Lets think about the firmament

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.


The view of the heavens in the times of the Bible was that the heavens were a great bowl or firmament placed over the round flat disk that was the earth; the sun, Moon and Stars were in it, they would move along their appointed paths across the inner surface of the firmament. The universe was once all water; the firmament held open a space in the water for dry land to appear. The earth itself was pictured as having columns or pillars under it to hold it up; and all of that was over the waters that were beneath the earth; and these pillars, themselves, rested on nothing, they were just "there" in the waters below the earth.

In the original creation narrative, all that exists is just water; yet there is the proto-earth within that water, waiting:

Gen 1:2
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
NASU

In the creation narrative the earth is revealed by pushing back the water above it with the solid firmament, envisioned as an upside down bowl over the earth, creating a dry space above the earth.

Gen 1:6-8 (ASV)
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Then, on the underneath side, where it would be useful for the inhabitants of the earth, God placed the Sun, Moon, and the stars.

Gen 1:14-18 (ASV)
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: (he made) the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

That the sky above was considered to be a solid thing is verified when Job's friend Elihu spoke to Job about what God did in creating the firmament:

Job 37:18 [NIV]
can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

That the earth is spread out over water is also reported in the Psalms:

Ps 136:6 (NASU)
6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;

And that the waters remain up above the sky is also testified of in the psalms:

Ps 148:4 (NASU)
4 Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens!

The waters above the heavens make their appearance also in the narrative of the great flood:

Gen 7:11 (RSV)
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

The firmament continued after the time of Noah, still fulfilling its job of holding the lights of the Sun, Moon and Stars for us all:

Ps 19:1 (KJV)
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

The cause of night and day is definately the movement of the sun, not the rotation of the earth, as shown by the the same psalm:

Ps 19:4b-6a (NASU)
In them He has placed a tent for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices as a strong man to run his course. Its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them.

And the image of the windows up in the firmament over our heads also appeared as a figure of speech:

2 Kings 7:2 (RSV)
Then the captain on whose hand the king leaned said to the man of God, "If the LORD himself should make windows in heaven, could this thing be?" But he said, "You shall see it with your own eyes, but you shall not eat of it."

Above the firmament was the abode of God. Ezekiel's mystic chariot is understood to be a miniature version of the earth and heavens, with the firmament and God's throne above the firmament shown in relative "miniature" version for him to see. The word "firmament" here is the same as the word "firmament" in Genesis One in the Hebrew.

Ezek 1:25-28 (KJV)
And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Why is it that modern anti-science people accept some science in spite of the literal words of the Bible and deny other science on the grounds it is in conflict with the literal words of the Bible?

It is not based on sound literal exegesis. Instead, it is based on what parts of science has personally convinced them and what parts of science has not personally convinced them. Their own disbelief in the literal words of scripture they tolerate, and then deny the rights of others to do exactly the same thing. In doing this, they leave themselves open to the charge of Jesus against the "lawyers":

"Luke 11:46" But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.


"Luke 11:52" "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering."
NASU

Here's a good picture:

http://evolutionofgenesis.homestead.com/files/AncientFirmament.jpg

 

[juvenissun]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

Firmament is a word not defined. How literal could it be?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Firmament is a word not defined. How literal could it be?

Are you saying the dictionaries put that word in followed by a blank space?

 

[ChetSinger]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

Hmmm, in my experience very few YEC people are flat earth believers. After years here on CF I can count on one hand the flat earthers I've met.

If you're interested in knowing current YEC speculation regarding the firmament I suggest reading Dr. John Hartnett or Dr. Russell Humphreys. Both are physicists. Each has a different idea on where the firmament was/is and what the "waters above" refers to.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

For every 8000 inches the earth curves 1 inch.
Billions of people consider that flat no matter
what stories they hear about how things look
from space.

All conservative churches consider the bible as literal.
I don't know what percentage that would be.

The view of the heavens in the times of the Bible was that the heavens were a great bowl or firmament placed over the round flat disk that was the earth; the sun, Moon and Stars were in it, they would move along their appointed paths across the inner surface of the firmament. The universe was once all water; the firmament held open a space in the water for dry land to appear. The earth itself was pictured as having columns or pillars under it to hold it up; and all of that was over the waters that were beneath the earth; and these pillars, themselves, rested on nothing, they were just "there" in the waters below the earth.

If I were reading about these columns, then looking at current day pictures.......
why would I conclude that you changed your view of these columns?

8000 years from now, you will be considered a "flat earthier" with columns
still holding stuff up and talking about sunrise and sunset as if the world was not turning.

Why is it that modern anti-science people accept some science in spite of the literal words of the Bible and deny other science on the grounds it is in conflict with the literal words of the Bible?

Because accepting any historical account is an act of Faith.

The waters above could be in the form of water vapor so the drawing would not be accurate even if the text was correct.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

For every 8000 inches the earth curves 1 inch.
Billions of people consider that flat no matter
what stories they hear about how things look
from space.

What about you?

All conservative churches consider the bible as literal.
I don't know what percentage that would be.

Well this is verging on a tautology. All the churches that consider the bible as literal consider the bible as literal. How can that be wrong?

If I were reading about these columns, then looking at current day pictures.......
why would I conclude that you changed your view of these columns?

You'll notice your picture is a narrow thing going up taller than it is wide. That's because if you considered really wide area, you would run into changes in the layers. So in the mind one considers only a narrow column of the landscape in order to simplify the description of the layers.

this does nothing to remove the point that the earth in the Bible is described as supported on pillars.

1 Sam 2:8
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
And He set the world on them.
NASU

Besides, we're talking about the Biblical text, written in Hebrew not English, and you should find examples of the Hebrew word to make your point, not the English word.

Because accepting any historical account is an act of Faith.

Well, we also use evidence to guide our faith. People who object to using evidence to guide their faith are showing the greatest lack of faith, they fear that the evidence will show they were wrong, and that is a lack of faith.

The waters above could be in the form of water vapor so the drawing would not be accurate even if the text was correct.

Lets see an example of the Hebrew word for water being used for water vapor in biblical times. Meanwhile, remember that when the windows of heaven were opened, it was not vapor that came down.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

I'm a diehard flat earth believer, am I?

 

[essentialsaltes]

"And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne"

This has always been a favorite. It makes it clearer that the firmament was like a tent over the earth, so that there is an 'above' it.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I'm a diehard flat earth believer, am I?

I'm not able to say that, its up to you to tell us. If, on the other hand, you think the earth is a globe, rotates as the cause of day and night, and orbits the sun, and has no solid firmament over our heads holding back the waters above, why then you are not accepting the literal description of the Bible as to what God made.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not able to say that, its up to you to tell us. If, on the other hand, you think the earth is a globe, rotates as the cause of day and night, and orbits the sun, and has no solid firmament over our heads holding back the waters above, why then you are not accepting the literal description of the Bible as to what God made.

I believe I may have explained that to you before.

The Bible has "heaven" singular in Genesis 1:1.

But after the creation week, "heaven" is plural.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

That's because God created two more heavens that week.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

"Heaven" is properly described as a containment area, created to house specific objects; and is configured thusly:

1. First Heaven = atmosphere = 0-62 miles up
2. Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles-edge of universe
3. Third Heaven = Heaven proper

Thus "firmament" is the same as "heaven" in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Notice here, where God creates the atmosphere by going underwater, creating the atmosphere, and the atmosphere shears off the top layer of water around the globe and balloons it out into space (second heaven)?

That water came back during the Flood, when God created specific entry points to allow the water (as ice probably) to reenter the atmosphere (first heaven).

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

In short, firmament = heaven, and there are three of them.

 

[ChetSinger]

Being able to get yourself to believe such things must make life very simple for you.

Your post strikes me as little more than an insult. You're new here, I hope you add more substance as you continue participating.

This subject isn't so much a matter of scientific understanding as a matter of exegesis.

Afaik, AV1611VET is quite proper that in early Christian thought there were three heavens, and the third one was the abode of God.

Also, I'd like to point out that "firmament" is quite an archaic word (when was the last time you heard it used?), and newer Bibles often translate רָקִיעַ as "expanse".

So the apostle Paul understood three "expanses", the third one being the home of God.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I believe I may have explained that to you before.

The Bible has "heaven" singular in Genesis 1:1.

But after the creation week, "heaven" is plural.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

That's because God created two more heavens that week.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

"Heaven" is properly described as a containment area, created to house specific objects; and is configured thusly:

1. First Heaven = atmosphere = 0-62 miles up
2. Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles-edge of universe
3. Third Heaven = Heaven proper

Thus "firmament" is the same as "heaven" in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Notice here, where God creates the atmosphere by going underwater, creating the atmosphere, and the atmosphere shears off the top layer of water around the globe and balloons it out into space (second heaven)?

That water came back during the Flood, when God created specific entry points to allow the water (as ice probably) to reenter the atmosphere (first heaven).

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

In short, firmament = heaven, and there are three of them.

Sheer speculation. You just make stuff up, and the stuff you make up is no more compatible with reality than the literal words of Genesis you are trying to rescue!

There's no reason to read a lot into "heaven" vs "heavens". Go to an astronomical star party. Ask the first guy what he's looking at. "I'm surveying heaven", he says. Ask the second guy what he's looking at. "I'm viewing the heavens", he says.

They are looking at the same thing.

Hey, I too am a fan of re-interpreting Genesis to fit reality. I must confess, I do it myself. I interpret it to be compatible with evolution and the great age of the earth.

Of course one can do that. Its no harder than what you just explained you did right here.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Your post strikes me as little more than an insult. You're new here, I hope you add more substance as you continue participating.

This subject isn't so much a matter of scientific understanding as a matter of exegesis.

Afaik, AV1611VET is quite proper that in early Christian thought there were three heavens, and the third one was the abode of God.

Also, I'd like to point out that "firmament" is quite an archaic word (when was the last time you heard it used?), and newer Bibles often translate רָקִיעַ as "expanse".

So the apostle Paul understood three "expanses", the third one being the home of God.

Well, when Genesis says

Gen 1:7
God made the raqiya and separated the waters which were below the raqiya from the waters which were above the raqiya; and it was so.

The question is, what was this "raqiya"?

If one reads the ancient Talmud, one finds an interesting discussion on the idea of the sun's daily travels. The sun goes across the sky on the underside of the firmament where it can shine on the earth below. Then, during the night, the sun goes back across the firmament, to get to its eastern station, only it goes back on the far side, so that the firmament itself blocks the sunlight from getting to us.

Clearly, a rather solid "raqiya" is understood there!

 

[ChetSinger]

Well, when Genesis says

Gen 1:7
God made the raqiya and separated the waters which were below the raqiya from the waters which were above the raqiya; and it was so.

The question is, what was this "raqiya"?

If one reads the ancient Talmud, one finds an interesting discussion on the idea of the sun's daily travels. The sun goes across the sky on the underside of the firmament where it can shine on the earth below. Then, during the night, the sun goes back across the firmament, to get to its eastern station, only it goes back on the far side, so that the firmament itself blocks the sunlight from getting to us.

Clearly, a rather solid "raqiya" is understood there!

Yes, it sounds like that rabbi understood it to be solid. Nevertheless, many modern Bibles use the word "expanse". Do you think they're wrong to do so?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Yes, it sounds like that rabbi understood it to be solid. Nevertheless, many modern Bibles use the word "expanse". Do you think they're wrong to do so?

Well, in English its a word that allows us to get away from the solidity of the firmament. Is it "wrong" to translate Genesis in that way? Its not as literal as it could have been, but it does help the modern reader to move from the ancient world view to accomodating the message of Genesis to the modern understanding of the vast expanse of space.

Is that "wrong"? It makes it more difficult to point out the literal original Hebrew meaning, it makes it easier for the modern reader to accept. I cannot bring myself to condemn translators who use the word "expanse".

But it is a departure from being strictly literal, if that's what you want to ask.

 

[ChetSinger]

Well, in English its a word that allows us to get away from the solidity of the firmament. Is it "wrong" to translate Genesis in that way? Its not as literal as it could have been, but it does help the modern reader to move from the ancient world view to accomodating the message of Genesis to the modern understanding of the vast expanse of space.

Is that "wrong"? It makes it more difficult to point out the literal original Hebrew meaning, it makes it easier for the modern reader to accept. I cannot bring myself to condemn translators who use the word "expanse".

But it is a departure from being strictly literal, if that's what you want to ask.

I've just looked up every instance of רָקִיעַ in the scriptures (there aren't very many), and from those verses alone I've seen no reason to insist that the רָקִיעַ is solid.

The passages are in Genesis, Psalms, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

Sure, the rabbis might have believed the sky is solid, but the use of the word רָקִיעַ doesn't demand it, imo.

For example, Young's Literal Translation translates every occurrence as "expanse", and each sounds quite appropriate to me.

 

[Merlin]

Nobody today accepts the Genesis narrative as literal except a few diehard flat earth believers, if such still exist today.

I still take Genesis as a literal still thank you.
But I believe the earth is round.
Yes we still exist today!

 

[Merlin]

Lets see an example of the Hebrew word for water being used for water vapor in biblical times. Meanwhile, remember that when the windows of heaven were opened, it was not vapor that came down.

The hebrew word, shamayim, refers to both water and water vapor.
So, it might refer to either

 

[Merlin]

There's no reason to read a lot into "heaven" vs "heavens". Go to an astronomical star party. Ask the first guy what he's looking at. "I'm surveying heaven", he says. Ask the second guy what he's looking at. "I'm viewing the heavens", he says.

Why do you keep trying to apply 21st century word meanings to a translation done in the 16th century?

 

[DerelictJunction]

The hebrew word, shamayim, refers to both water and water vapor.
So, it might refer to either

shamayim is the Hebrew word for heaven. It is used in Gen 1:1 and translated by KJV as "heaven". The exact same word is used in Gen 2:2 and translated by KJV as "heavens".

Mayim is the word for water. I can find no place in scripture where it refers to water vapor, cloud (`anan), or steam.

Where did you get your information?