Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

Larniavc

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So I went and read Numbers 5. Thank You! I haven't read that in several months!

I take it you are assuming the bitter water is an abortive elixir of some sort? It never says that. Nothing about fruit of the womb departing, anything being expelled, or dying, or even pregnancy, such as "found with child."

It appears to be a curse that would fall from the LORD if the woman had cheated on her husband, via a miraculous means, as the mixture is holy water and dust from the floor of the Tabernacle. Doesn't exactly sound like a poisonous mixture, but let's see.

What herbs and incense were used that might be on the floor in small amounts, IF any may have spilled there:

Myrrh was used in the anointing oil, and myrrh can cause contractions.

Frankincense is no danger

Stacte is a resin, nothing about it being dangerous.

Onycha: we're not really sure what that was, from a flower, a snail, or is spikenard, and spikenard may cause miscarriage

Galbanum is an emmenagogue, which encourages menstruation, hence it is contraindicated for pregnancy.

Now, given that IF there were spilled incense on the floor mixed in with the dust, and most certainly there'd have been the oil as Psalm 133:2 indicates it ran down Aaron's head to his beard, so it was dripping, then there is a possibility the dust could have caused a miscarriage.

However, there's other things at play here which I would think show the mixture was not an abortive. The thigh to rot and the belly to swell was the curse, which sounds more like the woman would be accursed and defiled, so no one could touch her, if she had committed adultery.

There's also the fact that a woman doesn't get pregnant every time she has sexual relations, so in many cases a woman could sleep with another man and if she wasn't pregnant from him, this mixture obviously wouldn't cause an abortion. If she was pregnant, it may well have done so considering the symptoms, but that would only be a secondary affect of the curse. In that regard it would be a child conceived by adultery, which in David & Bathsheba's case their child died. God took the child as direct chastisement for their sin. (2 Samuel 12:14-19) God is sovereign and does as He pleases, and whatsoever He does is good.

This was also a ceremony under the Law which was commanded by God directly to Moses.
There is also Exodus 21:22, "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

Here someone that causes a miscarriage is punished, albeit according to what the woman's husband desires the punishment to be.
Numbers 5: 27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

This is clearly an abortion.
 
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Larniavc

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Here someone that causes a miscarriage is punished, albeit according to what the woman's husband desires the punishment to be.
So then a payment be made from the mother and the abortion is resolved. As per the Bible.
 
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Desk trauma

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Women need real help, not abortion.
Which is why states that banned abortion instantly passed legislation subsidizing daycare, paid maternity leave, coverage of pregnancy related medical care…wait that didn’t happen.
 
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RileyG

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Which is why states that banned abortion instantly passed legislation subsidizing daycare, paid maternity leave, coverage of pregnancy related medical care…wait that didn’t happen.
Which is sad. Some people don’t want to help others, I won’t disagree with that. Still doesn’t justify abortion, regardless.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I do not disagree with you that it should not taint those who have better motives.

Unfortunately it does taint the movement to some degree. Much like your analogy we are seeing push back on police precisely because there are those who abuse their position. In the same fashion pro-life has some taint due to those who are using it as a means to control female sexuality.
Nobody actually has any interest in - or possesses any ability to - "control female sexuality". That's simply not valid. The only issue ever to pro life people is whether a baby once conceived - and they do believe it is a baby, the same as every mom ever, if you ask her about her pregnancy - should get a chance to live, being a separate person. That's it.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Are you stuck in a time warp in some former century? Because in this country today, there are no limits - except conscience- on what sexual behavior any woman anywhere can engage in. Fact. No one can "control female sexuality".
 
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Belk

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Nobody actually has any interest in - or possesses any ability to - "control female sexuality". That's simply not valid.
<Looks at the roles of women throughout history> Do tell.

The only issue ever to pro life people is whether a baby once conceived - and they do believe it is a baby, the same as every mom ever, if you ask her about her pregnancy - should get a chance to live, being a separate person. That's it.
I do not think you have the capacity to speak for every pro life person. My experiences suggest that is not the only issue.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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<Looks at the roles of women throughout history> Do tell.


I do not think you have the capacity to speak for every pro life person. My experiences suggest that is not the only issue.
The roles of women in history have evolved steadily, especially in the last century. We have several women on the Supreme Court and in virtually every other office. They are definitely NOT being "controlled".

I am not speaking for "every" person; I am stating the primary argument for the pro-life stance: once a baby is conceived, it should get a chance to live.
 
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Belk

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The roles of women in history have evolved steadily, especially in the last century. We have several women on the Supreme Court and in virtually every other office. They are definitely NOT being "controlled".

You think because there are women in positions of power it means no one can control women? This does not strike me as the case. You do recognize that they were controlled in the past, yes?
I am not speaking for "every" person; I am stating the primary argument for the pro-life stance: once a baby is conceived, it should get a chance to live.

A much more succinct statement, however I would argue that it is not the goal of the pro-life movement. I would say the primary argument of the pro-life stance is "human induced abortion should not be legal".
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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You think because there are women in positions of power it means no one can control women? This does not strike me as the case. You do recognize that they were controlled in the past, yes?


A much more succinct statement, however I would argue that it is not the goal of the pro-life movement. I would say the primary argument of the pro-life stance is "human induced abortion should not be legal".
No one is controlling women now, that's for darn sure. Way back when they were traded for livestock? Maybe. We haven't been there ever in this country, but it happened and maybe happens now in countries where citizens don't have rights.

No, I stand on my more accurate comment. It's not about "abortion should not be legal" Why? Abortion doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have to answer the why.

It's because it ends an already conceived life, and many people feel that a child should get a chance to live.
 
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Belk

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No one is controlling women now, that's for darn sure. Way back when they were traded for livestock? Maybe. We haven't been there ever in this country, but it happened and maybe happens now in countries where citizens don't have rights.

I'm sorry. Are you seriously trying to claim that no one was controlling women when they tried to deny them the vote?
No, I stand on my more accurate comment. It's not about "abortion should not be legal" Why? Abortion doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have to answer the why.
Yet there seem to be so few in in the pro-life movement who are willing to address the underlying issues of why women choose abortion. Back when I was pro-life and suggested this as a path forward it was roundly condemned. That is why I find my statement to be much closer to the truth.
It's because it ends an already conceived life, and many people feel that a child should get a chance to live.
Where is all the pro-life money looking into natural abortions? If, as you claim this is the focus, shouldn't that be the number one priority since they account for the vast majority of abortions?
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I'm sorry. Are you seriously trying to claim that no one was controlling women when they tried to deny them the vote?

Yet there seem to be so few in in the pro-life movement who are willing to address the underlying issues of why women choose abortion. Back when I was pro-life and suggested this as a path forward it was roundly condemned. That is why I find my statement to be much closer to the truth.

Where is all the pro-life money looking into natural abortions? If, as you claim this is the focus, shouldn't that be the number one priority since they account for the vast majority of abortions?
No, you are correct that there was a long period of suffrage arguments and protests and lawsuits, including women and men. Then the women won the vote in 1920.

Why women choose abortion started out as a very noble argument, that it would only be used in dire situations, that it would be essentially, as Clinton put it, "safe, legal, and rare."

It's not rare. What, 63 MILLION babies have been killed even in just America. It's now a method of birth control to a faction, though for the life of me, I cannot figure out why that is ok. When we got to "Shout your abortion", that was just too far. Shout Your Abortion – Normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

 
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Belk

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No, you are correct that there was a long period of suffrage arguments and protests and lawsuits, including women and men. Then the women won the vote in 1920.

That strikes me as trying to control women. YMMV.
Why women choose abortion started out as a very noble argument, that it would only be used in dire situations, that it would be essentially, as Clinton put it, "safe, legal, and rare."

It's not rare. What, 63 MILLION babies have been killed even in just America. It's now a method of birth control to a faction, though for the life of me, I cannot figure out why that is ok. When we got to "Shout your abortion", that was just too far. Shout Your Abortion – Normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

The reason women choose abortion are neither noble nor ignoble. They are personal to reach and generally center around resources or the lack the of.

But I'm curious about your response to my question about natural abortions. If, as you claim, pro life is focused on the right to life why are they not addressing natural abortions?
 
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RileyG

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The roles of women in history have evolved steadily, especially in the last century. We have several women on the Supreme Court and in virtually every other office. They are definitely NOT being "controlled".

I am not speaking for "every" person; I am stating the primary argument for the pro-life stance: once a baby is conceived, it should get a chance to live.
Agreed. They have plenty of options. Birth control, abstinence, parenthood, or adoption. If they chose to have sex, then they need to accept the consequences of their actions. Terminating the pregnancy should not be one.
 
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RileyG

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That strikes me as trying to control women. YMMV.

The reason women choose abortion are neither noble nor ignoble. They are personal to reach and generally center around resources or the lack the of.

But I'm curious about your response to my question about natural abortions. If, as you claim, pro life is focused on the right to life why are they not addressing natural abortions?
Natural abortions (miscarriages) are not intentional- therefore, they are not the same at all. Not even related.
 
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