Meditation and God

[Lukaris]

Personally whatever meditation I do is done within a state of prayer usually when I am walking. I feel a need to base this on repentance of sin, praying for & to do what is right by myself & to others, for the salvation & well bring of others, love God & neighbor, & to pray for others to come to Christ.

Using the Jesus prayer individually for repentance, plural as an intercession(have mercy on us), saying the golden rule, the 2 great commands (Matthew 22:36-40), pray the Lord of the harvest etc (Matthew 9:37-38) cover what I have said above.

This has helped me understand my own ongoing sin, ongoing repentance, fear of the Lord, an ongoing sense of hope for myself & for anyone (the multitudes in the valley of decision, per Joel 3:18). I have plenty of issues to deal with in this but this is just one person's account.

 

[cloudyday2]

CloudyDay2,

I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head with your statement above. Last night I was reading St. Sophrony Essex book On Prayer and in the chapter entitled The Jesus Prayer he writes:



I think you have gained a 'taste' of what St. Sophrony was speaking of here through your own recent experiences.

You are in my prayers as you journey through these thoughts and I hope all the best for you

Thanks, Kirillos. That matches how my few experiences of meditation have felt. I don't see how a person could possibly mix prayer with meditation, but I don't know much.

One problem when discussing meditation is that there are so many different ideas about what it is and how to do it and what it is good for and so forth. Also two people with different personalities might have very different experiences from identical practices.

My aunt teaches yoga and has been practicing since the 70s. 99% of people seem to think yoga and meditation is wonderful, so I'm confused.

 

[cloudyday2]

Personally whatever meditation I do is done within a state of prayer usually when I am walking. I feel a need to base this on repentance of sin, praying for & to do what is right by myself & to others, for the salvation & well bring of others, love God & neighbor, & to pray for others to come to Christ.

Using the Jesus prayer individually for repentance, plural as an intercession(have mercy on us), saying the golden rule, the 2 great commands (Matthew 22:36-40), pray the Lord of the harvest etc (Matthew 9:37-38) cover what I have said above.

This has helped me understand my own ongoing sin, ongoing repentance, fear of the Lord, an ongoing sense of hope for myself & for anyone (the multitudes in the valley of decision, per Joel 3:18). I have plenty of issues to deal with in this but this is just one person's account.

This is an example of meditation meaning something different to you than it does to me. I've heard people talking about walking meditation. I guess the goal is to be able to meditate any time you want with no effort.

Imagine 3 identical monks saying "lord have mercy" over and over.
Monk #1 is doing it as a chore, so he isn't praying or meditating.
Monk #2 is doing it like a mantra and gradually reaches a emotionless meditative state.
Monk #3 means what he says so he is the only one actually praying IMO.

Does that make sense to you? How can you mix earnestly meaning your prayers with calming and quieting your mind? It's hard for me to visualize how that works.

 

[Lukaris]

This is an example of meditation meaning something different to you than it does to me. I've heard people talking about walking meditation. I guess the goal is to be able to meditate any time you want with no effort.

Imagine 3 identical monks saying "lord have mercy" over and over.
Monk #1 is doing it as a chore, so he isn't praying or meditating.
Monk #2 is doing it like a mantra and gradually reaches a emotionless meditative state.
Monk #3 means what he says so he is the only one actually praying IMO.

Does that make sense to you? How can you mix earnestly meaning your prayers with calming and quieting your mind? It's hard for me to visualize how that works.

I draw my inspiration from a 19th c. Russian Orthodox book called:The Way of a Pilgrim[ in which a humble peasant lives his life walking praying unceasingly (1st Thessalonians 5:17) the Jesus Prayer. My circumstances are much different and anyone attempting to directly use the technique in this book should at least.speak to a priest.

As far as the hypothetical monks you mention, I think that they would all be hesychasts striving to grow in grace to partake of the uncreated light revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt.Tabor (Matthew 17). This is something they do to as part of the church to help all of us see the light that shines in the darkness (John 1:5) which is also the light that shone on the face of Moses (Exodus 34: 29-35). Their process of becoming godlike (deification)is what the Lord Jesus Christ tells us what we were created for in John 10:34-35. Although God is unknowable to us by intellect, He is knowable by grace which we can experience in doses when freed from sinful bondage. St. Gregory Palamas (14 the c) says, "The grace of deification is , therefore, above nature, virtue and knowledge and, according to St Maximos (the Confessor), all things infinitely fall short of it. For all the virtue we can attain and such imitation of God as lies in our.power does no more than fit us for union with the Deity, but is through grace that this ineffable union is actually accomplished. Through grace God in His entirety penetrates the saints in their entirety, and the saints in their entirety penetrate God entirely,....." (St Gregory Palamas, Declaration of the Holy Mountain ( in defense of hesychasm) Philokalia vol.4


See where we are everything done individually is done among others within the body of the church. The blessings hopefully as many may have like in calming the mind etc must be for the good of the church as well as our own good. Our basic comprehension of this is rightly individualistic but we also have to give thanks for what is good & that is done within the whole body of the church like when we partake of the Eucharist.

 

[cloudyday2]

I draw my inspiration from a 19th c. Russian Orthodox book called:The Way of a Pilgrim[ in which a humble peasant lives his life walking praying unceasingly (1st Thessalonians 5:17) the Jesus Prayer. My circumstances are much different and anyone attempting to directly use the technique in this book should at least.speak to a priest.

As far as the hypothetical monks you mention, I think that they would all be hesychasts striving to grow in grace to partake of the uncreated light revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt.Tabor (Matthew 17). This is something they do to as part of the church to help all of us see the light that shines in the darkness (John 1:5) which is also the light that shone on the face of Moses (Exodus 34: 29-35). Their process of becoming godlike (deification)is what the Lord Jesus Christ tells us what we were created for in John 10:34-35. Although God is unknowable to us by intellect, He is knowable by grace which we can experience in doses when freed from sinful bondage. St. Gregory Palamas (14 the c) says, "The grace of deification is , therefore, above nature, virtue and knowledge and, according to St Maximos (the Confessor), all things infinitely fall short of it. For all the virtue we can attain and such imitation of God as lies in our.power does no more than fit us for union with the Deity, but is through grace that this ineffable union is actually accomplished. Through grace God in His entirety penetrates the saints in their entirety, and the saints in their entirety penetrate God entirely,....." (St Gregory Palamas, Declaration of the Holy Mountain ( in defense of hesychasm) Philokalia vol.4


See where we are everything done individually is done among others within the body of the church. The blessings hopefully as many may have like in calming the mind etc must be for the good of the church as well as our own good. Our basic comprehension of this is rightly individualistic but we also have to give thanks for what is good & that is done within the whole body of the church like when we partake of the Eucharist.

Thanks, Lukaris. What you said about the Eucharist matches my opinion that communion is about Jesus gathering everybody closer to him.

To be honest, I feel a bit cynical this morning. I wish people would describe their personal experiences so maybe I could spot some commonalities to sanity-check myself.

 

[cloudyday2]

Cloudyday2,

I meant to let you know that the Orthodox radio program Ancient Faith Today with Kevin Allen has a live program this Sunday on the topic Orthodoxy and Buddhism. I am pretty sure the topic of meditation/The Jesus Prayer will come up. The program is a live, call-in show and if you don't mind holding for a few minutes perhaps you can call in with your question. The program airs online at 8pm EST (don't forget about daylights savings this weekend!).

Here is the link to the podcast page:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/ancientfaithtoday

Here is a summary of the upcoming program:


And if you can't listen to it live the podcast is typically available a few hours after the broadcast ends at the link below:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday

Kirillos, thanks again for that link. I just finished listening to it. They seemed reluctant to discuss any risks of meditation which was a little disappointing. But I still learned some things.

I especially liked the story about the Buddhist who surprised one of them by asking "what is the Christian practice?" That is what I would want to know too. Part of my reason for leaving Christianity was the absence of results (in my case).

 

[Lukaris]

Kirillos, thanks again for that link. I just finished listening to it. They seemed reluctant to discuss any risks of meditation which was a little disappointing. But I still learned some things.

I especially liked the story about the Buddhist who surprised one of them by asking "what is the Christian practice?" That is what I would want to know too. Part of my reason for leaving Christianity was the absence of results (in my case).

The practice is living our faith in Christ, the only results we may experience are those according to the gift of grace God gives us. We have to trust in the Lord as does St. Paul when he was told, "My grace is sufficient for you.." (2nd Corinthians 12:9) also read Romans 12 & 1st Corinthians 12 about living according to the grace given us not attained by us; whatever we might seem to "attain" is a blessing from God. Yes, in giving thanks we can rejoice in any posible blessing we receive but we must also persevere in tribulation depending on the situation. Being giddy when suffering is ridiculous of course, but we need to persevere also.

Personally, I spend more time doing janitorial stuff (in addition to my day job) in the church than in worship. I love the people in our church but there is little opportunity to discuss spiritual matters. Our priest is most helpful when he can be & we have good discussion when my apt. is blessed yearly & I am not a badgerer. I have no desire to be a theologian (not enough smarts) or monastic. I also do not have the challenges of supporting a family.

 

[cloudyday2]

The practice is living our faith in Christ, the only results we may experience are those according to the gift of grace God gives us. We have to trust in the Lord as does St. Paul when he was told, "My grace is sufficient for you.." (2nd Corinthians 12:9) also read Romans 12 & 1st Corinthians 12 about living according to the grace given us not attained by us; whatever we might seem to "attain" is a blessing from God. Yes, in giving thanks we can rejoice in any posible blessing we receive but we must also persevere in tribulation depending on the situation. Being giddy when suffering is ridiculous of course, but we need to persevere also.

Personally, I spend more time doing janitorial stuff (in addition to my day job) in the church than in worship. I love the people in our church but there is little opportunity to discuss spiritual matters. Our priest is most helpful when he can be & we have good discussion when my apt. is blessed yearly & I am not a badgerer. I have no desire to be a theologian (not enough smarts) or monastic. I also do not have the challenges of supporting a family.

Thanks, Lukaris. You make some good points. I'm too tired to argue about them.