MARRIAGE WILL NOT CURE YOUR LUST

[Michie]

When I became a Christian in high school I got involved with the Protestant ministry that introduced me to Christ. This led eventually to me being a “leader” in this ministry and helping to host camps for teenagers. It was wildly formative as I was able to work alongside men, young and old, and learn how they did things, handled challenges, and even loved their wives. This was all new to me, since I had not grown up in such an explicitly “God-first” ecosystem.

After becoming Catholic, my understanding of the Christian ecosystem grew, especially in the realm of sexual morality. While there are exceptions, the Protestant communities all around us have very little depth to their understanding of sexual intimacy. Often, it just gets boiled down to “sex should not be done until marriage, but after marriage, anything goes.”

At one of the camps I mentioned, I remember when all of the single guys retired to a group cabin and the married ones to family cabins. As we lay there, one of the leaders (who was older than me) said, “Just think, those married guys get to go to their cabins and just slide right into their wives.” Everyone started laughing and agreeing – “Won’t it be great to be married and have a lot of sex?” By “sliding into their wives”, in case you missed it, he meant intercourse.

In further discussions it became clear, we young men had accepted the idea that lust will be cured by marriage, when we can just satisfy that “need” using our spouse. There is a certain truth lurking somewhere here, which St. Paul notes. In the letter to the Corinthians, he praises the celibate life, but also notes that it is better to be married than to be burning with passion:

Continued below.

Marriage Will Not Cure Your Lust

The single life is the time to gain self-mastery, to learn true freedom through self-denial, and to learn to look forward to the sanctification of your future spouse. You should be praying for her now, not longing for a female body to play with. It’s time to grow up and conquer lust because...

catholicgentleman.com

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I learned recently that the definition for the word "Lust" is to "covet."
According to Denis Prager, the word "lust," doesn't exist.

So, when Jesus said, a man who looks at a woman has "lust" in his heart, commits adultery.
The translation is that a man who covets a woman, commits adultery.

Makes sense to me!

 

[Michie]

‘Men want variety’: Why Dennis Prager’s defense of inappropriate contentography is profoundly dangerous...

Dennis Prager, a conservative author and talk radio host, is trending on social media for sharing what many see as an overly simplistic and undeniably problematic view of inappropriate contentography. “Men want variety,” Prager said during a recent round-table discussion hosted by The Daily...

www.christianforums.com

 

[JimR-OCDS]

‘Men want variety’: Why Dennis Prager’s defense of inappropriate contentography is profoundly dangerous...

Dennis Prager, a conservative author and talk radio host, is trending on social media for sharing what many see as an overly simplistic and undeniably problematic view of inappropriate contentography. “Men want variety,” Prager said during a recent round-table discussion hosted by The Daily...

www.christianforums.com

I've been watching Dr Jordan Peterson's series called, "Exodus." There is a panel of Christians, both Catholic
and protestant, along with Dennis Prayer and now Ben Shapiro.

Dennis is an expert on the Tora and gives Jewish interpretation of the text. One text he originally
had a problem with from the New Testament, was Jesus statement that a man who looks with
lust at a woman, commits adultery with her. In his investigation, the word "lust," is not used
in Jewish Scripture and when he replaced Jesus' word to covet, which is what he means,
it made sense.

 

[Wolseley]

There is an anonymous saying that if a man loves a woman's soul, he will love that one woman---but if he only loves her face or her body, not all the women in the world will satisfy him.

And that's true.

 

[fide]

I've been watching Dr Jordan Peterson's series called, "Exodus." There is a panel of Christians, both Catholic
and protestant, along with Dennis Prayer and now Ben Shapiro.

Dennis is an expert on the Tora and gives Jewish interpretation of the text. One text he originally
had a problem with from the New Testament, was Jesus statement that a man who looks with
lust at a woman, commits adultery with her. In his investigation, the word "lust," is not used
in Jewish Scripture and when he replaced Jesus' word to covet, which is what he means,
it made sense.

From his background, it would seem that Dennis Prager could be an expert on the Hebrew of Jesus's time - but to make such a change in the vocabulary - the word choices - that Jesus personally made in His teachings, the translator would have to know things only a person present at the time with Jesus could know. The only person - Person - Who was present at that time who could know inerrantly what Jesus intended to communicate, was the Holy Spirit.

Humanly speaking, for one human person to be an expert commentator of the vocabulary of Jesus, he would need to be expert on the Aramaic and Hebrew and Greek, as well as present to see the body language, facial expressions, and all else that goes into communication of nuance (which is in the communication but not in the words alone). However, translating Holy Scripture is still more complicated: The Words of God require the understanding of God Himself. God - the Holy Spirit - is the Author of the Scripture.

CCC 105 - God is the author of Sacred Scripture....
CCC 106 - God inspired the human authors of the sacred books....
CCC 107 - The inspired books teach the truth. ....

So for most Americans, the "problem" is Hebrew/Aramaic -> NT Greek -> English, and for Catholics, Latin and the acceptance of the Church of a given translation. Granted, the Latin uses the word "concupiscendum" which is translated in English as "to be coveted"!

For me, after all that being said, the English word "covet" lacks the nuance of passion that the word "lust" possesses. And sexual desire is an event of passion, unlike the much "cooler" desire that a man might have for his neighbor's house or money, for example. Thus I believe (and I believe the Spirit has taught the Church) that when Jesus intended to speak of that particular sexual covetousness in men, He meant what we mean by the English word "lust" - which passion is in the Greek word translated to English as "lust" - ἐπιθυμέω - epithumeō, from the root "θυμός - thumos", meaning passion (as if breathing hard).

Mt 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully [Gk: ἐπιθυμέω - epithumeō; Latin: concupiscendum - to be coveted ] has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Hence, I'd say, stick with the word "lust".

 

[fide]

When I became a Christian in high school I got involved with the Protestant ministry that introduced me to Christ. This led eventually to me being a “leader” in this ministry and helping to host camps for teenagers. It was wildly formative as I was able to work alongside men, young and old, and learn how they did things, handled challenges, and even loved their wives. This was all new to me, since I had not grown up in such an explicitly “God-first” ecosystem.

After becoming Catholic, my understanding of the Christian ecosystem grew, especially in the realm of sexual morality. While there are exceptions, the Protestant communities all around us have very little depth to their understanding of sexual intimacy. Often, it just gets boiled down to “sex should not be done until marriage, but after marriage, anything goes.”

At one of the camps I mentioned, I remember when all of the single guys retired to a group cabin and the married ones to family cabins. As we lay there, one of the leaders (who was older than me) said, “Just think, those married guys get to go to their cabins and just slide right into their wives.” Everyone started laughing and agreeing – “Won’t it be great to be married and have a lot of sex?” By “sliding into their wives”, in case you missed it, he meant intercourse.

In further discussions it became clear, we young men had accepted the idea that lust will be cured by marriage, when we can just satisfy that “need” using our spouse. There is a certain truth lurking somewhere here, which St. Paul notes. In the letter to the Corinthians, he praises the celibate life, but also notes that it is better to be married than to be burning with passion:

Continued below.

Marriage Will Not Cure Your Lust

The single life is the time to gain self-mastery, to learn true freedom through self-denial, and to learn to look forward to the sanctification of your future spouse. You should be praying for her now, not longing for a female body to play with. It’s time to grow up and conquer lust because...

catholicgentleman.com

One other comment on this subject that seems relevant, to me, is the connectedness that exists between the two Sacraments that are termed in the Catechism, "The Sacraments at the Service of Communion"

CHAPTER THREE - THE SACRAMENTS AT THE SERVICE OF COMMUNION
CCC 1533 Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist are sacraments of Christian initiation.....They confer the graces needed for the life according to the Spirit ....
CCC 1534 Two other sacraments, Holy Orders and Matrimony, are directed towards the salvation of others; if they contribute as well to personal salvation, it is through service to others that they do so. They confer a particular mission in the Church and serve to build up the People of God.

St. Paul connects these two Sacraments here:

Eph 5:24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

To paraphrase,
As the Church is to Christ, so the wife is to her husband;
As Christ is to the Church, so the husband is to his wife.

A priest, by virtue of ordination, stands in "persona Christi Capitis", being in the place of Christ the Head for the Church the Body, sacramentally.
So - can a faithful husband abuse his wife, sexually or any other way? No, not without sinning against her.
Can a faithful priest abuse members of the Church, sexually or in any other way? No, not without sinning against her.

Does marriage enable a husband to abuse, or rape, his wife? No, of course not.
Does ordination enable a priest to abuse, or rape, members of the Church? Certainly not.
Does such abuse happen anyway? How can it happen? By sin. By godless carnality in some priests, and husbands.
We need reform in formation of priests, and of husbands.
satan hates and attacks men in marriages and men in holy orders, especially in these dark days. The Church needs reform.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From his background, it would seem that Dennis Prager could be an expert on the Hebrew of Jesus's time - but to make such a change in the vocabulary - the word choices - that Jesus personally made in His teachings, the translator would have to know things only a person present at the time with Jesus could know. The only person - Person - Who was present at that time who could know inerrantly what Jesus intended to communicate, was the Holy Spirit.

Humanly speaking, for one human person to be an expert commentator of the vocabulary of Jesus, he would need to be expert on the Aramaic and Hebrew and Greek, as well as present to see the body language, facial expressions, and all else that goes into communication of nuance (which is in the communication but not in the words alone). However, translating Holy Scripture is still more complicated: The Words of God require the understanding of God Himself. God - the Holy Spirit - is the Author of the Scripture.

So for most Americans, the "problem" is Hebrew/Aramaic -> NT Greek -> English, and for Catholics, Latin and the acceptance of the Church of a given translation. Granted, the Latin uses the word "concupiscendum" which is translated in English as "to be coveted"!

For me, after all that being said, the English word "covet" lacks the nuance of passion that the word "lust" possesses. And sexual desire is an event of passion, unlike the much "cooler" desire that a man might have for his neighbor's house or money, for example. Thus I believe (and I believe the Spirit has taught the Church) that when Jesus intended to speak of that particular sexual covetousness in men, He meant what we mean by the English word "lust" - which passion is in the Greek word translated to English as "lust" - ἐπιθυμέω - epithumeō, from the root "θυμός - thumos", meaning passion (as if breathing hard).

Hence, I'd say, stick with the word "lust".

In the discussion by the panel members, Oz Guiness pointed out that all sin derives from the heart, and he was right.
Dennis Prager only saw the act as sin, but fell short in understanding the source of sin comes from the will, or the heart,
which is what Jesus actually meant.

As far as translation goes, Dennis Prager understands Hebrew, Greek and Russian. He teaches the Torah in Judaism, so
his translation of lust was agreed to by the panel. Keep in mind that we read the English translation. The translators
translate the word "love," from Scripture as being one word. In Hebrew and Greek, four words for love are used.

Also, the word "sin," had the definition of to miss the mark, or akin to an archer aiming at his target, but missing it.

Understanding these correct interpretations gives a different meaning to us when we learn what God actually said in Scripture.

The Exodus series by Dr Jordan Peterson is really good and an eye-opener for those interested in understanding the Old Testament.

 

[fide]

In the discussion by the panel members, Oz Guiness pointed out that all sin derives from the heart, and he was right.
Dennis Prager only saw the act as sin, but fell short in understanding the source of sin comes from the will, or the heart,
which is what Jesus actually meant.

As far as translation goes, Dennis Prager understands Hebrew, Greek and Russian. He teaches the Torah in Judaism, so
his translation of lust was agreed to by the panel. Keep in mind that we read the English translation. The translators
translate the word "love," from Scripture as being one word. In Hebrew and Greek, four words for love are used.

Also, the word "sin," had the definition of to miss the mark, or akin to an archer aiming at his target, but missing it.

Understanding these correct interpretations gives a different meaning to us when we learn what God actually said in Scripture.

The Exodus series by Dr Jordan Peterson is really good and an eye-opener for those interested in understanding the Old Testament.

While hearing all that you have said, I would add only this: spiritual matters are understood only in the same spirit in which they were written.