Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

[Larniavc]

Unforeseeably one of the people behind the overturning of Dobbs worries that women have been left to using potentially life threatening procedures to obtain abortions.

Is this a case of simply the 'consequences' of unprotected sex or was the reduction in abortions NOT the primary drive of the pro-life movement?

Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

The chairperson behind a group's legal opinion that was used to overturn federal abortion rights now worries that women will be left to "back-alley abortion butchers." Although Matt Staver's Liberty Counsel filed a brief to overturn Roe v. Wade, he believes women could be put in a worse...

www.rawstory.com

 

[PloverWing]

The end of the article has a video clip of Staver speaking on the issue. The headline makes it sound like Staver has regrets about his actions, but I don't think that's it. He's addressing the upcoming ballot question: "No law shall prohibit, penalize, delay or restrict abortion before viability or when necessary to protect the patient’s health, as determined by the patient’s health care provider." [Quote source: NY Times, April 1] He argues that if this passes, health and safety restrictions will be removed, so pregnant women will be at the mercy of unregulated back-alley abortion providers. He's using the back-alley abortion picture to convince voters to vote against the ballot question.

Staver's argument does not take into account that pregnant women are intelligent adults who generally will go to a reputable doctor's office or hospital for their health care, if that's an option. If a hospital or a Planned Parenthood clinic can legally provide abortion services, there's no reason to resort to a back-alley quack.

What Staver himself believes, I will not presume to say.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Unforeseeably one of the people behind the overturning of Dobbs worries that women have been left to using potentially life threatening procedures to obtain abortions.

Is this a case of simply the 'consequences' of unprotected sex or was the reduction in abortions NOT the primary drive of the pro-life movement?
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Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

The chairperson behind a group's legal opinion that was used to overturn federal abortion rights now worries that women will be left to "back-alley abortion butchers." Although Matt Staver's Liberty Counsel filed a brief to overturn Roe v. Wade, he believes women could be put in a worse...

www.rawstory.com

Too bad he did not think this way when he wrote his brief.

 

[Desk trauma]

So much wringing of hands now that they caught the car they were running after for decades screaming about murder, genocide, child sacrifice.

 

[Larniavc]

So much wringing of hands now that they caught the car they were running after for decades screaming about murder, genocide, child sacrifice.

I think this is a good example of how some the pro-life stanch simply does not comport with reality. To reduce abortions banning them simply does not achieve that goal.

Education and birth control are the only practical way forward. Telling people 'not to do it' (in whatever situation) will never work which should be obvious to anyone with a passing familiarity with what people are like.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Unforeseeably one of the people behind the overturning of Dobbs worries that women have been left to using potentially life threatening procedures to obtain abortions.

Is this a case of simply the 'consequences' of unprotected sex or was the reduction in abortions NOT the primary drive of the pro-life movement?

Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

The chairperson behind a group's legal opinion that was used to overturn federal abortion rights now worries that women will be left to "back-alley abortion butchers." Although Matt Staver's Liberty Counsel filed a brief to overturn Roe v. Wade, he believes women could be put in a worse...

www.rawstory.com

So, according to this source: One guy speculates that IF an initiative placed on the ballot changes abortion laws to more restrictive in Florida passes, THEN abortion would be harder or impossible to obtain, hence the "back alley" reference.

Your statement that "women have been left to using potentially life threatening procedures to obtain abortions" is not at all a current situation.

Only 2 days ago:
In a pair of significant decisions Monday, the Florida Supreme Court upheld a 15-week ban on abortion in the state while also allowing a proposed amendment that would enshrine abortion protections in the state constitution to appear on the November ballot.

The conservative-leaning court's decision on the 15-week ban also means that a six-week abortion ban, with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the woman, that Gov. Ron DeSantis signed into law last year will take effect. It is not in effect now.

Florida Supreme Court allows 6-week abortion ban to take effect, but voters will have the final say

The state Supreme Court ruled that a proposed amendment to enshrine abortion rights in the state constitution can appear on the ballot in November.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Desk trauma]

I think this is a good example of how some the pro-life stanch simply does not comport with reality. To reduce abortions banning them simply does not achieve that goal.

It satisfies the co-equal goal of punishing those who don’t adhere to their sexual ethics.

 

[PloverWing]

So, according to this source: One guy speculates that IF an initiative placed on the ballot changes abortion laws to more restrictive in Florida passes, THEN abortion would be harder or impossible to obtain, hence the "back alley" reference.

As I hear him, he's arguing that if the initiative placed on the ballot changes abortion laws to be LESS restrictive in Florida, then "back alley" abortions will be unregulated, and patients will then be in danger from these unregulated "back alley" practitioners.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

It satisfies the co-equal goal of punishing those who don’t adhere to their sexual ethics.

I think the objective is whether a baby should be able to have a chance at life once already conceived, not about sexual ethics at all.

No one is stopping anyone from almost any sexual behavior, certainly not today. There are about a dozen methods to prevent pregnancy today, and if one can't be bothered to use any of them, Plan B. Not to mention fertility is way down for various reasons.

That should be the goal, not elimination at will.

 

[Desk trauma]

I think the objective is whether a baby should be able to have a chance at life once already conceived, not about sexual ethics at all.

The conduct of the pro life movement demonstrates otherwise.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The conduct of the pro life movement demonstrates otherwise.

No, that is actually the entire point of the pro-life movement and their conduct supports that; babies should be allowed to live once conceived. There were occasional protests, mostly standing along roads with signs.

The conduct of the "shout your abortion" folks would demonstrate otherwise though.

Two of the T-shirts this activist organization sells:

"I will aid and abet abortion."

"God's Plan includes Abortion".

Shout Your Abortion – Normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

Shout Your Abortion is normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

shoutyourabortion.com

 

[Desk trauma]

No, that is actually the entire point of the pro-life movement

Again, their conduct demonstrates otherwise.

 

[Belk]

No, that is actually the entire point of the pro-life movement and their conduct supports that; babies should be allowed to live once conceived. There were occasional protests, mostly standing along roads with signs.

The conduct of the "shout your abortion" folks would demonstrate otherwise though.

Two of the T-shirts this activist organization sells:

"I will aid and abet abortion."

"God's Plan includes Abortion".

Shout Your Abortion – Normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

Shout Your Abortion is normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

shoutyourabortion.com

For some, even possibly the majority I would agree. However I have had personal experience with those who clearly had other motivations as they were not interested in tactics that would help reduce abortions but instead wanted to exert control over women.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Again, their conduct demonstrates otherwise.

And again, that is your impression for some reason you have not stated, but that is not reality. Check the pro-life sites for their missions.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

For some, even possibly the majority I would agree. However I have had personal experience with those who clearly had other motivations as they were not interested in tactics that would help reduce abortions but instead wanted to exert control over women.

Well, those people have their own personal issues that should not be attributed to the entire faction of people who believe babies should get a chance to live once conceived.

It's analogous to the argument that there are some cops who have committed criminal behavior so ...all cops are have bad motivations. Not so.

 

[Belk]

Well, those people have their own personal issues that should not be attributed to the entire faction of people who believe babies should get a chance to live once conceived.

It's analogous to the argument that there are some cops who have committed criminal behavior so ...all cops are have bad motivations. Not so.

I do not disagree with you that it should not taint those who have better motives.

Unfortunately it does taint the movement to some degree. Much like your analogy we are seeing push back on police precisely because there are those who abuse their position. In the same fashion pro-life has some taint due to those who are using it as a means to control female sexuality.

 

[Desk trauma]

And again, that is your impression for some reason you have not stated, but that is not reality. Check the pro-life sites for their missions.

They can say whatever they like in a mission statement their actions demonstrate otherwise.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Unforeseeably one of the people behind the overturning of Dobbs worries that women have been left to using potentially life threatening procedures to obtain abortions.

Is this a case of simply the 'consequences' of unprotected sex or was the reduction in abortions NOT the primary drive of the pro-life movement?

Man behind Dobbs decision now complains women being left to 'back-alley abortion butchers'

The chairperson behind a group's legal opinion that was used to overturn federal abortion rights now worries that women will be left to "back-alley abortion butchers." Although Matt Staver's Liberty Counsel filed a brief to overturn Roe v. Wade, he believes women could be put in a worse...

www.rawstory.com

All this does is prove the utter depravity of mankind. Murderers they are. I refuse to sugar coat this. Women who seek to kill their child are murderers, and anyone who assists them to carry out this butchery is also a murderer.

I did say when Roe was overturned that it would only bring out the true colors of the nation, and abortions would continue. Well they actually increased, especially with the pill poisoning, which falls under pharmakeus sorcery.

The pro life movement may have hoped to save some babies by getting women into pregnancy centers so they could bring the child to term, and there's been some of that.

Our nation is filled with murderous sinners, and even those who take pleasure in them who do it, though they don't do it themselves, are as guilty because they support it, as Romans 1 declares.

Problem is SIN, and the evil of abortion and all involved in it's heinous workings are killers of innocents, shedding innocent blood as Manasseh did in Judah, which brought the dread judgment upon Jerusalem, and so too will such judgment fall upon USA, for they do not repent, and have crossed the line and many are reprobate.

 

[Larniavc]

Well they actually increased, especially with the pill poisoning, which falls under pharmakeus sorcery.

I think you might need to re-read Numbers 5.

What say you?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I think you might need to re-read Numbers 5.

What say you?

So I went and read Numbers 5. Thank You! I haven't read that in several months!

I take it you are assuming the bitter water is an abortive elixir of some sort? It never says that. Nothing about fruit of the womb departing, anything being expelled, or dying, or even pregnancy, such as "found with child."

It appears to be a curse that would fall from the LORD if the woman had cheated on her husband, via a miraculous means, as the mixture is holy water and dust from the floor of the Tabernacle. Doesn't exactly sound like a poisonous mixture, but let's see.

What herbs and incense were used that might be on the floor in small amounts, IF any may have spilled there:

Myrrh was used in the anointing oil, and myrrh can cause contractions.

Frankincense is no danger

Stacte is a resin, nothing about it being dangerous.

Onycha: we're not really sure what that was, from a flower, a snail, or is spikenard, and spikenard may cause miscarriage

Galbanum is an emmenagogue, which encourages menstruation, hence it is contraindicated for pregnancy.

Now, given that IF there were spilled incense on the floor mixed in with the dust, and most certainly there'd have been the oil as Psalm 133:2 indicates it ran down Aaron's head to his beard, so it was dripping, then there is a possibility the dust could have caused a miscarriage.

However, there's other things at play here which I would think show the mixture was not an abortive. The thigh to rot and the belly to swell was the curse, which sounds more like the woman would be accursed and defiled, so no one could touch her, if she had committed adultery.

There's also the fact that a woman doesn't get pregnant every time she has sexual relations, so in many cases a woman could sleep with another man and if she wasn't pregnant from him, this mixture obviously wouldn't cause an abortion. If she was pregnant, it may well have done so considering the symptoms, but that would only be a secondary affect of the curse. In that regard it would be a child conceived by adultery, which in David & Bathsheba's case their child died. God took the child as direct chastisement for their sin. (2 Samuel 12:14-19) God is sovereign and does as He pleases, and whatsoever He does is good.

This was also a ceremony under the Law which was commanded by God directly to Moses.
There is also Exodus 21:22, "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

Here someone that causes a miscarriage is punished, albeit according to what the woman's husband desires the punishment to be.