospel of His salvific love, they do the best they can in utter darkness. Shall they be tormented forever? Augustine and others say "Yes," as if such a thing were in any way just.

And what of those who are deceived by false Christian teachers, such as I was for numerous years? Did I hate God then when I refused to consider the apostolic faith(s)? What soul would see Christ in all His beauty and love and continue in rebellion. Remember, we all make decisions which are in our own best interests. That is the human way. I find it hard to believe that a soul, upon seeing Christ, would not want the best for itself.


Or they could experience it as the Bible describes this fire of God in many places - as cleansing and redemptive. This is an a priori assumption on the part of so many people, that the only response to God will be more hatred and that the only purpose of the fire of God's love is to destroy and harm. Yet we see in the Bible the refiner's fire which cleanses the gold, the fires of 1 Corinthians 3 which burn away the wood, hay, and stubble, leaving that which is precious. It seems to me that many people view God as the "Divine Getter Evener" for their own desires for wrath on those who have hurt them in some way. Tertullian spoke of this in looking forward to the glee that he and other Christians would experience as they watched their tormenters on earth be eternally burned. Somehow that doesn't seem to match Matthew 5:44.

Now, ultimately we do not know everything that happens after death, but I feel that a hint of what we might expect is based in the fact that God is love, and love always does the best for that object of its affections. Thus, one could expect that this loving outreach continue into the next life.




We are all saved. We just don't all know it yet. St. Paul said so. Perhaps that is where Universalism was birthed, in the book of Romans.

Romans 5: 18-19: "Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I understand that DBH should not be speaking in dogmatic tones regarding Universalism. That is not obedience to the Church. One thing that very much bothers me about his presentations is the lack of warning people that there is a judgment of our deeds before Christ, and that those who have done wickedness are going to be punished, the severity of punishment corresponding to the level of evil done. People must understand that Universal Salvation is not a free ticket on the express train through the Pearly Gates.

At any rate, your argumentation aside, the fact of the matter is that the only church in antiquity which embraced Universalism or Apokatastasis as a definite future outcome rather than as something to hope and pray for was the Assyrian Church of the East, which at the time was the largest in the world geographically, but did not account for the majority of the population in any of its lands except the island of Socotra in Yemen (which did not stop the genocide of the Assyrian Christians there by the Muslims, a genocide that wiped that church out everywhere except in its historic homelands of the Fertile Crescent in Iraq, Iran and Syria, and the Malabar Coast of India, in a terrible genocide initiated by the evil Muslim warlord Tamerlane. We know the Assyrians believed Hell was temporary from recently translated writings of St. Isaac the Syrian, translated by Sebastian Brock (which some people argue are of a different monastic from the Assyrian church, but there was not much in the way of Eastern Orthodox monasteries in the region where St. Isaac is said to have lived, but it is rather an area where the Assyrians and the Syriac Orthodox predominate), and from the Book of the Bee, a book by the eighth century Bishop of Basra, which also declares that those in Hell will receive “stripes according to the severity of their transgressions and then be released.” So basically, at one time, the Assyrian Church of the East believed in a form of Universalism that is less monergistic than full Universalism, which I would call Hell-As-Purgatory. I do not think this is their doctrine at present, but the Assyrian Church can be enigmatic and difficult to pin down; for example, the deny being iconoclasts, and their canons require an altar of Christ (specifically the Image-Not-Made-By-Hands if I recall) to be present on the altar in their churches, yet these icons are rarely if ever present. I attribute this confusion to the fact that for centuries, in violation of their own canon law, the church was ruled by a hereditary Patriarchate, wherein the future Catholicos-Patriarch was inevitably the younger son of the older brother of the presently serving Patriarch, since the church maintained celibate bishops even after all of its monasteries were lost in the genocide of Tamerlane.

In the 1960s, the last hereditary Catholicos, Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII, changed the calendar from the Julian to the Gregorian, which was as unpopular in that church as it was in our own, and the Old Calendarist bishops who broke away in the Ancient Church of the East felt compelled to do so when in addition to the calendar issue, an Indian bishop discovered while reading an ancient nomocanon (collection of canon laws) that a bishop cannot chose his own successor, which was the basis for the hereditary, or at times semi-hereditary patriarchate, in which normally the Patriarch would select his youngest nephew to be his successor (but the choice was up to him, and in the event his nephew died, he could appoint someone else), and this of course is an ancient canonical principle shared by the other churches of apostolic origin such as the Eastern Orthodox Church; one will find a similiar canon in the Pedalion, which is our nomocanon. After finding this out, a group of bishops broke away to found the Ancient Church of the East, led by Mar Addai II, memory eternal, who died a few years ago, who unlike the hereditary Patriarchates, who after the Ottoman genocide of 1915, had ruled from the safety of Chicago, where there is an enormous Assyrian expatriate population, located himself in Iraq. Mar Shimun XXIII then in 1974 caused considerable turmoil when he announced his intention to marry, which would have likely caused the majority of the Assyrians to move to the hierarchy of Mar Addai II, but tragically Mar Shimun XXIII was assasinated. Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV, memory eternal, was elected as the first non-hereditary replacement to succeed him in the Assyrian Church of the East, and in the 2000s he began working with Mar Addai II on reunification of the two churches, which will likely happen soon. The Assyrian Church of the East has around 1.5 million members, 700,000 of which speak Aramaic, constituting the largest surviving population of Aramaic speakers who use Aramaic as their vernacular language, and the Ancient Church of the East has about 100,000 members (nearly all of whom speak Aramaic; they may be included in the 700,000 figure I mentioned; I am not sure).

Due to this turmoil, what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote repeatedly about the Church of the East in his book The Orthodox Church, that they lacked theologians to clarify their positions on certain questions of doctrine, largely remains the case due to the turmoil and the persecutions. However Mar Dinkha IV did formally renounce Nestorian Christology in the 1970s. The Assyrian church has very good relations with the Moscow Patriarchate.

But at any rate, as I said earlier, if Orthodox Christians feel they must be part of an Eastern church that is universalist, perhaps when the dust settles they will find the Assyrian church to be their spiritual home. The doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church cannot be changed, and the position of those who argue that Universalism is the true doctrine of Eastern Orthodoxy are ignoring our rejection of monergism and our emphasis on synergy in salvation, and the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and the reasons why Origen is regarded by many as a heretic (I myself do not feel it was right to anathematize him posthumously, but certain ideas of his are highly erroneous, for example, his idea of the transmigration of the soul). St. Gregory of Nyssa also speculated about apokatastasis, but that is very far from it being declared official doctrine.

This did ironically lead, however, to the wacky Episcopal Church in San Francisco adopting St. Gregory as their patron saint. They have icons pained in the Byzantine style on their ceiling of such reknowned holy men as the Kanghzhi Emperor who banned Christianity in China due to the disagreement between the Jesuits and the Dominicans over whether or not ancestor worship was acceptable, resulting in many martyrdoms, and also other really good Christians, like the Buddha. I speak in jest of course. But had they realized that St. Gregory of Nyssa is one of only a handful of Church Fathers who composed a canon accepted throughout the Orthodox Church, another being his elder brother St. Basil the Great, that specifically condemned homosexuality, thus reinforcing the scriptural prohibition of it.
 
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gzt

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and the problem there is the Masoretic Text disagrees with the Septuagint in ways which for the most part weaken Christological prophecies,
That's not really an accurate description.
 
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I like the Patristic and Orthodox concept that the outer darkness is a mercy in that the close proximity to God in the New Jerusalem would be a torment for those who are not aligned to receive His love, but instead hate Him and would experiencee the consuming fire that is the Love of God as the burning Wrath of God. But as St. John Chrysostom pointed out, it is missing out on the joys of the life of the world to come that is the greatest loss for those who are not saved.

Indeed. This is the first compelling explanation of the punishment of the wicked after death that I ever heard as a non-Orthodox Christian. The love of God that is a source of joy for the saved will be a source of torment for those in hell. Separating people like that would be a mercy to them.
 
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Are you saying that there are footnotes in his translation which openly and forcefully declare Apokatastasis to be true? Or do you see that the translation itself is pushing this agenda?


Do you remember the scene in Lewis's book, The Last Battle, where the dwarfs are locked in the stable and Aslan gives them fine food, good wine, etc. and in the darkness, they think it is old turnips and foul water? Why? Because they cannot see what has been given to them. Now in the book, Lewis has Aslan say that there is nothing that can be done to help them, which I find ridiculous because all Aslan has to do is to open a door or window and let the light in and they will see everything as it truly is. This is the so called "free-will theodicy" of those who defend eternal, conscious torment.

The best of us in this world are still somewhat blind, somewhat in darkness. Many have never even been exposed to the Light. The idea that these people "hate" God is illogical, since they know nothing of Him. Having never seen missionaries, having never heard the name of Jesus or the Gospel of His salvific love, they do the best they can in utter darkness. Shall they be tormented forever? Augustine and others say "Yes," as if such a thing were in any way just.

And what of those who are deceived by false Christian teachers, such as I was for numerous years? Did I hate God then when I refused to consider the apostolic faith(s)? What soul would see Christ in all His beauty and love and continue in rebellion. Remember, we all make decisions which are in our own best interests. That is the human way. I find it hard to believe that a soul, upon seeing Christ, would not want the best for itself.


Or they could experience it as the Bible describes this fire of God in many places - as cleansing and redemptive. This is an a priori assumption on the part of so many people, that the only response to God will be more hatred and that the only purpose of the fire of God's love is to destroy and harm. Yet we see in the Bible the refiner's fire which cleanses the gold, the fires of 1 Corinthians 3 which burn away the wood, hay, and stubble, leaving that which is precious. It seems to me that many people view God as the "Divine Getter Evener" for their own desires for wrath on those who have hurt them in some way. Tertullian spoke of this in looking forward to the glee that he and other Christians would experience as they watched their tormenters on earth be eternally burned. Somehow that doesn't seem to match Matthew 5:44.

Now, ultimately we do not know everything that happens after death, but I feel that a hint of what we might expect is based in the fact that God is love, and love always does the best for that object of its affections. Thus, one could expect that this loving outreach continue into the next life.




We are all saved. We just don't all know it yet. St. Paul said so. Perhaps that is where Universalism was birthed, in the book of Romans.

Romans 5: 18-19: "Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I understand that DBH should not be speaking in dogmatic tones regarding Universalism. That is not obedience to the Church. One thing that very much bothers me about his presentations is the lack of warning people that there is a judgment of our deeds before Christ, and that those who have done wickedness are going to be punished, the severity of punishment corresponding to the level of evil done. People must understand that Universal Salvation is not a free ticket on the express train through the Pearly Gates.

I cannot recall the Last Battle as I lack a copy of the Chronicles of Narnia and was too young to appreciate its theological depth. I have however read The Space Trilogy, which I loved, and what is more important, the writings of CS Lewis that actually deal with Christianity and this issue, including all of his theological writings and the Great Divorce, which is specifically about this issue.

The point CS Lewis was trying to make in the works of his I read, and what it sounds like he was trying to make in The Last Battle, is that for the damned, the only way for them to escape their damnation is to change, which is tragically unlikely since it was their arrogant refusal to abandon immature passions and to cooperate with God in their spiritual formation that got them into that mess.
 
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The Liturgist

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Also by the way, while cS Lewis provides us a useful talking point, I do also have to remark that The Last Battle is not a work of Orthodox Christian Theology, nor even a work by an Orthodox theologian, but rather a work by a writer who, like Dostoevsky and Soren Kierkegaard, was much respected by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and other Orthodox theologians, whose writing offers insightful comments that can be used to help make a point. But whatever inconsistencies and imperfections exist in CS Lewis, such as your apparent complaint that Aslan appeared mistaken when he said there was nothing he could do to help the damned, are at worst, plot holes or inconsistencies in a fairty tale written for children by a particularly pious High Church Anglican, whose views overlap with ours on some points, and whose writings were inspired by traditional Christian theology.

The real issue is that Scripture makes plain that there will be people condemned to the outer darkness, where there will be much gnashing of teeth, “where their worm dieth not” which in light of St. John Chrysostom we might speculate piously as a theolougomemna that the undying worm is chiefly the knowledge of what they are missing out on by not having accepted salvation. There are some profoundly evil people, for example, Lenin, or Stalin, or Hitler, and while I am not saying they are damned, for only God can know that and knows the truth of what happened, it seems that a peril exists in the case that someone like Hitler who is on record as hating our God, or Lenin, who is on record as making similiar misotheistic comments, in both cases killing Christians and others as well, for example, the Jews killed by Hitler, by or Stalin, who went from being a seminarian to a persecutor of Christians, like a nightmarish mirror image of the Holy Apostle St. Paul, who through the grace of God went from being a persecutor of Christians to being the leading Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles. It is difficult to see such people being able to change, but it might be posssible, through God all things are possible, but we do have scriptural scripture that warns some people will refuse all attempts of God at grace. Consider the parable Christ our True God gave of the servant forgiven for his debt, who then refused to forgive another for his debt and was condemned for that.

In other words, for damnation not to be a possibility, it seems inconsistent with the text given the amount of time our Lord and His apostles spent admonishing us on how to avoid it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The point CS Lewis was trying to make in the works of his I read, and what it sounds like he was trying to make in The Last Battle, is that for the damned, the only way for them to escape their damnation is to change, which is tragically unlikely since it was their arrogant refusal to abandon immature passions and to cooperate with God in their spiritual formation that got them into that mess.
yes, that is the point. the dwarves at the end are in Aslan’s County (heaven), but they refuse to see the beauty around them. there is no window or door that can be opened for them if they refuse to repent.
 
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yes, that is the point. the dwarves at the end are in Aslan’s County (heaven), but they refuse to see the beauty around them. there is no window or door that can be opened for them if they refuse to repent.

Thank you Matt. I think I only ever read the first and second books in the Narnia series, so that clears that up.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thank you Matt. I think I only ever read the first and second books in the Narnia series, so that clears that up.
yeah, Lewis was very Orthodox in much of his thinking.
 
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C. S. Lewis, though he wished that Universalism was true, believed the Biblical teaching of 'hell.' In his own words, in the book 'The Problem of Pain, in chapter 8, titled 'Hell,' Lewis says the following.

“Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason. If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself, though many can help him to make it, and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully “All will be saved.” But my reason retorts, “Without their will, or with it?” If I say “Without their will” I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say “With their will,” my reason replies “How if they will not give in?”. . .”

Read more: C. S. Lewis was not a Universalist (hell, doctrine, believe) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
 
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C. S. Lewis, though he wished that Universalism was true, believed the Biblical teaching of 'hell.' In his own words, in the book 'The Problem of Pain, in chapter 8, titled 'Hell,' Lewis says the following.

“Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason. If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself, though many can help him to make it, and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully “All will be saved.” But my reason retorts, “Without their will, or with it?” If I say “Without their will” I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say “With their will,” my reason replies “How if they will not give in?”. . .”

Read more: C. S. Lewis was not a Universalist (hell, doctrine, believe) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
it’s also all over his fiction writings, although he doesn’t go into detail about what exactly happens to the damned the way he does for those who are saved.
 
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it’s also all over his fiction writings, although he doesn’t go into detail about what exactly happens to the damned the way he does for those who are saved.

That said, the fear of the inhabitants of Hell in the Great Divorce over what will happen in the fast-approaching night does not suggest a rosy outlook. However despite the dreadful outlook, it is not sufficient to persuade those people visiting the outer reaches of paradise via a bus tour that getting back on the bus for the drive back to Hell is probably not a good idea. But this is really the tragedy of sin, is it not? This was further emphasized when an implied homosexual couple decided not to board the bus when it was preparing to depart from its stop near the city center.

I’ve always wanted to make a film adaptation of that story.
 
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By the way you know I think CS Lewis was keenly aware that not describing something dreadful can be more effective than describing it. Its a bit like my favorite Doctor Who episode in which the villains are simply additional shadows of normal objects, and the only way to survive is to “count the shadows” and avoid those which aren’t being cast by anything.

The creepiness of that episode was further enhanced by an eerie experience I had at a childrens playground at night when I was 7 or 8, and the twisted metal pole we could slide down or climb up seemed to be casting a shadow that was visible where it should have been obstructed. That was seriously terrifying. I literally ran home (I was the only kid still out, but it was not particularly late, and I had been with a friend who had just returned to his apartment a short distance away).
 
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