Literal or symbolic return of Christ?

[walkinginthelightnow]

Much of the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. Could Christ's return also be symbolic? I have heard debates from all sides and still can't come to a solid understanding as to how Christ will return. Does he come back in judgment and redemption for the individual or the whole?

 

[daq]

Much of the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. Could Christ's return also be symbolic? I have heard debates from all sides and still can't come to a solid understanding as to how Christ will return. Does he come back in judgment and redemption for the individual or the whole?

Is the good news of the kingdom individual or all at once in full wealth the world over?

Luke 19:11-28 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear ["parachrema" ~ "immediately in full richness"].
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy [trade] till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21. For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24. And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds).
26. For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28. And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

The above parable speaks precisely to what you ask because it speaks first of the kingdom of God immediately appearing all at once, (in full wealth) and Yeshua refutes that notion. Likewise it speaks of the time and what we are to be doing while the "nobleman is away in a far journey" to receive a kingdom. The nobleman commands his servants before going away and then returns at a later unspecified time. Then he commands his servants to be brought before him. Then they begin to come before him each in his or her appointed times: "Then came the first, then came the second, and another then came," and so on and so on. And each and every one of them is personal and individual before the Bema.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Much of the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. Could Christ's return also be symbolic? I have heard debates from all sides and still can't come to a solid understanding as to how Christ will return. Does he come back in judgment and redemption for the individual or the whole?

Revelation is the keys in viewing how to walk in a plan.

If Jesus comes in the clouds, he has come in a cloud of witnesses, believers.

I tend to look at the second coming as if it is a repeat of the first coming, only on a much grander scale.

John was sent alone to bring back respect for Torah, and to prepare gentiles for a marriage of redemption into Israel.

But where I see one man in the first coming, I see multitudes of Elijahs all saying and doing the same thing.


And where I see Jesus coming as a single person, I would see multitudes coming being filled with that same spirit.

We see Jesus die and resurrected 3 and a half days later, and in Revelation we see the saints also being put to death and being resurrected.


And where I would see Jesus coming to the Jews, I see a complete reversal where the gentiles are in the Jews place, and Jesus coming against those shepherds now in place.


The overcomers gain the same promises that were given to Jesus by his father, he gives to his overcomers.

''They will rule the nations with a rod of Iron.''

God will say to them,'' This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.''

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

So...prior to one's physical death, He or she can be summoned by God to give an account for what he has done with his "pound" per say, and can be found wanting.

So basically Christ comes back for the individual in judgment but for the whole in redemption.?? Am I understanding this correctly?

If that is the case, I wonder why Christ similarized his return as the Days of Noah and the Destructions of Sodom and Gomorrah. These returns in judgment wiped out the whole...rather than each individual at his appointed time.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

So...prior to one's physical death, He or she can be summoned by God to give an account for what he has done with his "pound" per say, and can be found wanting.

So basically Christ comes back for the individual in judgment but for the whole in redemption.?? Am I understanding this correctly?

If that is the case, I wonder why Christ similarized his return as the Days of Noah and the Destructions of Sodom and Gomorrah. These returns in judgment wiped out the whole...rather than each individual at his appointed time.

They were loaded two by two into the ark.

A male, and a female.

Noah and his sons show a level{they also had to be male and female} on the ark above the animals, but the animals represent people.


There shall be two men in a bed, one taken, and the other left behind.


The problem here is that it is two men, not a man and a woman.

Two men will not enter the ark, and two women will not enter the ark.


Are you in a righteous marriage of flesh and spirit?

Have you made your flesh submit to the spirit as a woman would submit to her husband?

Then if you have not submitted to your husband, it's because you wont submit as a loyal wife, and instead, you wont to rule, and so there is two men.

And where there is two women, there is no leader.

So it will be as the days of Noah, 2 by 2 they shall come.


At first glance, I would say that a gentile needs a Jew, and a Jew needs a gentile, but the deeper significance is within you, and whether or not you are in a marriage under submission.

I think.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Matthew 24

Jesus coming to break in the house of those who do not know the times and seasons of their Lord.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?


The servant has to know the visitation days of his master, and if he does not watch, and if he does not know the feast days, that servant will be cut in half, And then the kingdom of heaven will be as ten virgins.



Here are some questions.

The servant is made ruler over a household and he is to give them meat in due season.

Who is them?

Who does he give meat to, and what is the meat?


The servant is cut in two, just as it shows one taken, and the other left.

The whole world will see this, they will see the servant cut in two.

And after this happens, then the kingdom of heaven has changed, and it is as ten virgins now.


What is the difference between the 5 foolish and the 5 wise?

The foolish have no extra vessel filled with oil, they take only the lamps.

But the wise take an extra vessel that they have filled with oil.

What is the extra vessel?

The wise must know what it is to obtain it, and they have to fill it with oil, and this takes a long, long time.

Where do you get an extra vessel?

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:15

So basically, the Master can return and catch one off guard, walking in the flesh and they will be cut assunder.


"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

So the wicked servant really wasn't a true servant after all. And the 5 virgins really weren't given to Christ by the Father. So it seems....No Oil (Holy Spirit)?

 

[pat34lee]

Much of the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. Could Christ's return also be symbolic? I have heard debates from all sides and still can't come to a solid understanding as to how Christ will return. Does he come back in judgment and redemption for the individual or the whole?

Much of Revelation is symbolic, but it represents actual people, places and future historical events. Yeshua will return to save his people from destruction and to begin his millennial reign. The judgment will be at Yahweh's throne after the millennial reign and the final battle with evil.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:15

So basically, the Master can return and catch one off guard, walking in the flesh and they will be cut assunder.


"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

So the wicked servant really wasn't a true servant after all. And the 5 virgins really weren't given to Christ by the Father. So it seems....No Oil (Holy Spirit)?

The oil is not the Holy spirit, you cannot purchase the Holy spirit.


Judgment begins at the house of God first, at the sanctuary, judgment comes to the people of God first while the whole world sees it.

Judgment comes to those who do not know the hour or the day, they had the instructions as all of us do.

We have no fear of being caught by surprise as if Jesus would come to us like a thief breaking into our house, WE KNOW the times and seasons, we have no fear of being caught doing something bad when God comes, we know his visitation days and we wait upon his promises.


The people were warned before Pentecost and Moses said,'' Stay away from your wives 3 days, for the Lord will visit you on the third day.''


The people were not surprised, they were terrified, but they were warned.

Likewise, the people who had counted the omer right up until the very hour and day of the promise were prepared, and they too were given warning by Jesus himself.

But they were only given warning because they knew the times and seasons and they had no fear of being found doing bad, because what fool would know the visitation days of God and not prepare?

But there is no reason why we shouldn't know that we will be warned, those people who know the times and seasons in the Lord's visitation days WILL be warned.

As far as I know, that's how it works.


The spirit was given on Pentecost as a conclusion day of Passover, and it was given on the same day as the law was given, but there is also a day in the fall when the law is given, and the begins and ends on that day.


But how many are praying with expectation of the promise at the coming of Shemini Atzereth and Simchat Torah?


If a person really does know Christ, then he knows the comings and goings of his own master, and he should know the comings and goings of his own temple that he claims to be.

The servant that doesn't watch is on every corner, in every spot on the earth where a Christian stands.

How many times have we seen a Christian preacher teaching of the fall rain of Shemini Atzereth?

How many sermons have Christian teachers given on Shemini Atzereth?

This day is a Holy day unto itself, and I can't think of a more important Holy day or promises of said Holy day.

I suppose that Christians already have the Holy spirit, and so why would they pray for the rain?

Sadly, Shemini Atzereth is a party by invitation only.

Gentiles come up to the 7 days of Sukkot, but they are sent home on Shemini Atzereth, and interestingly enough, Jesus was circumcised on this day.


How may Christians do not prepare in expectation of Shemini Atzereth and other Holy days?

There will be no excuse whatsoever when you do not know the hour or the day when we have already been shown the days, and we have no fear of Jesus breaking into our house unaware, because we know the times and seasons.

 

[rick357]

Much of the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. Could Christ's return also be symbolic? I have heard debates from all sides and still can't come to a solid understanding as to how Christ will return. Does he come back in judgment and redemption for the individual or the whole?

The word symbolic clouds the vision makes you expect to not understand...think of it as seeing through the eye of the spirit...a picture is worth a thousand words...so it is in reality a clearer picture of what takes place..for the spirit to lead you into all truth you must know all truth is reavealed...if you look for a shadow and in Him is no shadow of turning then who's understanding are you leaning on...please dont consider that I am criticizing only learning to be taught.

 

[Hoshiyya]

literal. john's letters focus especially on the fleshyness, humanity, physicality, tangibility, of Yeshua in both first and second coming.

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

Thanks for the responses but I still am not fully convinced his return is purely symbolic. The language of Peter makes a literal return quite believable.

 

[rick357]

Thanks for the responses but I still am not fully convinced his return is purely symbolic. The language of Peter makes a literal return quite believable.

Went back and read my last post and think maybe it was not clear...yes Yeshua is in us and working all these things and the.vision gives us better focus....but what we now have is an ernest of our inheratance there comes a day when we receive in full...is it "symbolic" yes is it also literal absolutely.

 

[pshun2404]

In the New Covenant writings (which all except Matthew were written in Greek) the word for the "coming" is parousia...the next time He comes is as Moschiach ben-David...Jesus, Paul, John, Mark (whose is the memoirs of Simon Peter), all tell us that when He comes in the clouds "The whole world will see Him"..."every eye" shall see Him...(that includes the unbelievers)...are not even non-Messianic Jewish people awaiting this appearance? Are they waiting for a physically manifest person or a symbolic being in the spirit? Revelations 1:7

 

[rick357]

And again has there ever been given in the Spirit what has not been manifested in the physical.

 

[pshun2404]

Good point Rick...I give your understanding an Amen brother...

 

[HannibalFlavius]

In the New Covenant writings (which all except Matthew were written in Greek) the word for the "coming" is parousia...the next time He comes is as Moschiach ben-David...Jesus, Paul, John, Mark (whose is the memoirs of Simon Peter), all tell us that when He comes in the clouds "The whole world will see Him"..."every eye" shall see Him...(that includes the unbelievers)...are not even non-Messianic Jewish people awaiting this appearance? Are they waiting for a physically manifest person or a symbolic being in the spirit? Revelations 1:7

Clouds are the believers.


The Lord clothes himself in dark waters as his canopy.

We are that Canopy.


When one would look at the tent of meeting, what would he see?

The outer layer is of grey dolphin skin, and to look at it, is to look at a cloud.

We are that temple, and we are the cloud of witnesses spoken of.

 

[rick357]

Clouds are the believers.

The Lord clothes himself in dark waters as his canopy.

We are that Canopy.

When one would look at the tent of meeting, what would he see?

The outer layer is of grey dolphin skin, and to look at it, is to look at a cloud.

We are that temple, and we are the cloud of witnesses spoken of.

You are the temple and at his first coming the temple was found to have corruption presant in it as do you now...at his second coming corruption puts on incorruption...the earnest of your inheratance becomes the full inheratance ...in the first death has no sting in the second death is no more...in the first both vessels one of honor one of dishonor in the second all that offends is cast out

 

[HannibalFlavius]

You are the temple and at his first coming the temple was found to have corruption presant in it as do you now...at his second coming corruption puts on incorruption...the earnest of your inheratance becomes the full inheratance ...in the first death has no sting in the second death is no more...in the first both vessels one of honor one of dishonor in the second all that offends is cast out

A reversal took place in the garden, they found themselves naked, and now we are in the Tabernacle.

Jerusalem comes down from heaven as brides, as a covering of precious stones, but some are inside the bride, and it also says that their will be no temple in the city because God is it's temple.

If God is the temple inside a Tabernacle, then we look at a picture quite different than it is today.

I don't quite see it clearly but I know that the clouds are God's witnesses.

Run with Perseverance
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us

 

[HannibalFlavius]

They go and become part of a cloud.

12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.