Lets think about the firmament

[AV1611VET]

No wonder Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This thread is an example why that is so true!

 

[RickG]

shamayim is the Hebrew word for heaven. It is used in Gen 1:1 and translated by KJV as "heaven". The exact same word is used in Gen 2:2 and translated by KJV as "heavens".

Mayim is the word for water. I can find no place in scripture where it refers to water vapor, cloud (`anan), or steam.

Where did you get your information?

Rather than translation of what the word is, I would suggest more importantly is what was the original CONTEXT.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The term expanse could have been used by the early translators. Why it wasn't is anyone's guess. Perhaps they had some closely held beliefs that they wanted to impose on the reader, such as this;

"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." Acts 12:4

 

[Merlin]

shamayim is the Hebrew word for heaven. It is used in Gen 1:1 and translated by KJV as "heaven". The exact same word is used in Gen 2:2 and translated by KJV as "heavens".

Mayim is the word for water. I can find no place in scripture where it refers to water vapor, cloud (`anan), or steam.

Where did you get your information?

You are right I meant mayim
that was a typo

 

[juvenissun]

Well, when Genesis says

Gen 1:7
God made the raqiya and separated the waters which were below the raqiya from the waters which were above the raqiya; and it was so.

The question is, what was this "raqiya"?

If one reads the ancient Talmud, one finds an interesting discussion on the idea of the sun's daily travels. The sun goes across the sky on the underside of the firmament where it can shine on the earth below. Then, during the night, the sun goes back across the firmament, to get to its eastern station, only it goes back on the far side, so that the firmament itself blocks the sunlight from getting to us.

Clearly, a rather solid "raqiya" is understood there!

Does the Talmud describe anything like the raqiya?

"during the night, the sun goes back across the firmament ...". Where in the Talmud (the original words) is this implied?

 

[DerelictJunction]

Rather than translation of what the word is, I would suggest more importantly is what was the original CONTEXT.

I have not done an exhaustive search, but I have not found any place in the first books of the Bible where the context could have "mayim" construed to be water vapor or steam.

 

[juvenissun]

I have not done an exhaustive search, but I have not found any place in the first books of the Bible where the context could have "mayim" construed to be water vapor or steam.

Scientifically, water could mean water, ice, vapor, or simply (OH)-.

In the discussion of a specific issue, "water" is use to represent any of the above 4. This SHOULD BE the way ancients used this word.

 

[Papias]

Chetsinger wrote:

I've just looked up every instance of רָקִיעַ in the scriptures (there aren't very many), and from those verses alone I've seen no reason to insist that the רָקִיעַ is solid.

The word, in Hebrew, means "solid bowl". It's the same word used for, say a metal bowl.

I've found a good number of other relevant verses in scripture. Even if we didn't already know that the word meant "solid bowl", these make it pretty clear.

The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And unsurprisingly, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.
Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Firmament - Wikisource, the free online library

In Christ-

Papias

 

[RickG]

Scientifically, water could mean water, ice, vapor, or simply (OH)-.

I belive (OH)- would be a constituent of water, not water specific; therefore, OH− + H+

H2O. Or one might say, dihydrogen monoxide?

 

[juvenissun]

Chetsinger wrote:

The word, in Hebrew, means "solid bowl". It's the same word used for, say a metal bowl.


Papias

Solid is a relative term. It is not necessary a wrong word used on material like the air. At least the Bible does not use a word like "rock" or "metal". They are the words used to describe hard solid at that time.

 

[SkyWriting]

What about you?

I agree with most of the world that the earth is 99.9% flat.

I have a question. Did the builders of the pyramids account for
the curve of the earth? If you use water to create a level
you would find that two measurements over long distances
would not match. Did they account for the earths curve?

Well this is verging on a tautology. All the churches that consider the bible as literal consider the bible as literal. How can that be wrong?

That's a lot of people.

You'll notice your picture is a narrow thing going up taller than it is wide. That's because if you considered really wide area, you would run into changes in the layers. So in the mind one considers only a narrow column of the landscape in order to simplify the description of the layers.

My point being that aliens would think you still believe in
columns or pillars.

This does nothing to remove the point that the earth in the Bible is described as supported on pillars.

And you believe in geologic columns. Not a big difference, on paper.

Besides, we're talking about the Biblical text, written in Hebrew not English, and you should find examples of the Hebrew word to make your point, not the English word.

Well, we also use evidence to guide our faith.

Do tell.

People who object to using evidence to guide their faith are showing the greatest lack of faith, they fear that the evidence will show they were wrong, and that is a lack of faith.

So you say. Now all you need is to support your view showing
that is what people of faith do. Unless you fear the research.

Lets see an example of the Hebrew word for water being used for water vapor in biblical times. Meanwhile, remember that when the windows of heaven were opened, it was not vapor that came down.

The waters above the firmament look pretty "cloudy" to me.

Water comes down in various forms. If you see a vapor rain cloud, and you see rain coming down under the cloud, that would falsify your statement.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Water comes down in various forms. If you see a vapor rain cloud, and you see rain coming down under the cloud, that would falsify your statement.

Great photo of the waters above and below the firmament (expanse where the birds fly) and the purification process.

Context is everything. Notice that the early verses of Genesis deal with various separations, real and metaphorical. The water cycle separates the earthy water from the heavenly water, purifying it through the process of distillation. Without this renewing cycle there would be little clean water on earth. It's a spiritual thing. Another ocean of water above the atmosphere doesn't fit into any logical separation pattern as does almost everything else in the (re)creation story.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

"during the night, the sun goes back across the firmament ...". Where in the Talmud (the original words) is this implied?

If you do an internet search for TALMUD FIRMAMENT you will find this in lots of places. Here is one such search result:

Rationalist Judaism: The Big Picture of the Firmament

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I agree with most of the world that the earth is 99.9% flat.

You didn't answer the question.

I have a question. Did the builders of the pyramids account for
the curve of the earth? If you use water to create a level
you would find that two measurements over long distances
would not match. Did they account for the earths curve?

If you use a local plumb line to set your verticals, you will automatically adjust for the curvature of the earth in your large structures.

Water comes down in various forms. If you see a vapor rain cloud, and you see rain coming down under the cloud, that would falsify your statement.

Today, we know that clouds are made of water. But this is scientific knowledge. Can you show that ancient Hebrews knew that clouds were made of water?

Today, we know that vapor is another form of water. But can you show that ancient Hebrews knew that vapor is another form of water?

 

[ChetSinger]

...Today, we know that vapor is another form of water. But can you show that ancient Hebrews knew that vapor is another form of water?

Sure. For one thing, the garden in Eden was watered by it. Also, I think a farmer would have to be pretty dense to not realize that the morning mist condensed on his crops.

 

[juvenissun]

If you do an internet search for TALMUD FIRMAMENT you will find this in lots of places. Here is one such search result:

Rationalist Judaism: The Big Picture of the Firmament

I read this:

"The Torah had always been understood as describing the firmament as in the following illustration:"

(can't attach the picture. See that link)

I just wonder WHERE did the Torah say that? I actually know where the verse is. But I do not read that it makes ANY hint that the sun is going back "behind the firmament". Somebody simply made this up, and YOU quote the fictional interpretation.

 

[ChetSinger]

Chetsinger wrote:



The word, in Hebrew, means "solid bowl". It's the same word used for, say a metal bowl.

I've found a good number of other relevant verses in scripture. Even if we didn't already know that the word meant "solid bowl", these make it pretty clear.

The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And unsurprisingly, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.
Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Firmament - Wikisource, the free online library

In Christ-

Papias

That's all interesting, yet I'm going to stick with the bulk of the modern translators and their choice of the word "expanse".

 

[Doveaman]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

It has been scientifically demonstrated that the earth is flat.

 

[justlookinla]

dihydrogen monoxide

A chemical used in many poisons and fatal if too much is ingested.

They should ban the stuff!!

 

[Doveaman]

Today, we know that clouds are made of water. But this is scientific knowledge. Can you show that ancient Hebrews knew that clouds were made of water?

How much more evidence do you need? They said it, therefore they knew.

Did the ancients not say there was water above the firmament and under the firmament. The firmament is the lowest part of the earth's atmosphere (the atmospheric boundary layer) between the clouds and the earth's surface.

The water above the firmament is the clouds. The water under the firmament is the one we swim in.