Liberal Messianics

[Marius27]

Look at the statistics of just those who attend synagogue every week. They are more likely to be the opposite of the general majority on almost every measure. Especially the Orthodox.

Well, considering how many Jews support it, even many Orthodox Jews, many will be synagogue regulars.

This article from an Orthodox Rabbi:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.666064

I have always believed that the test of community is not how it reaches out to the most powerful, but to the most vulnerable, to those – like the gay community – who suffer from discrimination. It follows that as Orthodox Jews, we have the responsibility of being more loving, more welcoming to the Orthodox gay community as well as to the gay community at large – welcoming them into our synagogues, and their children into our schools. This general approach was outlined in a courageous statement drafted by Rabbi Nati Helfgot in 2010.

Recent polls show around 80% support among religiously affiliated Jews in the US, the majority of which belong to Reform and Conservative Judaism.

Orthodox Judaism is currently struggling with the issue due to the controversy over conversion therapy and the high rates of suicide among Orthodox gay youth. Many Orthodox, except the ultra right wing, agree conversion therapy is harmful and the Rabbinical Council of America disassociated with JONAH, which was a Jewish group offer "healing" for gay Jews (Basically the Jewish version of Exodus International which just closed due to the damage it caused).

 

[Open Heart]

What an absurd statement. You'd have to quote the source of that statistic, and clarify if you're talking about the US or the world in general, and whether secular Jews are counted, Jews who practice Christianity, etc etc.

I cannot imagine that you honestly think that was a convincing or meaningful statement. Nor does such a statistic represent the history and historical religious tradition of Judaism.

The Public Research Religion Institute is saying 77%. However, your question of who are they counting as Jews is a valid one. In the USA most Jews are secular. Even religious Jews tend to be nominally religious. Conservative and Orthodox Jews will not perform same sex marriages. Reform Jews accept same sex marriages who were married civilly. You will find radical Rabbis who bend the rules.

There is always the problem of "Who is a Jew." Do you count only those born to Jewish mothers? Do you count converts? Do you count anyone who feels Jewish? Do you count anyone who is of Jewish descent no matter how distant? I know of at least one Research Study that counted everyone in the house if even one person were Jewish; so let's say that Jewish dad marries Baptist mom and all 5 kids are being raised Christian, they counted the family as 7 Jews.

 

[Open Heart]

Well, considering how many Jews support it, even many Orthodox Jews, many will be synagogue regulars.

I'm not talking about exceptions. We are talking about statistics, and who we really want to pay attention to. I'm certainly not interested in the opinions of secular or nominal Jews, and I believe that the majority of religious Jews share my POV.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"The Public Research Religion Institute is saying 77%"

Also unclear. They are saying WHAT is 77% ?

Is this an American (US) poll, or Israeli, or global, or what ?

 

[Marius27]

What an absurd statement. You'd have to quote the source of that statistic, and clarify if you're talking about the US or the world in general, and whether secular Jews are counted, Jews who practice Christianity, etc etc.

http://forward.com/news/breaking-ne...ggest-backers-of-same-sex-marriage-data-show/

Some 77 percent of American Jews expressed support for same-sex marriage, according to data gathered in 2014 by the Public Religion Research Institute. Some 47 percent of American Jews polled said they “strongly favor” allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally, and 30 percent said they “favor” it.

The only religious group to be more supportive of same-sex marriage are Buddhists at 84 percent

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/1.563541

Meanwhile, 70 percent of Israelis support equal rights for the gay community, according to a poll conducted for Haaretz by the Dialog Institute under the supervision of Prof. Camil Fuchs of the Tel Aviv University Statistics Department.

I cannot imagine that you honestly think that was a convincing or meaningful statement. Nor does such a statistic represent the history and historical religious tradition of Judaism.

Doesn't matter what the historical religious tradition is. Argument from tradition is a logical fallacy. Religious tradition doesn't factor in science or modern understanding of the world and the ancient writings.

The facts are, the vast majority of the world's Jews are Pro-Gay.

 

[Marius27]

I'm not talking about exceptions. We are talking about statistics, and who we really want to pay attention to. I'm certainly not interested in the opinions of secular or nominal Jews, and I believe that the majority of religious Jews share my POV.

What do you consider relevant? Do you only consider Orthodox Jews legitimate? They're a minority. Every other form of Judaism performs same-sex marriages.

 

[Open Heart]

"The Public Research Religion Institute is saying 77%"

Also unclear. They are saying WHAT is 77% ?

Is this an American (US) poll, or Israeli, or global, or what ?

the PRRI is saying that 77% of Jews either favor or strongly favor same sex marriage. It is polling US Jews, whatever "Jews" means to them.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Doesn't matter what the historical religious tradition is. Argument from tradition is a logical fallacy. Religious tradition doesn't factor in science or modern understanding of the world and the ancient writings.

The facts are, the vast majority of the world's Jews are Pro-Gay.

It doesn't surprise me that you believe this, but I am glad you finally came right out and said it.

To me, it doesn't matter what the modern secular trend is.

By the way, I notice a terminological curiosity on your part. You use "Judaism" to mean "Jews / Jewry", which can be quite misleading. Indeed, you seem to count secular Jews as "a Judaism".

Secular people are secular people. With other groups it is easier. For example, Indians and Hindus are not the same. An Indian may well be secular, or a Muslim, and not at all representative of the actual historical religion of Hindu-ism.
To say Hinduism teaches Tauheed for example would be ridiculous.

 

[Marius27]

the PRRI is saying that 77% of Jews either favor or strongly favor same sex marriage. It is polling US Jews, whatever "Jews" means to them.

Yeah, and? That includes Conservative Jews, most whom I'm sure attend services.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

According to polls in 2013, about 20% of Jews consider themselves secular. So even if every secular Jew supported SSM, that still leaves more than half of religious Jews supporting it.

And, you're Catholic. Why are you here arguing on a thread about liberal messianics? I don't think the point of the OP was to get attacked by conservatives.

 

[Open Heart]

What do you consider relevant? Do you only consider Orthodox Jews legitimate? They're a minority. Every other form of Judaism performs same-sex marriages.

Like I said, I only consider religious Jews relevant. I gave regular synagogue attendance as a standard. You really don't find a lot of regular synagogue attendance at a Reform synagogue -- I know, I go there and its deplorable what a teeny minority of the congregation attends at all, much less regularly. The nearest synagogue is a conservative one, which has even lower attendance. And then the NEXT nearest synagogue is a Chabad house, which has more attendance than both of the previous two combined. Which is not to say that this is always the way attnedance statistics go. But I do think that even among the Reform who attend REGULARLY, you would be surprised how many are not comfortable with same sex marriage.

And you are mistaken if you think Conservative Judaism does same sex marriage. I just checked. They bless same sex unions, but will not do same sex marriages.

 

[Open Heart]

And, you're Catholic. Why are you here arguing on a thread about liberal messianics? I don't think the point of the OP was to get attacked by conservatives.

If you check, you will see that I identify myself as a HEBREW Catholic. This is the appropriate Rome approved term for a messianic Jewish Catholic -- meaning that I am a messianic Jew WITHIN the church. I'm neither conservative nor liberal, but have opinions on both sides of the fence; I attend a Reform synagogue. I'm not trying to attack you, and I am genuinely sorry if I am coming across that way. I though I was having a friendly discussion about statistics. I actually did back you up on your "more than 70%" statistic.

 

[Hoshiyya]

the PRRI is saying that 77% of Jews either favor or strongly favor same sex marriage. It is polling US Jews, whatever "Jews" means to them.

Well, as has been pointed out, secular people are just that, secular people. So even atheist Jews are counted, even though the Jewish Scripture goes as far as to call atheists fools (Psalm 14 and Psalm 53).

King David himself said it, and put it to a melody !

 

[Hoshiyya]

And you are mistaken if you think Conservative Judaism does same sex marriage. I just checked. They bless same sex unions, but will not do same sex marriages.

Well that's already quite bad.

 

[Marius27]

Well, as has been pointed out, secular people are just that, secular people. So even atheist Jews are counted, even though the Jewish Scripture goes as far as to call atheists fools (Psalm 14 and Psalm 53).

But only a minority of American Jews are atheist/secular.

King David himself said it, and put it to a melody !

Good for him. Jesus said those Jewish religious leaders who exalt the letter of the law above the spirit of the law are hypocrites and vipers.

 

[Open Heart]

According to polls in 2013, about 20% of Jews consider themselves secular. So even if every secular Jew supported SSM, that still leaves more than half of religious Jews supporting it.

If they are submarine Jews who only surface on Yom Kippur, I consider them secular, but they may very well self identify as religious.

 

[Marius27]

If they are submarine Jews who only surface on Yom Kippur, I consider them secular, but they may very well self identify as religious.

Well, that's your personal opinion of who is and who isn't a Jew. If they claim to be religious, they're religious. We can't go by anything else. I'm sure you consider most American Catholics to be secular too.

I consider myself to be religious, but I no longer attend services, because I have an issue with organized religion, and I don't feel like it fit in, since I'm a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeah they do. They have two types of ceremonies for same-sex couples. The exact same ritual is not done, because it's gender specific in its wording, but they still view it as marriage.

http://www.jta.org/2012/06/04/life-...ssues-guidelines-for-same-sex-wedding-rituals

The Conservative movement — affirming that same-sex marriages have “the same sense of holiness and joy as that expressed in heterosexual marriages” — last week established rituals for same-sex wedding ceremonies.

The Conservative movement’s decision said that, “for observant gay and lesbian Jews who would otherwise be condemned to a life of celibacy or secrecy, their human dignity requires suspension of the rabbinic level prohibitions.”

“We can’t be held hostage to the radical right wing of the Jewish world,” said Kleinbaum, who was ordained by the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. “The Conservative movement is rejecting religion based on bigotry.”

Good Link! I retract what I said earlier about Conservatives not offering SSM.

 

[Open Heart]

Just to try to stay true to the OP a little better...
Do you know any other liberal Messianics besides yourself? I'm genuinely curious how many exist. I find that the movement is dominated by evangelical protestants, who are very conservative.

 

[Marius27]

Just to try to stay true to the OP a little better...
Do you know any other liberal Messianics besides yourself? I'm genuinely curious how many exist. I find that the movement is dominated by evangelical protestants, who are very conservative.

No, I don't know any others, but then I don't know many other Jews at all outside my family. Since Jews for Jesus was created by Southern Baptists as a means to bring Jews to Christianity, I think that's why it's so evangelically dominated in America. Not sure about Messianics in Israel. It does bother me how negatively Jews view Messianics though.

 

[Open Heart]

Well, that's your personal opinion of who is and who isn't a Jew.

Oh, dear me, I did nOT say they weren't a Jew. I simply said they weren't religious, so I don't care about their opinions.