Meditation and God

[cloudyday2]

A few years ago I belonged to an Orthodox church, so I thought I would ask you guys this question:

What do you think of meditation? Is it connected to prayer of the heart/Jesus Prayer/etc?

I've been trying to learn to meditate for several months, and a few days ago I stumbled onto a method that works for me (staring at a candle). It takes an hour to exhaust my resistance and then I can finally transition to a quieter mental state. I've only done this about 3 times so far.

Anyway, the last session I began to feel uneasy. I think I was feeling depersonalization? It reminded me of how I've felt after taking drugs. Also it reminded me of a experience where (long story short) it seemed like a beautiful light who identified himself as the devil started showing me that reality, morality, causality is an illusion. I didn't like that experience either.

More recently I've had experiences where it seemed more like God was telling me he loves me and I'm o.k. Those are the kinds of experiences I prefer. Meditation seemed like something different IMO.

So just wondering what you guys think. I'm a little bit afraid to meditate now. I think God might exist and care for me, and I don't want to move in the opposite direction.

BTW The reason I've been trying to learn to meditate is because I'm trying to annihilate my ego so that hopefully I can love people around me properly. I especially have trouble loving my brother who is also my coworker. It's an unexplainable, visceral disgust I feel. Maybe meditation would show me why I feel that way so I can feel differently.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you think of meditation? Is it connected to prayer of the heart/Jesus Prayer/etc?

yes, that is how we meditate. meditation is good when done properly and under some kind of spiritual direction

Anyway, the last session I began to feel uneasy. I think I was feeling depersonalization? It reminded me of how I've felt after taking drugs. Also it reminded me of a experience where (long story short) it seemed like a beautiful light who identified himself as the devil started showing me that reality, morality, causality is an illusion. I didn't like that experience either.

Lord have mercy! yeah, that kinda stuff can happen when we do that stuff on our own, the devil comes in and plays with us like a yo-yo

More recently I've had experiences where it seemed more like God was telling me he loves me and I'm o.k. Those are the kinds of experiences I prefer. Meditation seemed like something different IMO.

well, He does love you, and maybe He is trying to tell you something and get your attention. prayers for you cloudy!

 

[cloudyday2]

yes, that is how we meditate. meditation is good when done properly and under some kind of spiritual direction

So according to what I've read from Buddhist and secular websites, I'm supposed to get into that trance-like quieter mental state and then I'm supposed to notice my thoughts and gain insights? So is that what you do as Christian too? I've only just learned to get into that state, so I haven't tried to utilize that state of mind for anything. But I didn't like the feeling of depersonalization. I felt disconnected from myself for several hours afterwards last time. I had the feeling that my personality and values are an illusion. That's not what I'm trying to accomplish with meditation. I'm trying to learn to accept and love other people and myself; not rise above it all into some higher consciousness. But maybe that's the only way.

I don't see how that state of mind can be used to bring a person closer to God. In the past when I seemed to experience God, it was because I was confused or in despair. Staring at a candle until I enter a trance seems like a cheesy way to approach God. So I'm curious how the meditative state works for prayer of the heart. I had a dream a few years ago where I thought I saw Jesus as a star shining on me, looking through me into some deeper person that has value. It gives me comfort to remember.

I guess I will try to meditate again tonight, but I'm confused about it.

Thanks for your feedback and prayers.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@cloudyday2

can say next - if u will(want) get in close touch with invisible world through meditation, so be very carefull. U can break own life. Dangerous. Alarma-alarma. Standart doctor cant help in that case, imho.

Dont lose your brain in mental experiments.

 

[cloudyday2]

@cloudyday2

can say next - if u will(want) get in close touch with invisible world through meditation, so be very carefull. U can break own life. Dangerous. Alarma-alarma. Standart doctor cant help in that case, imho.

Dont lose your brain in mental experiments.

Thanks. I had problems like that a few years ago. Either I was in touch with that invisible world or I was having psychosis or maybe both. I've never been very spiritual or religious, so I don't know why that happened. I don't want it to happen again.

I don't know what to do. Apparently meditation helps a person depersonalize so that he/she can choose their responses to events instead of responding automatically. This would help me deal with the irrational revulsion I feel for my brother, so I can treat him decently again. I prayed a lot about this problem while I was a Christian and couldn't change my feelings.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So according to what I've read from Buddhist and secular websites, I'm supposed to get into that trance-like quieter mental state and then I'm supposed to notice my thoughts and gain insights?

well, you are supposed to clear your mind and still yourself. but you pray to Christ and He gives you the insight. it is easy to be decieved when you only look to yourself.

But I didn't like the feeling of depersonalization

good

 

[Antony in Tx]

Wesley,

Is that you...call your priest!

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

why did you leave Orthodoxy?

 

[prodromos]

See if you can get hold of tbe book "The young man, the guru, and Elder Paisios" It will help you to see that you are progressing down a very dangerous path.

 

[cloudyday2]

Wesley,

Is that you...call your priest!

Nope, different person.

 

[cloudyday2]

See if you can get hold of tbe book "The young man, the guru, and Elder Paisios" It will help you to see that you are progressing down a very dangerous path.

I read it a few years ago. See my response to Trying_to_be_Orthodox below.

why did you leave Orthodoxy?

(sorry in advance for the length of this tale. It's complicated.)

I've been mostly an atheist all my adult life. Back in 2009 I realized I still kind of believed in God because I would ask him to kill me when I felt bad and so forth. Also my father had died a few months earlier and I thought it would be nice to start going to church with my mother so she wouldn't be alone there. I didn't actually believe in God though. I just realized there was part of me that believed in God for no good reason and I needed to respect that part of me.

So then I went on a trip to meet one of my friends for a few days, and weird things started happening. At one point we met a woman on the street who was collecting money for Meals on Wheels. I gave her some money and then she gave me a copy of the Bhagavad Gita. It made me uncomfortable, so I told her she might as well keep it but she became angry and insisted I take it. So I took her book to avoid a scene and then I tossed in a dumpster later. But the whole weekend felt weird like that. Maybe I was starting to develop psychosis and these things weren't actually happening? I don't know. Finally when I was getting off the airplane at home, somebody said something weird and all the events suddenly fell into a pattern. I thought I somehow offended somebody (maybe the woman who gave me the book) and now "they" wanted to make me go crazy so I would kill myself. Looking back I can see this was a psychotic episode. I thought everybody was spying on me, drugging my coffee, and so forth.

So when I started going to my mother's Orthodox church I was having psychosis. I didn't know anything about Orthodoxy and our church had no training classes. I couldn't sleep because I felt that people were trying to put their thoughts in my head at night. My mother asked her priest to do some prayers. I guess it was an exorcism, but probably it was a sham to humor my mother. Nothing happened but I agreed to start going to church. My sister really saved the day, because she is an MD and wrote me a prescription for sleeping pills. Getting sleep helped a lot.

After a few weeks I woke up and found bits of blood smeared on the floor around my bed and a little pool of it under my bed and sprinkles all over my apartment. Maybe I woke up in a trance due to the sleeping pills and poked my finger and sprinkled my own blood. A knife I had for cooking vanished. Also I found a mouse that my cat had killed, so maybe that was the source of blood. Anyway, it bothered me, and I thought maybe if I started participating in communion it might stop this nonsense. So I asked the priest if I could join and he did a baptism the next Sunday.

At some point our priest wanted my sister-in-law and mother to watch the movie "Ostrov"/"The Island" 2006 and loaned the DVD. I watched this movie also, but I was still mentally unbalanced and decided I wanted to be a monk and shovel coal all day like the hero. I didn't tell anybody this, because I knew they would discourage me. But I started giving away all my savings to charity.

I had some weird hallucinations/visions/whatever periodically over the next year. My big problem was the anger I felt towards my brother. I prayed and prayed about that, but never improved. Finally I went berserk and started tearing all my Christian books to shreds. After I calmed down I noticed that a cross that my Aunt had given me that I kept hanging on my doorknob was gone. That scared me, but I decided to apologize to God. My cat was at my feet while I was praying and I heard him hiss from being startled as apparently the cross reappeared and dropped on the floor at my feet. At first I was relieved that God apparently accepted my apology, but later it bothered me. It was too weird. (Of course it may have been psychosis again.)

Later I read the book mentioned by prodromos ("The young man, the guru, and Elder Paisios"). It bothered me because it seemed to imply that Hinduism is not good and my whole problem seemed to begin with the woman who wanted me to read the Bhagavad Gita. I started getting very depressed. I would sit for hours thinking about the fairy tale "Hansel and Gretel"and how nothing I experienced made any sense. I felt uncomfortable with all the ritualized hocus pocus of the Orthodox church. Also I began to realize that I couldn't become a monk, and that was what I wanted to do.

So after being depressed and confused and skeptical, I finally couldn't go to church anymore. I never liked going to church anyway, but with all those doubts it was impossible.

A year or so later I went to a therapist (about the problem with my brother) and learned about psychosis. So mental illness provided a consistent explanation of my experiences. Now I try to not think about what I believe, because it makes me confused and depressed.

So that's the story for anybody patient enough to read it.

 

[cloudyday2]

well, you are supposed to clear your mind and still yourself. but you pray to Christ and He gives you the insight. it is easy to be decieved when you only look to yourself.

Thanks, it seems like it would be easy for an Orthodox to pray to Christ for insights, get insights from his/her own mind, and then falsely believe those insights came from Christ without proper skepticism.

I've only reached what I assume to be a meditative state a couple of times, but it didn't feel like a good state of mind for praying. That's why I started this thread - to understand better how Orthodox use meditation in prayer.

 

[Ioustinos]

I mean no disrespect or offence, but given your history of mental issues perhaps it is not wise to travel down this path at this moment.

Within Orthodox Christianity, the Jesus Prayer/deep prayer of the heart are not for novices and are done under the strict supervision of a spiritual father. This prayer of the heart must be done within a pastoral context because it can easily lead to personal or external deception.

Furthermore, the aim in the prayer of the heart is different than in Eastern religions. The purpose of the prayer is to still our hearts and bring our minds into our hearts so that we can quiet our soul and be met by The Lord (this is how I understand it at least).

Think on these things so that in the pursuit of good you do not end up harming yourself unintentionally. May The Lord be with you and you are in my prayers.

 

[cloudyday2]

I mean no disrespect or offence, but given your history of mental issues perhaps it is not wise to travel down this path at this moment.

Within Orthodox Christianity, the Jesus Prayer/deep prayer of the heart are not for novices and are done under the strict supervision of a spiritual father. This prayer of the heart must be done within a pastoral context because it can easily lead to personal or external deception.

Furthermore, the aim in the prayer of the heart is different than in Eastern religions. The purpose of the prayer is to still our hearts and bring our minds into our hearts so that we can quiet our soul and be met by The Lord (this is how I understand it at least).

Think on these things so that in the pursuit of good you do not end up harming yourself unintentionally. May The Lord be with you and you are in my prayers.

Thanks. I was only trying to learn the ordinary secular meditation that most people believe is so beneficial, but the trance-like state I experienced a few days ago seemed very unfeeling, amoral, non-earthy ... (I don't know the right word). It seemed like a bad state of mind for praying. It reminded me of when I thought the devil showed me that reality, morality, and my identity are all illusions.

So it confuses me that so many people (Christians included) think that meditation is wonderful. I think it might be able to help me deal with my irrational anger towards my brother. In some ways I enjoyed the trance state, but I also felt guilty about it. Also I've read that meditation can trigger psychosis in rare cases.

So just curious what people think about meditation in general.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks, it seems like it would be easy for an Orthodox to pray to Christ for insights, get insights from his/her own mind, and then falsely believe those insights came from Christ without proper skepticism.

indeed, that is why we test all things

 

[truefiction1]

Thanks. I was only trying to learn the ordinary secular meditation that most people believe is so beneficial, but the trance-like state I experienced a few days ago seemed very unfeeling, amoral, non-earthy ... (I don't know the right word). It seemed like a bad state of mind for praying. It reminded me of when I thought the devil showed me that reality, morality, and my identity are all illusions.

So it confuses me that so many people (Christians included) think that meditation is wonderful. I think it might be able to help me deal with my irrational anger towards my brother. In some ways I enjoyed the trance state, but I also felt guilty about it. Also I've read that meditation can trigger psychosis in rare cases.

So just curious what people think about meditation in general.

cloudyday, meditation can have tremendous benefits for spiritual growth. However, what most people don't conceptualize or teach about meditation is that it permits individuals in an anxiety-reduced state (that is, anxiety-relieving muscular relaxation, posture, breathing, mind cleansing) to face and to transcend the anxiety they associate with "isolation". Individuals learn to face what they fear the most. They are asked to plunge into isolation-- and, even more important, to plunge nakedly, without customary shields of denial. Meditation, in other words, is a powerful avenue to "isolation awareness".

A psychological therapist, and an Orthodox Christian spiritual guide alike, works to find a way to help their patients to confront existential isolation in a dosage and with a support system suited to that individual patient, or spiritual novice. It is the anxiety produced within us owing to our inability to face the reality of existential givens, such as death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness, that make us ill. If we aren't ready for a full dose of reality that can come by means of meditation then we might become even more ill.

What does your personal therapist or spiritual advisor have to say to you about you practicing meditation?

 

[cloudyday2]

cloudyday, meditation can have tremendous benefits for spiritual growth. However, what most people don't conceptualize or teach about meditation is that it permits individuals in an anxiety-reduced state (that is, anxiety-relieving muscular relaxation, posture, breathing, mind cleansing) to face and to transcend the anxiety they associate with "isolation". Individuals learn to face what they fear the most. They are asked to plunge into isolation-- and, even more important, to plunge nakedly, without customary shields of denial. Meditation, in other words, is a powerful avenue to "isolation awareness".

A psychological therapist, and an Orthodox Christian spiritual guide alike, works to find a way to help their patients to confront existential isolation in a dosage and with a support system suited to that individual patient, or spiritual novice. It is the anxiety produced within us owing to our inability to face the reality of existential givens, such as death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness, that make us ill. If we aren't ready for a full dose of reality that can come by means of meditation then we might become even more ill.

What does your personal therapist or spiritual advisor have to say to you about you practicing meditation?

Thanks, truefiction, that is information I didn't know. As I have tried to learn what is meditation and how to accomplish it, there is so much diversity of opinion that I'm very confused. I don't have a spiritual advisor or therapist. I went to a therapist for several months to try to understand my issues with my brother. She finally suggested hypnosis, but I didn't trust her enough to try. I did learn about psychosis from this therapist and that has given me a comforting atheistic explanation for my experiences.

So I'm experimenting. I felt like the trance state I reached a few days ago was progress. It seemed like it must be meditation, but then I was told on another forum that it wasn't meditation. I couldn't enter the trance when I tried last night, but at least I know now that it is a real thing and is possible for me. I have more difficulty meditating than most people.

Also I got your point that dosage is important. I probably stayed in the trance too long the 2nd time, because it was a new experience and I had to work so hard to get there. I want to learn the skills to enter a trance, and then I need to discover what to do with the trance. That is my plan.

 

[Ioustinos]

Cloudyday2,

I meant to let you know that the Orthodox radio program Ancient Faith Today with Kevin Allen has a live program this Sunday on the topic Orthodoxy and Buddhism. I am pretty sure the topic of meditation/The Jesus Prayer will come up. The program is a live, call-in show and if you don't mind holding for a few minutes perhaps you can call in with your question. The program airs online at 8pm EST (don't forget about daylights savings this weekend!).

Here is the link to the podcast page:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/ancientfaithtoday

Here is a summary of the upcoming program:

March 9: Orthodox Christianity and Buddhism
Buddhists in the US are double the number of Orthodox Christians, and most American Buddhists are Western, not raised in Buddhist traditions. Kevin and his guests Fr. Brendan Pelphrey (GOA), an ex-missionary in Asia who has had dialogue with the Dalai Lama, and R. Todd Godwin, ex-Buddhist and Orthodox Christian, will discuss the attractions of Buddhism, as well as its key teachings and practices, in comparison with and in contrast to those of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

And if you can't listen to it live the podcast is typically available a few hours after the broadcast ends at the link below:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday

 

[cloudyday2]

Cloudyday2,

I meant to let you know that the Orthodox radio program Ancient Faith Today with Kevin Allen has a live program this Sunday on the topic Orthodoxy and Buddhism. I am pretty sure the topic of meditation/The Jesus Prayer will come up. The program is a live, call-in show and if you don't mind holding for a few minutes perhaps you can call in with your question. The program airs online at 8pm EST (don't forget about daylights savings this weekend!).

Here is the link to the podcast page:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/ancientfaithtoday

Here is a summary of the upcoming program:


And if you can't listen to it live the podcast is typically available a few hours after the broadcast ends at the link below:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday

Thanks, Kirillos. I will definitely listen to that program.

I don't know why, but I feel guilty and uncomfortable after meditation. Night before last, I didn't meditate as long or as deep, but the next day I had a brain fog and felt nervous, drained, and sick. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I felt off-balance the last time I meditated too. I don't even know if I'm really meditating. Probably I'm too mentally unstable to do this even though it might be good for me.

But I'm curious about the experiences of people who have meditated in the secular way and also in the Orthodox way. When I have thought I experienced Jesus or God it doesn't feel anything like meditation. Meditation seems to be a state transcending emotions and God seems to be about love and familiarity.

 

[Ioustinos]

But I'm curious about the experiences of people who have meditated in the secular way and also in the Orthodox way. When I have thought I experienced Jesus or God it doesn't feel anything like meditation. Meditation seems to be a state transcending emotions and God seems to be about love and familiarity.

CloudyDay2,

I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head with your statement above. Last night I was reading St. Sophrony Essex book On Prayer and in the chapter entitled The Jesus Prayer he writes:

I have dwelt on the dogmatic interpretation of the JESUS PRAYER to a considerable extent because in the last decade I have often come across perverted ideas about the practice of this Prayer. The most inacceptable are those identifying it with yoga, Buddhism and even 'transcendental meditation,' and the like. The radical distinction between all these deviations from Christianity consists in the fact that at the root of our life is the Revelation of a PERSONAL God: I AM. All other paths deflect our mind from the personal inter-relationship between God and the one who prays into the realm of abstract trans-personal Absolute, into impersonal asceticism.

In diverting our mind from all images, meditation can afford us a sense of tranquility, of peace, a release from time and space, but there is no feeling of standing before a personal God. It is not real prayer - face to Face. This can lead to a state where one who is entranced by meditation will be content with the psychical results of such experiments and, worst of all, perception of the Living God, the Personal Absolute, will be alien to him. Not seldom do we see sense-less attempts over a short period to attain 'cosmic knowledge' and even direct contact with the Supra-Personal Absolute. Actually, this kind of asceticism constitutes departure from the True God, from Him Who in truth is.

I think you have gained a 'taste' of what St. Sophrony was speaking of here through your own recent experiences.

You are in my prayers as you journey through these thoughts and I hope all the best for you