Literal or symbolic return of Christ?

[rick357]

They go and become part of a cloud.

12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

I agree that this is true yet it does not mean there is not a literal return...
you men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I agree that this is true yet it does not mean there is not a literal return...
you men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven

The virgins are awake, and everyone will see them shining after most every Egyptian has been killed.

The people who say,'' Jesus Jesus,'' who teach his name in the streets, they will weep and gnash their teeth at the shining of the virgins who receive.

What have the wise received?

They have received something that makes the entire globe gather the wealth of the world to bring and put at the feet of Israel.


But the people who do not receive will weep saying,'' Give unto us.''

But they will hear,'' O NO, lest there be not enough for us.''

These people partake in the giving of the spirit in the fall, and when they have received the spirit, it will not be shared hand to hand like the first giving of the spirit.

But God has come to dwell in his people.

 

[MWood]

Zec 14:4 says Jesus will literally stand on the Mount of Olives.

 

[dfw69]

Zec 14:4 says Jesus will literally stand on the Mount of Olives.

I vote literal...

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Zec 14:4 says Jesus will literally stand on the Mount of Olives.

What does Mount Olives symbolize?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I agree that this is true yet it does not mean there is not a literal return...
you men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven

Men of Galilee.

The Return of the Son of Man
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.…


Just as the lightning comes from Judah, and reaches all the way to Ephraim, so too will the coming of the Lord be.

Jesus took two men and made them one.

There is no more slave or free man because all are slave in the flesh, and all are free in the spirit.

There is no more male of female because all are female by the flesh, and all have a hidden man within them.

Jesus brought a new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and the two become one, and the two symbolize one.

That Israel is the flesh, and Judah is the hidden man of the heart.

If Jesus comes as the lightning comes from the east to the west, he has come to the hidden man of the heart and his brightness will pass through the flesh.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM.


Mourning for the One They Pierced

10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM.YOU.


Mourning for the One They Pierced

10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

First the above happens, and then this happens.

First, God comes to Judah, and Judah becomes like God, like the angel of the Lord who stands before God.

And then Jesus comes with the saints, and these he has wrapped around him.


The Lord Comes and Reigns

1A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquakea in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him

 

[aniello]

Literal.

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

The destruction of the man of sin will come from Christ first by consuming him with the Sword of his Mouth...which is the Word of God. Then his destruction will come by the brightness of Christ's return. The Word begins to eat away his flesh and then his soul will be destroyed by the Brightness ( τρόμος, ου, ὁ appearing, manifestation, glorious display) of Christ's return .

This appears to be symbolic but having a literal manifestation on that Wicked One.
2 thessalonians

 

[Dave-W]

Literal. On the Mount of Olives. Big earthquake and the mountain split. (Zech 14)

The Jews in Jerusalem will declare "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" (Matt 23)

 

[daq]

Zec 14:4 says Jesus will literally stand on the Mount of Olives.

Yeshua is the Father in your understanding?

Literal. On the Mount of Olives. Big earthquake and the mountain split. (Zech 14)

The Jews in Jerusalem will declare "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" (Matt 23)

When you say literal do you mean physical as being seen by the eyes of the flesh of man?
How can this be physical when the Father is non-corporeal Spirit?

This is symbolic prophetic language:

Zechariah 14:3-4 The Scriptures (ISR 1998) Zechariah 14 The Scriptures
3. And יהוה shall go forth, and He shall fight against those gentiles, as He fights in the day of battle.
4. And in that day His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives, which faces Yerushalayim on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, a very great valley, and half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:3-4 Restored Name KJV Zechariah 14
14:3 Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And one of the ways we can verify that this is not literal in the physical sense is by what other prophets have said about similar events using the same terminology concerning the Father, (i.e. "feet"). Nahum says that the clouds are the dust of his feet:

Nahum 1:1-3 Restored Name KJV Nahum 1
1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
1:2 El is jealous, and YHWH revengeth; YHWH revengeth, and is furious; YHWH will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
1:3 YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: YHWH hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Matthew 17:1-5 KJV
1. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2. And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luke 9:33-35 KJV
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

2 Peter 1:14-20 KJV
14. Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[Dave-W]

When you say literal do you mean physical as being seen by the eyes of the flesh of man?
How can this be physical when the Father is non-corporeal Spirit?

Not the Father - Yeshua the Son stands on Mount of Olives.

Yeshua the Messiah is the same - yesterday today and forever. That includes a physical presence.

And one of the ways we can verify that this is not literal in the physical sense is by what other prophets have said about similar events using the same terminology concerning the Father, (i.e. "feet"). Nahum says that the clouds are the dust of his feet:

But there is also this:

Acts 1:9 (NASB) And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This [Yeshua,] who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

Same way - in a cloud. A literal cloud.

 

[daq]

Not the Father - Yeshua the Son stands on Mount of Olives.

So then Yeshua is the Father in your understanding also?
The Scripture surely tells me that YHWH is my heavenly Father:

Isaiah 63:16-19 Restored Name KJV Isaiah 63
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

 

[Dave-W]

So then Yeshua is the Father in your understanding also?

No. Yeshua is the Son.

The Scripture surely tells me that YHWH is my heavenly Father:

Yud Hey Vav Hey is God: Father Son and Spirit.

Shma Yisrael Adonai (Father) Elohenu (Son) Adonai (Spirit) echad.

The three are distinct but are still one.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

What are these two olive trees?

Revelation 11

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.…


Again,'' What are these two olive trees, and where do they stand?''

Zechariah`The Gold Lampstand
…3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side." 4Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, "What are these, my lord?" 5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."…6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.…


Again, what are these two olive trees?

The Gold Lampstand
… 7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'" 8Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying,…

 

[daq]

No. Yeshua is the Son.

Yud Hey Vav Hey is God: Father Son and Spirit.

Shma Yisrael Adonai (Father) Elohenu (Son) Adonai (Spirit) echad.

The three are distinct but are still one.

That is only your opinion, (and in my opinion nothing more than word games). Please provide Scripture evidence otherwise I go with what is written. In addition Jeremiah 3 tells me that the only way I can be placed among the sons is to repent and acknowledge YHWH as my Father. I do not need to quote Rashi because the meaning of the passage is plain but I do so just to show that this is not simply my own understanding of the passage:

Yirmiyahu 3:1-4 CJB
1. [I have] to say; If a man sends away his wife, and she goes away from him, and marries another man, may he return to her again? Will not the land become defiled? But you have played the harlot [with] many lovers, yet return to Me, says the Lord.
2. Lift up your eyes upon the rivulets and see, where have you not been lain with? By the roads you sat for them like an Arab in the desert, and you defiled the land with your harlotries and with your evil.
3. And the rains were withheld, and there has been no latter rain, and you had a harlot's forehead; you refused to be ashamed.
4. Will you not from this time call me, "My Father, You the Master of my youth."

Rashi
Will you not from now: If only you repent of your evil and call me “My Father.” If you do so, will your Lord bear a grudge forever for what you have sinned? Will He keep it to eternity? He will not keep it.
Yirmiyahu - Chapter 3 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Yirmiyahu 3:19 CJB
19. And I said: How shall I place you among the sons? But I will give you a desirable land, an inheritance of the beauty of hosts of nations, and I said: Call Me 'my Father,' and do not turn away from following Me.

YHWH is my heavenly Father
Yeshua was not ashamed to call those willing to be sanctified his brethren . . .

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Luke 16

18“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

 

[rick357]

Luke 16

18“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So Paul says the old man must be crucified with Yeshua so that we may be one in him

 

[HannibalFlavius]

So Paul says the old man must be crucified with Yeshua so that we may be one in him

You mean pertaining to the above scripture?

Yes, we must die daily, but the scripture I quoted is not about a real man marrying a real woman.

Jesus didn't just toss that scripture in their out of context.

You are in a marriage right now.

When one reads the laws of Marriage in the law, they were not really made to show a man and a women, but a marriage that is between flesh and spirit.