Love Wins.

nill

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“Although God is powerful and mighty, when it comes to the human heart, God has to play by the same rules we do.[sup][1][/sup] God has to respect our freedom to choose to the very end,[sup][2][/sup] even at the risk of the relationship itself. If at any point God overrides, co-ops, or hijacks the human heart, robbing us of our freedom to choose, then God has violated the fundamental essence of what love even is.” —Rob Bell, Ch. 4, Love Wins

[1] - I don't recall ever reading that in God's Word anywhere.
[2] - Just like He did with Paul, right? And Lazarus?

Why, in both of these examples, is the focus on man, and not on God? Why does Bell not say that we are required to, I don't know, play by God's rules? Or that we must respect God's freedom to choose? That doesn't strike anyone as odd? Or heretical? It would seem neither our creatureliness is a factor in Bell's understanding of man, nor holiness a factor in Bell's understanding of God.
 
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tapi

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"The FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge." (Proverbs 1:7)

Apostle John tell us that He who still has fear has not yet been made perfect in love, because love drives out fear. Apostle Paul also tells us that we have not been given over in bondage to the spirit of fear.

In order to understand the true meaning of fear of God you have to look into the meaning of the actual words used for describing this fear in the original text, instead of a translation. Fear is used as an expression of either reverence or terror. In Hebrew, fear as terror is generally expressed by the words magor, and pacadh, and in Greek by the word phobos. Fear as reverence is expressed in Hebrew as yirah, and in Greek as eulabeia.

When we look at the Old Testament, we find that in almost all of the cases where the fear of God is talked about, the word used is yirah, which means great reverence, awe -- not terror. In regards to the scripture you pointed out, Proverbs 1:7, the word used is also yirah, great reverence.

"Without the SHEDDING OF BLOOD there is no remission of sins." (Hebrews 9:22)
"...you were BOUGHT with a PRICE." (1 Corinthians 6:20)

Jesus' death was PAYMENT for sin. Not because God is evil, but because God's holiness demands a sacrifice for sin. Before Jesus, the Jews had to kill animals for atonement for their sins. After Jesus, the price was paid "once for all" (Hebrews 10:10)

I have to attend to my studies now, but I will later share some thoughts in regards to the understanding of our salvation and our Lord's death, from an Orthodox Christian persepective in contrast to the western concept of juridical justification.
 
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MacFall

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You know what's funny to me? All of the people who publicly take issue with his book are helping his sales. I know I want to read the book to see what's true or not about it and the author's thoughts. Before I probably wouldn't have been interested and had only very vaguely heard of Rob Bell.

Yeah, I would never have even heard of the book if it hadn't been for people (who haven't read it) condemning it in my presence. Now I'm going to read it.
 
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Yeah, I would never have even heard of the book if it hadn't been for people (who haven't read it) condemning it in my presence. Now I'm going to read it.

Yeah I am curious of the theology behind it, and that curiosity is by and large fueled by people's intense dislike for it. :thumbsup:
 
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Themistocles

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My childhood church, which I still attended until about a year ago, was very big on Rob Bell- probably once a month we'd be shown a Nooma vid (short vid with Rob talking into the camera while doing strange things like bouncing a ball). I was of two minds about him. On the one hand, he's seriously charismatic and relatable. On the other hand he's seriously charismatic and relatable. I'm leery of churches and pastors that try too hard to be "hip" or "modern". That said, I liked him well enough and he usually wasn't saying anything I disagreed with per se. Flash Forward to Love Wins: I haven't read it yet though I probably will. But I have read a number of excerpts and articles both defending and attacking his thesis. My initial impression is that Bell is a universalist but the sort of universalist who, at the right angle, looks a bit like people and churches that, I think, aren't universalist (C.S. Lewis and The Catholic Church have been mentioned). I probably won't say more until I've had a chance to read it (which I may today if I can find an hour or two).
 
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Qyöt27

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I wouldn't be surprised if the single reason it's so controversial is more because of the usual dynamics between Emergents and their Evangelical parents. I'd probably be willing to take bets on most Mainline or Liturgical churches merely disagreeing with the methods used, but not necessarily the core of the topics. I've mentioned before that what the so-called 'Emergent Church' looks like to me are disillusioned Evangelicals that are transitioning into being Mainline, and it's simply a conflict of having to balance that Tradition with the vastly different experience one gets in Evangelical circles.

At least, that's the impression. I think it does explain why you see Evangelicals and Fundamentalists practically frothing at the mouth over the topic, but you ask someone from a Mainline church and they don't really see what the issue is, and may just think more of 'they're trying too hard' or that the approach needs work.



Like tapi was highlighting though, I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of it being an intrinsic difference between Eastern and Western Christianity. Most Protestant churches don't have exposure to the approaches used in Eastern Orthodoxy, save for the Wesleyan branch (when you really start digging into the theology, anyway - it's often not quite so apparent on the surface, although I'd argue it is still there subconsciously) and some segments of Anglicanism. So incorporating some of that into an otherwise-Evangelical setting is going to make for some huge contention.
 
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Themistocles

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So I went out and read Love Wins and re-read The Great Divorce to confirm my feeling that those conflating Bell and Lewis on salvation were wrong to do so (they are). Here are my thoughts.

Bell is clearly a universalist and he, in important but sometimes subtle ways, seriously misreads the Gospel narrative, but there's a good bit to like about the book. His discussion on the Kingdom of Heaven being in some sense "now" is in the right neighborhood and he corrects, cogently, the popular notion that our eternal resting place is somewhere else, off in the clouds, or that we'll be disembodied spirits forever. And there are some bits about resurrection leading to new life, and the importance of recognizing symbolism, and an interesting discussion (in the chapter There Are Rocks Everywhere) on being saved through Christthough you've never heard his name- a notion a great number of orthodox, non-unversalist Christians have accepted throughout the centuries.

Now to the bad. I'll just point to 4 things because A.) I didn't actually buy the book (read it at B&N) so I'm going off of memory, B.) It cites a great number of verses, mostly in rapid succession and in snippets, and it was hard to tell, as I was reading it, if they'd been taken out of context or how many verses he'd left out that cut against this thesis. I'll leave that analysis to biblical scholars and just look at 3 of the stories he discussed in detail and the chapter that forms the heart of his argument. First the stories. Lazarus, Abraham, and the Rich Man; The Rich Man who asks how he can get eternal life; and The Prodigal Son.

In the first, the Rich Man, who didn't help Lazarus in life, even though the dogs licked his sores (had compassion on him), is in hell and begs Abraham to let Lazarus (who is in heaven) bring him water. Here's Abraham (Luke 16:25-26): But Abraham replied, Son remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone else cross over from there to us.

When the rich man further asks Abraham to let Lazarus go back to earth and warn his family to repent, he gets this reply (Luke 16:31): He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

Bell does something extraordinarily odd with this story. First, he folds it into a larger narrative he's making, about how God does the unexpected things when rewarding people - (the Rich Man is punished, Lazarus- filthy, sore-covered Lazarus- is rewarded) which happens to be true, but not really in the way Bell supposes. But he forgets, or ignores, or has something very silly to say (I don't recall which) about the part I've highlighted- the part about their being an uncrossable chasm between Lazarus (in heaven) and the rich man (in hell). This seems important. And it doesn't really help a universalist to note that there isn't a literal chasm. Abraham is plainly saying that there is no communication between heaven and hell. Bell's only response, as best as I can remember, is that there's an uncrossable chasm because the rich man, in asking Lazarus to bring him water, is still clinging to his earthly status (i.e, Lazarus is still my servant and should do what I say). Which, I'm sorry, is an interpretation that can't be taken seriously.

But more extraordinary is the second thing he does with this story: he sort of skips to the end, and notes that the bit about not believing even after seeing a resurrection is really a prefiguring of the resurrection. This is, no doubt, quite true but Bell apparently completely misses its implication. If the Rich Man's family wouldn't repent even after seeing a resurrection, and if the resurrection Abraham mentions is Christ's resurrection, then clearly some people won't repent even after seeing Christ's resurrection. And they will end up with the Rich Man.

Next, Bell takes on the story of the Rich Man asking Christ how he can obtain eternal life. You know the one. Christ names some commandments, the rich man says he's kept those commandments, and then Christ says "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Bell concludes, rightly, that we all have different hurdles to cross, and that wealth was the rich man's. But then he insists that Jesus is telling this parable not because the rich man actually needs to give up his possessions (or, metaphorically, surrender that which keeps him worldly) to inherit internal life but because if the rich man doesn't he won't have as much responsibility in heaven. This is not even hinted at in the text. The only part that could even suggest it, to the wandering eye, is the word "treasures", but this is clearly an example of parallelism (i.e, you're giving up insubstantial treasure to get everlasting treasure)- not an indication that the rich man worries he'll end up the water-boy of heaven.

Finally, Bell tackles the Prodigal son, and contrasts the son who stayed home with the one who went away. The one who stayed home and followed all the rules is at the banquet and unhappy because the father has welcomed the prodigal son home as though he'd never left. This, Bell insists, is hell. Being at the banquet, but being unable to enjoy it because you're caught up with stuff that doesn't matter. And getting to heaven is accepting God's narrative for your life- one in which you're loved, and precious, and can come home at any time and realize the forgiveness your father has already given you. The prodigal son thought he deserved to be a servant in his father's fields. He realized he deserved much more, in spite of his sins.

This is such a bad misreading of this most famous of stories it's hard to know where to begin. The elder son's reaction is a warning to religious folks not to resent those who've come late to the banquet- that part of the story is a direct analogue to the parable of workers in the vineyard. It has nothing to do with personal hell's and the older son is not a villain or one of the religious hypocrites Jesus so scorned. It's simply a message that home matters, not when or how you got there. Which takes us to where Bell really goes wrong: home matters. The first half of Luke 15, the part about the lost sheep and the lost coin, is a story of God's how franatically God tries to bring us home; the second half is the story about, once we decide to come back home, how completely he washes away the past. But repenteth we must. Come home we must. Going back to the parable of the vineyards, the landowner pays all of the workers, even the one's who came late, an equal wage. But there's no suggestion he paid those who didn't come at all. Of course, it may well be that ultimately everyone came- the story doesn't say and so we don't know. At any rate, one has to show up for work; has to come home.

But where, you might wonder, does Bell specifically espouse universalism? And why? What is his argument? The crux of it can be found in the chapter, "Does God Get What God Wants?" Here Bell suggests that, because the Bible says that God "desires that all should be saved", and because God is all powerful, God would not create a system in which all wouldn't be saved. Eventually. Maybe they'll suffer for awhile in a hell of their own making, here on earth and then later in the life to come, but eventually they'll come home.

To this I say that God does not "get" anything. God is outside of time and outside of space. In order to "get" something you must have a future. God doesn't. Similarly, God does not really "want" anything. It is silly to think of God as off somewhere hatching plans or moving chess pieces to bring a grand strategy to fruition. When Bell suggests, tongue-in-cheek, that maybe God is only sort of great because he ultimately fails in achieving one of his wants he is, I'm sorry to say, talking nonsense.

Words like want, when applied to God, are attempts to explain the divine nature in a way we- who are not outside of time and space, and are frequently disappointed or angry or frustrated, or happy or sad- can understand. "Wanting all to be saved" probably translates to something like, "it is in the nature of the Supreme Good to be united with itself" which makes sense if we look at it sort of slantwise, but doesn't really clarify things. So God is not a failure if he "wants" everyone saved but everyone isn't saved; because God "wants" other things as well- or rather, other things go into the divine nature. A sensible attempt to make sense of the Divine Nature tries to reconcile the different aspects of God. Bell just flattens the whole gospel narrative and presses into service of his salvation doctrine. Which is ironic because he spends much of the book railing against Christians who ignore other aspects of the Bible to focus on salvation.

Finally, I'd like to say something about C.S. Lewis and the frequent insistence, from Bell defenders, that C.S. Lewis believed more or less the same thing. It isn't so. There are similarities but the differences are pretty much at the center of the biblical narrative. First the similarities. C.S. Lewis clearly seems to believe that we may be able to "choose" heaven or hell after we die. It's also obvious, from The Great Divorce, that Lewis leans towards Hell being primarily a state of mind. Lewis's character at one point asks his guide (it's a kind of Divine Comedy thing) if Heaven and Hell are just state's of mind and the guide replies with something like, "oh yes, hell is a state of mind, if you like, but heaven is very real".

But there are three enormous differences. One, for Lewis, there's a real separation between Hell/Purgatory and Heaven. It's not simply a case, as it is for Bell, of being in heaven (at the banquet) and not liking it because you choose to hang onto to your own stuff.

Two, although you can still "choose" to repent, accept Christ, after you die, there's a sense in which that choice isn't much of a choice. Something has happened. Almost without exception the people in Hell scarcely recognize Heaven and are continually misunderstanding the people who are trying to lead them there. It's as if they've been severed from understanding. There's all sorts of talk about "how foggy" everything is in hell- theological societies where everyone keeps getting muddled, people wandering aimlessly. At one point Lewis encounters a woman he calls a "grumbler", and he says, surely she'll eventually get to heaven, with such a small separation from God as that. Here's the discussion between Lewis and his guide:

"The question is whether she is a grumbler, or only a grumble. If there is a real woman -- even the least trace of one -- still there inside the grumbling, it can be brought to life again. If there's one wee spark under all those ashes, we'll blow it till the whole pile is red and clear. But if there's nothing but ashes we'll not go on blowing them in our own eyes forever. They must be swept up."

"But how can there be a grumble without a grumbler?"

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences... it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine."

Which brings us to the final difference. In Lewis's hell, it's always evening. And there's forever a rumor, among it's residents, that evening will one day turn to night. This is patently a metaphor for a point of no return. Perhaps judgment day. Perhaps something else. At any rate, Lewis anticipates the possibility that one day night will descend and rain will fall and those who have not chosen right will be left out in the cold and dark.

Like I said, these are enormous differences. Lewis leaves room for sin's power to separate us so that, while we have a choice, we no longer understand the options; we're muddled, everything is foggy, and all that we clung to in life stays with us forever.
 
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SullivanZ

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By this logic, because God is love, God cannot demand anything, therefore all His commandments are just "suggestions" and Jesus' death was nothing, because sin didn't demand the sacrifice of His death.

Mmhmm. Got it.

God doesn't "demand". Anymore than a husband ought to DEMAND his wife to obey him.
 
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SullivanZ

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But if a person repents and turns to God only through fear and terror, their repentance could never be an authentic attempt to reconcile ourselves with God and come to communion with Him, but only be a self-serving attempt to avoid these horrors.

Christ died to save us by conquering the power of death, not by paying off an evil God, who had to have vengeange and could not give forgiveness.

Correct.

This is why I am Orthodox in my theology. :)

God bless you.:crosseo:
 
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SullivanZ

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You know what's funny to me? All of the people who publicly take issue with his book are helping his sales. I know I want to read the book to see what's true or not about it and the author's thoughts. Before I probably wouldn't have been interested and had only very vaguely heard of Rob Bell.

Bad PR is better than NO PR.

But I'm okay with that, since his book doesn't sound offensive to me in the slightest.

God IS Love. Only a judgmental, fundamentalist, bigot would be offended at such a juncture.

Now, I'm not saying hell is not real. But I shudder at those who think that hell's existence is something to REJOICE over! Ughh.
 
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I only heard of Rob Bell a few weeks ago. Never heard his sermons, read his books or have seen pro Vs con articles.

Basically, I know nothing. But I would be interested in someone telling me the context and final thought surrounding this quote I found from the book:

A staggering number of people have been taught that a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better. It’s been clearly communicated to many that this belief is a central truth of the Christian faith and that to reject it is, in essence, to reject Jesus. This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus’ message of love, peace, forgiveness, and joy that our world desperately needs to hear
 
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He.Loves.You

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God doesn't "demand". Anymore than a husband ought to DEMAND his wife to obey him.

The 10 Demandments come to mind.
I think the point is that God is love, but not solely love. This was, perhaps, Lucifer's error. How can a creature expect to be able to best his all-powerful creator? No chance, right? Well, God loves me too much to do anything, so I'll just take His throne while He stands aside handcuffed by love...
 
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MacFall

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I think the point is that God is love, but not solely love.

Nothing can be anything other than itself. If God IS Love, then everything about God - including his sense of justice - is also a part of love. Which means that our concept of Justice must concur with the nature of Love as revealed to us in the scriptures, particularly through Jesus Christ. And while that does not necessarily preclude the doctrine of Hell, it does throw a wet blanket on some of man's enthusiasm for the idea of eternal punishment. I believe in Hell, but I also think that many Christians, upon reaching Heaven will, like Jonah, find themselves frustrated at the extent of God's love because it conflicts with what they believe justice ought to be.
 
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Qyöt27

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I only heard of Rob Bell a few weeks ago. Never heard his sermons, read his books or have seen pro Vs con articles.

Basically, I know nothing. But I would be interested in someone telling me the context and final thought surrounding this quote I found from the book:

A staggering number of people have been taught that a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better. It’s been clearly communicated to many that this belief is a central truth of the Christian faith and that to reject it is, in essence, to reject Jesus. This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus’ message of love, peace, forgiveness, and joy that our world desperately needs to hear
Note: I've not read the book. However, the above excerpt is very similar to the position that states, in other words, that the ones finding themselves in Heaven (and by extension, Hell) may not precisely meet the criteria some churches have set down. That the actual act of salvation is determined entirely by God's grace, not by Man's theology, and thus it's at God's sole discretion who gets in. This isn't related to predestination, since it has to do with what criteria a person meets to be 'saved', not whether there's such a thing as an Elect and various other things found in Calvinism.

Basically, Man cannot presume to predict all whom God will save. It's usually used as an argument against churches that hold to a very exclusivist, very formulaic belief in salvation. It's not universalism, but I know that churches who do hold to very exclusivist ideas about salvation would try to cast it that way, or claim their opponent's stance is a dynamic between faith and works that doesn't actually exist in the churches they're attacking.

Usually there's a strong correlation between non-exclusivity and doctrine relating to salvation's intersection with Accountability as it corresponds to things like the sacrament of baptism or one's Confirmation.



If Bell is promoting the 'Hell as penance' idea, then yeah, that's pretty universalist. And quite frankly, I don't see the point since that essentially turns Hell into Purgatory (not quite, though, as Purgatory is for those who have already been saved).
 
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SullivanZ

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The 10 Demandments come to mind.
I think the point is that God is love, but not solely love. This was, perhaps, Lucifer's error. How can a creature expect to be able to best his all-powerful creator? No chance, right? Well, God loves me too much to do anything, so I'll just take His throne while He stands aside handcuffed by love...

So, when I am married, I can acceptably demand whatever I want from my wife? Cool. I'll keep that in mind. Better yet, once you're married, you try that and let me know how it goes for you.

Lucifer's error was pride and wanting to be God. Not in believing God was loving. :/

So for Christians to believe 1 John 4:8, we are going to wind up the way of Lucifer, huh? Really.

Your username contradicts your very point, BTW. It should say, "He.Demands.From.You"
 
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Qyöt27;57169131 said:
Note: I've not read the book. However, the above excerpt is very similar to the position that states, in other words, that the ones finding themselves in Heaven (and by extension, Hell) may not precisely meet the criteria some churches have set down. That the actual act of salvation is determined entirely by God's grace, not by Man's theology, and thus it's at God's sole discretion who gets in. This isn't related to predestination, since it has to do with what criteria a person meets to be 'saved', not whether there's such a thing as an Elect and various other things found in Calvinism.

Basically, Man cannot presume to predict all whom God will save. It's usually used as an argument against churches that hold to a very exclusivist, very formulaic belief in salvation. It's not universalism, but I know that churches who do hold to very exclusivist ideas about salvation would try to cast it that way, or claim their opponent's stance is a dynamic between faith and works that doesn't actually exist in the churches they're attacking.

Usually there's a strong correlation between non-exclusivity and doctrine relating to salvation's intersection with Accountability as it corresponds to things like the sacrament of baptism or one's Confirmation.



If Bell is promoting the 'Hell as penance' idea, then yeah, that's pretty universalist. And quite frankly, I don't see the point since that essentially turns Hell into Purgatory (not quite, though, as Purgatory is for those who have already been saved).

Bell doesn't even believe in Hell as penance- he simply thinks that we choose our own hells, here and in the life to come, and that not only will we always have the opportunity to make another choice, but we will, ultimately, make another choice because God wants us to and God gets what he wants. Hell is being at the banquet (as the older son was) and refusing to enter because your brother has gotten something you don't think he deserves. Or something to that effect. It's very odd because, on the one hand, Bell strenuously defends human freedom, rebelling against the idea that God could take away our choice by casting us into perdition, but on the other hand he seems pretty darn sure that we'll all eventually choose the beatific vision. So a choice that isn't much of a choice.

To be fair, all Christianity depends on the idea that, in some sense, God invades the world and us to change us. We're born again. We're told to give up our possessions, abandon our worldliness. Give up the world to gain the world. All things we'd rather not do. So freedom has to be, in the Christian scheme, has to come with a transformed will- yes, we have freedom, but when we're in Christ we find that we want what God wants. What Bell doesn't consider is that it might go the other way. If we can live in Christ and see our will transformed without doing any damage to our freedom, then surely we can die without Christ and find that Heaven no longer makes any sense to us. This is essentially what Lewis envisions in The Great Divorce. There's a bus in hell, anyone can take it to Heaven (though they don't recognize it as that), but when they get there they find that everything is strange. And when angels try to explain just what is going on they reply, "oh yes, but I have a debating society down there. We're trying to figure out what God's like. I must push off". There's a disconnect.

I don't know if Bell just has a bad imagination and is sincerely unable to imagine something theologians have been explaining cogently for millenia (how free will can be reconcile with transforming faith) or if he's acting in bad faith because he simply doesn't like traditional prospectives on hell. But what comes out is a series of doctrines which, while they bear a passing resemblance to recognizable Christianity, make the gospel narrative muddled and incoherent.

I do agree with MacFall though. Christians shouldn't focus so much on hell and we have no business wishing anyone there. I intensely dislike the modern evangelical focus on soteriology. But there are other alternatives to a brand of Protestantism which has sprung up, primarily in the US, over the last 100 years- one doesn't have to rewrite essential elements of the faith. If the emergent church hopes to emerge without more unpleasantness, it'll have to learn to define itself positively and not against a caricature of a narrow brand of the evangelical movement.

Oh, and by the by...let's give Rob Bell credit. He's brilliant at marketing. The title alone: any writer would give their left arm (you can type ok with one) for a title like that.
 
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Qyöt27

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Yeah, the way it seems to have framed in terms of the banquet seems a bit...flat, I guess. The most interesting perspective on Hell I've encountered (and still seemed within a mainstream of thought) is the idea that Hell is what those who have rejected God feel when in His presence, as they've closed themselves off and His love then is felt to them as pain and suffering. I'm not sure where exactly I heard that from, though.

And doubly agreed on the point that our focus should not be on Hell - a faith borne of fear is a house built on sand.
 
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He.Loves.You

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So, when I am married, I can acceptably demand whatever I want from my wife? Cool. I'll keep that in mind. Better yet, once you're married, you try that and let me know how it goes for you.

Lucifer's error was pride and wanting to be God. Not in believing God was loving. :/

So for Christians to believe 1 John 4:8, we are going to wind up the way of Lucifer, huh? Really.

Your username contradicts your very point, BTW. It should say, "He.Demands.From.You"

I'm not following how, because God has the right to demand certain things from us, that I now have the ability to demand things from my wife. I am not God. Also, how is God demanding that we not steal or covet unloving?

Lucifer's original sin was pride, saying "I will be like the most High". Lucifer is not stupid: how do you think Lucifer believed he could carry out his plan to "be like the most High?" Can the finite surround the infinite? Can the comparably weak defeat the omnipotent? Can a creature that is loved by God try to win on a technicality, hedging a bet that God loves me too much to destroy me or thwart my attempt to usurp His throne? I'm not saying that is what Lucifer's plan was, but it seems plausible.
 
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Qyöt27;57170259 said:
Yeah, the way it seems to have framed in terms of the banquet seems a bit...flat, I guess. The most interesting perspective on Hell I've encountered (and still seemed within a mainstream of thought) is the idea that Hell is what those who have rejected God feel when in His presence, as they've closed themselves off and His love then is felt to them as pain and suffering. I'm not sure where exactly I heard that from, though.

That is pretty close to the understanding of hell in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The concencus of the Church Fathers agrees with this as well.

God reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God's splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

Here is a quote from a previous post, with a very short and limited wrap up of the concept of hell in the early Christian Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Church:

This is indeed a very deep subject and can be and has been approached from various different aspects and standpoints. It would be way beyond my capabilities in theological thinking and knowledge to break down such a huge subject totally, but here are some basic considerations:

First of all, I would suggest that the general western understanding of hell is not the traditional view held by the early church, but developed rather late from literalisation of metaphor and syncretising Christianity with a pagan concept of hell around year 1000.

When we look at what the Church Fathers taught about the nature of hell we see that they understood hell rather as a sort of psychological condition in which the judgement is done by our own conscience, instead of as a physical place -- not as a torture chamber our loving God created, knowing that he would eternally punish the majority of his creation there with incomprehensible torment and horror.

Paradise and hell are actually the same place. They are both being in the presence of our Lord; For those who love the Lord, His Presence will be infinite joy, paradise and eternal life. For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be "hell" and eternal death.


"... those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (St. Isaac of Syria)"
 
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