Meaning of the Bible

[I Am Hugh]

What's the meaning of the Bible? What's it about? It can be summed up very simply as this: the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

I can explain this further with first a short answer. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty. Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. The knowledge in this case is experience. Good and bad had been defined by Jehovah and at that point was very simple. Fill the earth and subdue it, that was good. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree, that was bad. The knowledge Adam and Eve had acquired was the decision to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. That's why they suddenly considered nudity to be bad. (Genesis 2:25; 3:6-11)

The footnote to Genesis 2:17 in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible explains it really well: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The long answer explains it further by giving you a more accurate understanding of the Bible and so, hopefully, allowing you to more fully understand the meaning of the short answer.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 8:23; 17:5) The word Holy means sacred, or belonging to God. Spirit means an invisible active force, like wind, breath, mental inclination. Something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. So, the holy spirit is God's active force, invisible to us. The first thing that Michael, through Jehovah's holy spirit, created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. (Job 38:4-7) Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon and finally everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done. When we would have accomplished this, we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's Day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period of creation, continues to this day. So, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty. (Psalm 95:11; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Romans 8:22; Hebrews 4:1-5)

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured enough to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So, he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So, Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.

One final point of consideration regarding mankind. From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. You may recall that sacred means belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So, the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession. Sacred life. A sort of gesture of justice. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

 

[PloverWing]

This seems a pretty good summary of the Christian story from an Arian point of view, with the Word or Wisdom being seen as the first created being, who later became incarnate in Jesus. (Nicene Christianity, of course, sees the Word as the second person of the Trinity, so that it was God's own self who became incarnate in Jesus.) I see the Jehovah's Witness influence in your thoughts, as you alluded to in your CF introduction.

I'm pretty familiar with the Arian/Athanasian controversy, so no need to rehash it here. But I do have a question: Why do you (and the JWs) associate this first created being with Michael? I don't think the Bible hints at this, and I don't think Arius asserted it either. Why Michael?

 

[I Am Hugh]

This seems a pretty good summary of the Christian story from an Arian point of view, with the Word or Wisdom being seen as the first created being, who later became incarnate in Jesus. (Nicene Christianity, of course, sees the Word as the second person of the Trinity, so that it was God's own self who became incarnate in Jesus.) I see the Jehovah's Witness influence in your thoughts, as you alluded to in your CF introduction.

I'm pretty familiar with the Arian/Athanasian controversy, so no need to rehash it here. But I do have a question: Why do you (and the JWs) associate this first created being with Michael? I don't think the Bible hints at this, and I don't think Arius asserted it either. Why Michael?

1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22; John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 John 2:13; Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22; John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important task on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

5. Are there any others who believe Michael and Jesus are the same? Yes, there are many. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Dave, I know you'd very much like to express your own views here, but keep in mind the 'Statement of Purpose' for each forum area. For instance, this particular forum, "Exploring Christianity" is essentially 'for' exploring and asking questions about what is [more or less] historically orthodox doctrine. So, this thread you've created would probably need to be moved over to "Controversial Theology" to keep it open and viable for further discussion.

I just thought I'd point this out so you don't end up wasting time writing only to have it removed or shut down.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Dave, I know you'd very much like to express your own views here, but keep in mind the 'Statement of Purpose' for each forum area. For instance, this particular forum, "Exploring Christianity" is essentially 'for' exploring and asking questions about what is [more or less] historically orthodox doctrine. So, this thread you've created would probably need to be moved over to "Controversial Theology" to keep it open and viable for further discussion.

I just thought I'd point this out so you don't end up wasting time writing only to have it removed or shut down.

Where is this Controversial Theology?

 

[eleos1954]

What's the meaning of the Bible? What's it about? It can be summed up very simply as this: the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

I can explain this further with first a short answer. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty. Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. The knowledge in this case is experience. Good and bad had been defined by Jehovah and at that point was very simple. Fill the earth and subdue it, that was good. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree, that was bad. The knowledge Adam and Eve had acquired was the decision to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. That's why they suddenly considered nudity to be bad. (Genesis 2:25; 3:6-11)

The footnote to Genesis 2:17 in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible explains it really well: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The long answer explains it further by giving you a more accurate understanding of the Bible and so, hopefully, allowing you to more fully understand the meaning of the short answer.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 8:23; 17:5) The word Holy means sacred, or belonging to God. Spirit means an invisible active force, like wind, breath, mental inclination. Something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. So, the holy spirit is God's active force, invisible to us. The first thing that Michael, through Jehovah's holy spirit, created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. (Job 38:4-7) Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon and finally everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done. When we would have accomplished this, we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's Day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period of creation, continues to this day. So, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty. (Psalm 95:11; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Romans 8:22; Hebrews 4:1-5)

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured enough to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So, he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So, Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.

One final point of consideration regarding mankind. From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. You may recall that sacred means belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So, the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession. Sacred life. A sort of gesture of justice. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

Jesus is our creator .... Jesus is God .... Jesus is NOT a created being ... He has always been and will always be both man and God ... it is how many will become reconciled with Him (the creator of everything) and when He returns those will become sinless and be with Him ... as He originally created man to be. Praying He returns soon!!!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Where is this Controversial Theology?

Well, for starters, orthodox Christianity doesn't so much go in for the Michael is Jesus argument. I mean, it could be the case that Jesus is Michael, and I'm not personally offended by those who lean in that direction. But, being the skeptically inclined realist that I am, I think a loose surmising on either side of this issue doesn't actually clinch the discernment on this matter in a decisive or definitive way--- for either side.

Moreover, if your views are still what they were over on one of those other websites, you'll soon run into issues definitely qualifying as "controversial" for this website. Trust me, I know ...

 

[I Am Hugh]

Well, for starters, orthodox Christianity doesn't so much go in for the Michael is Jesus argument. I mean, it could be the case that Jesus is Michael, and I'm not personally offended by those who lean in that direction. But, being the skeptically inclined realist that I am, I think a loose surmising on either side of this issue doesn't actually clinch the discernment on this matter in a decisive or definitive way--- for either side.

Moreover, if your views are still what they were over on one of those other websites, you'll soon run into issues definitely qualifying as "controversial" for this website. Trust me, I know ...

The question was intended to establish where the "controversial theology" forum, to which my Biblical questions and interpretation could be expressed actually is. I've seen the term mentioned but never accompanied by an actual link to that alleged forum. Since what you actually said was more a warning than advice, and the OP in question would be "moved" there rather than posted by me, and having done my own search I see that the closest I came to such a forum was Christian only I take it that what you are really saying is that I'm not welcome to express such questions or interpretation anywhere on this forum, correct?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The question was intended to establish where the "controversial theology" forum, to which my Biblical questions and interpretation could be expressed actually is. I've seen the term mentioned but never accompanied by an actual link to that alleged forum. Since what you actually said was more a warning than advice, and the OP in question would be "moved" there rather than posted by me, and having done my own search I see that the closest I came to such a forum was Christian only I take it that what you are really saying is that I'm not welcome to express such questions or interpretation anywhere on this forum, correct?

Nope, that would be incorrect. I'm actually trying to be helpful.

Here's the practical scoop: If you take a look under the "General Theology" forum section, you'll see a subforum section titled "Controversial Christian Theology." That is where anything of significance that you believe which doesn't quite jive with the usual historical orthodox view of Christianity [most of the time] can be talked about.

General Theology

Topics that do not fit in any other forum, eg. Angelology

www.christianforums.com

 

[I Am Hugh]

Nope, that would be incorrect. I'm actually trying to be helpful.

Here's the practical scoop: If you take a look under the "General Theology" forum section, you'll see a subforum section titled "Controversial Christian Theology." That is where anything of significance that you believe which doesn't quite jive with the usual historical orthodox view of Christianity [most of the time] can be talked about.

General Theology

Topics that do not fit in any other forum, eg. Angelology

www.christianforums.com

In 332 BCE Alexander the Great was conquering the Biblical world. His influence, still very much present to this day, influenced Jewish religious leaders. They welcomed him to the temple in Jerusalem and showed him the Biblical prophecies involving his conquest. Along with his influence were the Greek philosophies of Socrates and Plato. So, the religious leaders in Jesus day were an obstacle to truth. In 325 CE, nearly four hundred years after Christ, Constantine the Great had a very similar effect on Christianity through the Nicaean Creed. Constantine was a sun worshiper, the pagan religious leader (Pontifex Maximus) celebrating as such the day before his death giving sacrifice to Zeus.

To adherents of this politically motivated creed definition of a "Christian" is given and I can only post, pretty much anywhere, including the forum you so graciously direct me.

That means I'm not welcome here and I'm not afforded the opportunity to express, let alone, defend my Biblical questions and interpretations.

I thank you for saving me the time I would have wasted and the frustration I would have felt in an attempt to do that. I was pretty much coming to that conclusion myself, but, you have confirmed it for me.

Thank you.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Jesus is our creator .... Jesus is God .... Jesus is NOT a created being ... He has always been and will always be both man and God ... it is how many will become reconciled with Him (the creator of everything) and when He returns those will become sinless and be with Him ... as He originally created man to be. Praying He returns soon!!!!!

Don't hold your breath. The Bible never implied Jesus would return in our day. Jesus is dead. God can't die. You don't know Jesus and you probably never will.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In 332 BCE Alexander the Great was conquering the Biblical world. His influence, still very much present to this day, influenced Jewish religious leaders. They welcomed him to the temple in Jerusalem and showed him the Biblical prophecies involving his conquest. Along with his influence were the Greek philosophies of Socrates and Plato. So, the religious leaders in Jesus day were an obstacle to truth. In 325 CE, nearly four hundred years after Christ, Constantine the Great had a very similar effect on Christianity through the Nicaean Creed. Constantine was a sun worshiper, the pagan religious leader (Pontifex Maximus) celebrating as such the day before his death giving sacrifice to Zeus.

To adherents of this politically motivated creed definition of a "Christian" is given and I can only post, pretty much anywhere, including the forum you so graciously direct me.

That means I'm not welcome here and I'm not afforded the opportunity to express, let alone, defend my Biblical questions and interpretations.

I thank you for saving me the time I would have wasted and the frustration I would have felt in an attempt to do that. I was pretty much coming to that conclusion myself, but, you have confirmed it for me.

Thank you.

Well, all I've done is to point out, too, that whichever section you want to post within the entirety of CF, you have to essentially abide by the Statement of Purpose for that section. Each section and subforum has its own individual Statement of Purpose.

The purpose of Exploring Christianity is for non-orthodox folks, religious or not, to ask questions and hear answers from the trinitiarian orthodox (i.e. from Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants/Evangelicals).

This particular forum isn't for non-orthodox to pose questions and then proceed to answer their own questions so as to 'teach' others. Personally, I don't mind if you do, but the owners of CF do mind. Still, you can find several forum sections here in which to express yourself.

 

[Soyeong]

What's the meaning of the Bible? What's it about? It can be summed up very simply as this: the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

I can explain this further with first a short answer. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty. Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. The knowledge in this case is experience. Good and bad had been defined by Jehovah and at that point was very simple. Fill the earth and subdue it, that was good. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree, that was bad. The knowledge Adam and Eve had acquired was the decision to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. That's why they suddenly considered nudity to be bad. (Genesis 2:25; 3:6-11)

The footnote to Genesis 2:17 in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible explains it really well: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The long answer explains it further by giving you a more accurate understanding of the Bible and so, hopefully, allowing you to more fully understand the meaning of the short answer.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 8:23; 17:5) The word Holy means sacred, or belonging to God. Spirit means an invisible active force, like wind, breath, mental inclination. Something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. So, the holy spirit is God's active force, invisible to us. The first thing that Michael, through Jehovah's holy spirit, created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. (Job 38:4-7) Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon and finally everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done. When we would have accomplished this, we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's Day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period of creation, continues to this day. So, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty. (Psalm 95:11; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Romans 8:22; Hebrews 4:1-5)

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured enough to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So, he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So, Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.

One final point of consideration regarding mankind. From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. You may recall that sacred means belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So, the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession. Sacred life. A sort of gesture of justice. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

The Bible begins with the Tree of Life, it ends with the Tree of Life, and everything in between is about undoing the damage caused by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and the way back to the Tree of Life. There are a number of ways that the text shows Eve's desire influenced her perceptions (Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement so that we can't be sure by ourselves whether something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. So this is where we have a choice of whether to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong that was gained by eating from the Tree of Knowledge by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways, and He will make our way straight (Proverbs 3:18). Likewise, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it (Proverbs 3:16-18).

Before eating from either tree, Adam and Eve were at a crossroads between mortality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life, and Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelites were at the identical crossroads where Moses presented them with a choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to what God has instructed or death and a curse for disobedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that what God has instructed is not too difficult for us to obey, not that we can't keep it.

 

[PloverWing]

@I Am Hugh : Thanks for the explanation about Michael. Wikipedia has informed me that there's elaborate mythology surrounding Michael -- first in Judaism, then also in Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i -- that goes way beyond what we see in the official Scriptures of these faiths. I'm not willing to accept this mythology as canon, but I can imagine that interpreters who have these stories in their culture could then interpret the Bible in ways that fit the mythology.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Well, all I've done is to point out, too, that whichever section you want to post, within the entirety of CF, you have to essentially abide by the Statement of Purpose for that section. Each section and subforum has its own individual Statement of Purpose.

The purpose of Exploring Christianity is for non-orthodox folks, religious or not, to ask questions and hear answers from the trinitiarian orthodox (i.e. from Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants/Evangelicals).

This particular forum isn't for non-orthodox to pose questions and then proceed to answer their own questions so as to 'teach' others. Personally, I don't mind if you do, but the owners of CF do mind. Still, you can find several forum sections here in which to express yourself.

No forum here allows for what I'm looking for. I'm not criticizing that, I'm respecting your right to do what you want to do without people like me arguing with you about it. There are plenty of places where I can do what I want to do or I could make my own. You do you and I can do me. No problem.

You have a really nice forum here. Have fun. I'm bowing gracefully out.

 

[Hawkins]

Rather the big picture of Christianity is,

God is to build an eternity (not earth) we call Heaven where God will live with angels and humans happily forever and ever. Earth is just a stepping stone to achieve the goal.
On the other hand, God is completely sin-incompatible. He can't be happy in an eternity living with sins. That's why, for everyone's happiness, Law is set up to identify the so-called righteousness who can live with such a sin-incompatible God eternally. Law followed by a Final Judgment defines who is qualified to enter Heaven. At the same time, Law serves as God's promise to say that, "if you pass this Judgment of Law, I will bear with you in eternity, no matter what".

Adam and Eve (first lineage of humans) fell due to lack of 1) obedience and 2) faith in God and His Word.

Law is a measurement of obedience. The Judgment of Law will be carried out objectively on one's behavior in past. Law deals objectively, that is under valid witnessing, but only 1) the past, and 2) one's behavior. Humans as a whole, due mainly to the influence from the fallen angels (i.e., the effect from the snake to Adam and Eve) failed the test. As a result, no human can enter the Final Heaven (i.e., New Heaven and New Earth) by means of the Judgment of Law which is an evaluation of one's obedience. Either humans as a whole shall be destroyed by a flood, or God needs to provide an alternative to redeem humankind. Needless to say, through the self-sacrifice of Jesus Christ at a certain point of humanity, a series of Covenants are granted by God for the salvation of humankind.

Ultimately, the New Covenant is a measurement of one's faith. Both obedience and faith are the fundamental elements for entities to live in an eternity with a sin-incompatible God. Humans failed the test of obedience while the New Covenant is a test of faith. The purpose is to identify those who can live with such a sin-incompatible God in eternity. That is, it serves as an open standard for the identifying of the righteous/God's sheep/God's Elect.

Faith cannot be judged objectively the same as in the case of Law. The Judgment of Covenant is a subjective judgment from a fair and just God who is Jesus Christ. Only God can judge heart and faith precisely and justly, while the judgment is not limited to one's behavior and one's past.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No forum here allows for what I'm looking for. I'm not criticizing that, I'm respecting your right to do what you want to do without people like me arguing with you about it. There are plenty of places where I can do what I want to do or I could make my own. You do you and I can do me. No problem.

You have a really nice forum here. Have fun. I'm bowing gracefully out.

I can understand your angst, but at the same time, you're saying all of this doesn't quite sound like you came here to learn, Dave.

 

[I Am Hugh]

I can understand your angst, but at the same time, you're saying all of this doesn't quite sound like you came here to learn, Dave.

Discussion Preferences
Normally, being naturally skeptic, I prefer to discuss and debate with unbelievers. There's a few reasons for that; I was raised in an atheist/irreligious family and was myself agnostic/irreligious half of my life. All of my friends and family have usually been unbelieving, I relate to them more than I do religious people, I consider the believer to believe for good reason, whatever that may be, and so informed to whatever extent they feel necessary. Though I prefer discussion over debate the former always becomes the latter and that's fine. However, having done this for some time I'm not as interested in debate for the sake of debate or ideology. I can walk away from a debate without giving it a second thought. It doesn't get to me on an emotional level. I don't have to correct everyone on the internet.

Mission Statement
My intention, my reason for being here, is simple. I want to learn and discuss subjects of interest to me. I don't believe in conversion, or that the purpose of participation in a forum such as this is a service to God or man. I believe that as a follower of Christ my obligation is to inform interested persons according to the accurate knowledge of the Bible so that they can make an informed decision on whether or not to pursue the matter. To plant the seed. The rest is up to the individual and Jehovah. I'm not really here in that capacity. Though I used to think that was a good purpose I no longer think it is realistic. I'm here for learning and discussing.

The Hebrew name Israel means to grapple, contend, or wrestle with God and thereby be preserved. So, when Jacob wrestled with the angel (messenger) of God he was effectively wrestling with God for his own preservation - God's blessing. And so, throughout the Bible you see the repetition of thematic practices. The seventh day, the day of rest, God's Holy day, was modeled after the seven days of creation. The seventh day of Adam's day continued on to Moses' day, to David's day, to Paul's day and to our day. (Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 31:16-17; Isaiah 58:13-14; Numbers 14:28-35; Psalm 95:7-11; Hebrews 4:3, 6, 10) Was God tired? Did he need to rest? Did he stop working? No. (Isaiah 40:28; John 15:7) Entering God's day of rest, foreshadowed on the Sabbath, modeled from creation, is the period of time when we set aside our ways and concentrate on God's ways, and ultimately, entering his day of rest means we are complete. And can set aside, permanently, our ways inherited from Adam, sin, and instead, fulfil our purpose as images (reflections) of God, and his ways. Into the promised land. First the imperfect tutor led by Moses and Joshua, then the reality, a new heaven and earth, led by Jesus Christ. That is why the number 666 is man's number. Imperfection emphasized thrice.

Achieving the perfection purposed in Adam's creation, prior to his sin, involves grappling, wrestling or contending with God. What is our biggest obstacle? Satan is a Hebrew word that means resistor, adversary. The first time it's used in the Bible, at Numbers 22:22, is in reference to a righteous angel of God who stood in the road as an adversary resisting Balaam. There the Hebrew word is translated resist. Balaam sought the reward of the Moabite King Balak over Jehovah. Like Cain. Jesus said the world, of which Satan is the God, was founded upon the blood of Abel. Killed by Cain. (Numbers 22:16-22; 2 Peter 2:15-16; Genesis 4:8; Matthew 23:35; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Then began the end times. Satan, the devil (slanderer/deceiver) tempted Jesus with the offer of all the kingdom's of mankind of all time, which he has authority over. Jesus didn't deny Satan had authority over them but he refused the offer. He said he was no part of the world, and his followers would be no part of the world. No part of Satan's kingdoms of men.

Now, the Jews waited for thousands of years for their Messiah, savior and what did they do to him when he arrived? They nailed him to a tree. Why? Because their ideology, their religion and their greed for power in the world, deceived them. Do you not think that if he were to return as a man the Christians would not do the same? Reject him, even, if necessary, to death, for the same reason?

The word sin means to miss the mark. If you exceed the speed limit you are sinning against your government, by disobeying their law. If you are late for work you sin against your employer for not being there at the time he set. The word was used in application to archers and spearman who missed their target. We inherit sin through our environment. Much like a child of a criminal who is thrown into prison hasn't been punished for his father's crime but suffers, through his environment as a fatherless child nevertheless. Our personal sin is where we miss the mark usually but not necessarily as a result of our sinful environment.

We grapple, with ourselves, with God, with sin, with the world. The ideology (science of ideas) of the world, when it becomes a part of us, is very difficult, nearly impossible for us to grapple with. How do we do that? We don't allow our ideas, or the traditions of men, to become doctrine which we dogmatically cling to. So, the prophets, like Abel, were killed, and laid the foundation for the forming of the world, Satan's world. The prophets, like Jesus.

So I learn, from outside the world, through the perspectives of those who don't share my ideology. At Micah 6:8 it is asked, what is Jehovah asking of you, but to love kindness and be humble in walking with your God. The Hebrew word there for humble means being aware of one's own strengths and weaknesses.

God sent the prophets to tell Israel where they were sinning. They killed the prophets. So, what did Jesus tell his disciples to do when they rejected the truth? Argue with them? Debate with them? No. Wipe the dust from their feet and move on. I didn't come here to minister, I came here to learn. I learned from the unbelievers and I learn from the Believers. They are the same.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Hebrew name Israel means to grapple, contend, or wrestle with God and thereby be preserved. So, when Jacob wrestled with the angel (messenger) of God he was effectively wrestling with God for his own preservation - God's blessing. And so, throughout the Bible you see the repetition of thematic practices. The seventh day, the day of rest, God's Holy day, was modeled after the seven days of creation. The seventh day of Adam's day continued on to Moses' day, to David's day, to Paul's day and to our day. (Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 31:16-17; Isaiah 58:13-14; Numbers 14:28-35; Psalm 95:7-11; Hebrews 4:3, 6, 10) Was God tired? Did he need to rest? Did he stop working? No. (Isaiah 40:28; John 15:7) Entering God's day of rest, foreshadowed on the Sabbath, modeled from creation, is the period of time when we set aside our ways and concentrate on God's ways, and ultimately, entering his day of rest means we are complete. And can set aside, permanently, our ways inherited from Adam, sin, and instead, fulfil our purpose as images (reflections) of God, and his ways. Into the promised land. First the imperfect tutor led by Moses and Joshua, then the reality, a new heaven and earth, led by Jesus Christ. That is why the number 666 is man's number. Imperfection emphasized thrice.

Achieving the perfection purposed in Adam's creation, prior to his sin, involves grappling, wrestling or contending with God. What is our biggest obstacle? Satan is a Hebrew word that means resistor, adversary. The first time it's used in the Bible, at Numbers 22:22, is in reference to a righteous angel of God who stood in the road as an adversary resisting Balaam. There the Hebrew word is translated resist. Balaam sought the reward of the Moabite King Balak over Jehovah. Like Cain. Jesus said the world, of which Satan is the God, was founded upon the blood of Abel. Killed by Cain. (Numbers 22:16-22; 2 Peter 2:15-16; Genesis 4:8; Matthew 23:35; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Then began the end times. Satan, the devil (slanderer/deceiver) tempted Jesus with the offer of all the kingdom's of mankind of all time, which he has authority over. Jesus didn't deny Satan had authority over them but he refused the offer. He said he was no part of the world, and his followers would be no part of the world. No part of Satan's kingdoms of men.

Now, the Jews waited for thousands of years for their Messiah, savior and what did they do to him when he arrived? They nailed him to a tree. Why? Because their ideology, their religion and their greed for power in the world, deceived them. Do you not think that if he were to return as a man the Christians would not do the same? Reject him, even, if necessary, to death, for the same reason?

The word sin means to miss the mark. If you exceed the speed limit you are sinning against your government, by disobeying their law. If you are late for work you sin against your employer for not being there at the time he set. The word was used in application to archers and spearman who missed their target. We inherit sin through our environment. Much like a child of a criminal who is thrown into prison hasn't been punished for his father's crime but suffers, through his environment as a fatherless child nevertheless. Our personal sin is where we miss the mark usually but not necessarily as a result of our sinful environment.

We grapple, with ourselves, with God, with sin, with the world. The ideology (science of ideas) of the world, when it becomes a part of us, is very difficult, nearly impossible for us to grapple with. How do we do that? We don't allow our ideas, or the traditions of men, to become doctrine which we dogmatically cling to. So, the prophets, like Abel, were killed, and laid the foundation for the forming of the world, Satan's world. The prophets, like Jesus.

So I learn, from outside the world, through the perspectives of those who don't share my ideology. At Micah 6:8 it is asked, what is Jehovah asking of you, but to love kindness and be humble in walking with your God. The Hebrew word there for humble means being aware of one's own strengths and weaknesses.

God sent the prophets to tell Israel where they were sinning. They killed the prophets. So, what did Jesus tell his disciples to do when they rejected the truth? Argue with them? Debate with them? No. Wipe the dust from their feet and move on. I didn't come here to minister, I came here to learn. I learned from the unbelievers and I learn from the Believers. They are the same.

That's all good to hear. I think you'll find many Christians on CF already share similar views to your own, with the exception being that they'll adhere to the Trinitarian perspective on those views.

 

[eleos1954]

Don't hold your breath. The Bible never implied Jesus would return in our day. Jesus is dead. God can't die. You don't know Jesus and you probably never will.

Jesus didn't say when He would return ... but that He would return ... and when He does we go to be with Him. Jesus is not dead (He was resurrected in His human nature .... He was completely sinless and because He was He overcame death and was resurrected.

John 11:25
English Standard Version
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

John 14:2-6 NKJVIn My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also (Jesus is in heaven).

Jesus was fully man and fully God ... the only way God could experience death was to take on human nature. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died ... He retained His divine nature.

John 10

17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life (human nature) —only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Jesus was and is both man and God and forever will be.

Jesus Christ was sent by the Father as Jesus Christ to be God revealed in the flesh for our salvation. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, fully God and fully human, two natures in one Person.

The two natures were mysteriously blended in one person ... when He was born of a human mother . This act is something that man can neither fully comprehend or explain.

The God-man dual nature of Christ is what provides our way of reconnecting/restoration with God He originally created before the fall.

Jesus is very much alive and is our High Priest and intercessor in heaven.