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Mandatory punishment for women who abort.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Phronesis, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. Phronesis

    Phronesis Newbie

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    Just my thoughts on a subject.

    If we consider abortion to be morally wrong on the level of murder, then it logically extends that we ought to punish the mother if she was complicit in the abortion process.

    I got to thinking how law enforcement officials could prove beyong a reasonable doubt that an abortion had taken place, and the only conclusion I could come to is that women should be mandated to recieve maybe quarterly examinations of their uterus, under threat of jail if they refuse. Or maybe make pregnant women register and then if they "miscarry" then an exam will be ordered.

    Women who have been found to have undergone abortion should be held as accomplices to murder, maybe conspirators as well, and then punished according to our preexisting laws on the subject.

    If I really feel abortion is murder, then it necessarily follows that the people responsible for the murder ought to be punished. Retributive punishment will deter and influence women away from baby-producing activities, and hopefully reduce the amount of abortions.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this issue.
     
  2. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Wow...

    [​IMG]

    I've had 7 losses in my reproductive life. Very glad that on top of that pain I didn't have to be treated like a criminal for it. My heart was broken enough.

    And I see a FSTDT submission in your future.
     
  3. yasic

    yasic Part time poster, Full time lurker

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    I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

    As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.
     
  4. Zeru

    Zeru one day at a time.

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    'Prosecute'...
    OP's issue was how to prove this beyond reasonable doubt. Heck, even probable cause would be hard to establish without a police officer witnessing the event. One almost never knows anything for a fact in the legal system...there are varying scales of certainty. A FACT is "It is impossible for two solid objects to occupy the same space." So on, so forth.
     
  5. Phronesis

    Phronesis Newbie

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    FSTDT?

    I'm deeply sorry for your losses, if it were up to me no one would ever experience such heartbreak, I just don't know how to reconcile the belief that abortion is every bit as immoral and undesirable as murder with the idea that we shouldn't punish the people who choose to bring it about.

    If abortion is murder, we should punish the murderers. We investigate peoples personal, private lives all the time in the effort to solve crimes; the more egregious the crime, the more we look the other way as privacy is invaded.

    I'm not proposing mandatory examinations to directly prevent murder; I see it more along the lines taking DNA from you to match it to a murder weapon.

    Modern society makes it OK for the state to violate your privacy in many ways to solve crimes and enact justice; why should such a heinous crime as infanticide get special treatment?
     
  6. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Maybe we should make pregnancy tests something you can only get from behind a pharmacy counter and you take the test right there and show it to the pharmacist who reads the result and, if you're pregnant, enters you into a national "you're pregnant" database and women have to register weekly, like sex offenders, to report the status of their pregnancy and if any woman experiences a loss, she'd be investigated.

    Because really, lets forget personal freedoms and right to privacy and innocent until proven guilty. Let's assume all women would abort all babies because women are all evil and they all hate children and would abort them the second they had the chance.

    /sarcasm
     
  7. yasic

    yasic Part time poster, Full time lurker

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    Then treat it like you would any other murder. If you find a murder weapon with blood, and you have good probable cause to think that a specific woman was the mother, get a warrant for her DNA.

    You can't force her DNA until a crime is committed, anymore than you can with any other criminal.
     
  8. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Fundies say the darndest things.

    While morally you or I may believe it to be akin to murder, the definition of murder is unlawful and intentional killing of another person. Because it is legal to get an abortion pre-viability, it isn't defined as murder anywhere other than in people's own personal moral code. So women can't be treated like criminals for getting pregnant.
     
  9. Wedjat

    Wedjat Spirited Apostate

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    Here's the thing though. Abortions aren't illegal. Some people may consider them morally equivalent to murder, but at the moment the law doesn't, so hypothesizing about how best to punish people who have abortions is kind of useless if abortions aren't illegal in the first place.
     
  10. Wedjat

    Wedjat Spirited Apostate

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    Never mind, beat me to it.
     
  11. Phronesis

    Phronesis Newbie

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    It would take very little effort to draft a law requiring hospitals to report women who were once pregnant but are no longer so.

    Don't you think a little loss of privacy is worth punishing and deterring the murderers of thousands of infants every year? Murder, especially of babies, is a heinous and unacceptable act. Something must be done! Where is the cry for justice for murderers?!
     
  12. Phronesis

    Phronesis Newbie

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    I would you hope you both understood that my hypothetical involved the assumption that abortion would have to be illegal for it to be murder in the legal sense. Obviously it isn't now, I'm discussing how it OUGHT to be.
     
  13. yasic

    yasic Part time poster, Full time lurker

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    Well, were assuming that a law passes making abortion illegal.

    I thought that hypothetical was obvious from the OP.


    EDIT: bah, beaten to it by the OP
     
  14. yasic

    yasic Part time poster, Full time lurker

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    I am not opposed, if a law gets passed making abortion illegal, to having hospitals report all terminated pregnancies, much like they report all gun shot wounds.

    This, however, still does not allow them to give away the patients DNA or anything of this sort (same deal with gun shot wounds).
     
  15. Wedjat

    Wedjat Spirited Apostate

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    oh ok. Well you're sort of jumping the gun then. Just because you say it "ought to be" doesn't make it so.
     
  16. yasic

    yasic Part time poster, Full time lurker

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    Well, ignore if it ought to be, and just assume that it will be. What is your answer then?
     
  17. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Which just means women like me would never in a million years go to a hospital or a doctor after a loss. Which would be great because potential complications and issues that arise after a loss wouldn't be diagnosed, and the required treatments after a loss, like a D&C wouldn't occur. I suspect you'll see the cases of treatable complications from loss absolutely skyrocket. Hemmorage, septic shock, infection...

    Do you know how many natural losses occur to women every year? Every day? Not only would the manpower for such a thing be nearly impossible, but no woman wants to be treated like a criminal for something that her body did, something that she had no control over. All that will happen is women who don't want to be pregnant won't go to a doctor when they suspect they are, and women who were pregnant and wanted to be but experienced a loss won't seek medical treatment because the pain of the loss paired with the assumption that she's a murderer is too stressful, painful, humiliating, and demeaning.

    Especially if you're "investigating" to see if she's at fault for unintentionally causing the loss. If I were to accidentally hit and kill somebody with my car, I'd be legally responsible. Logic would dictate that the "investigation" would also seek to uncover if she accidentally caused the death of her baby and if she should be punished for it. Then nobody would ever go to the doctor if they were pregnant. I know I wouldn't. In fact, I'd be terrified to ever see a doctor.
     
  18. Wedjat

    Wedjat Spirited Apostate

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    Actually if we're talking hypothetical, then I would be in agreement with Yasic. Hospitals can report terminated pregnancies. Mandatory uterine examination is going way to far though as far as personal privacy.
     
  19. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Ah. Then the thread is pointless.

    And while I don't think abortion is great, if this is what making abortion illegal would mean for women, I'd fight it tooth and nail, not because I agree with abortion but because of the stress and pain it'd put on a woman who lost a pregnancy. Nobody should ever, ever have to deal with that kind of treatment after a loss.
     
  20. Letalis

    Letalis New Member

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    Poe? Methinks so.
     
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