kyana and qnume

Nathaniel Red

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Hello, I don't know much about Oriental Orthodoxy, but I have heard that some Oriental Orthodox use the terms "Kyana" and "Qnume" rather than Greek terms like hypostasis, physis, and prosopon. But I have also heard that the Church of the East uses these same terms in their theology. Is there anyone here who can explain in depth what the words mean, and how the OO view of the terms is different from the CotEs view of the terms? Both in Triadology and Christology?
 

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Hello, I don't know much about Oriental Orthodoxy, but I have heard that some Oriental Orthodox use the terms "Kyana" and "Qnume" rather than Greek terms like hypostasis, physis, and prosopon. But I have also heard that the Church of the East uses these same terms in their theology. Is there anyone here who can explain in depth what the words mean, and how the OO view of the terms is different from the CotEs view of the terms? Both in Triadology and Christology?
I think it’s better to ask this question christians of ACE.
 
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I don't see any forum here for the Church of the East, unless I missed it. Are there not any knowledgeable Syriac Christians on this sub?

We have one Syriac Orthodox member but I havent seen him around lately. However, I know the meanings of these terms, and I will brief you on it in a day or so. Unfortunately my Christmas is marred with sickness.
 
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Tigran1245

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I don't see any forum here for the Church of the East, unless I missed it. Are there not any knowledgeable Syriac Christians on this sub?
There is a book «Christology of ACE». There are all definitions of qnome and kyana, parsopa.

But this book is in Russian. If you are interested, I can send pdf to you. You can read using Google Translate.
 
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There is a book «Christology of ACE». There are all definitions of qnome and kyana, parsopa.

But this book is in Russian. If you are interested, I can send pdf to you. You can read using Google Translate.

You could send it to me too. However it should be noted that there are some malcontents in the Assyrian Church like the guy who runs Nestorian.org who try to claim the church still adheres to Nestorianism rather than the revised Christology implemented by Mar Babai the Great. So hopefully it is not that.

By the way, I find chatgpt does a much better job at translation than Google Translate although you have to coerce version 4 a bit into cooperating; version 3.5 on the other hand will readily translate, no questions asked.
 
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You could send it to me too. However it should be noted that there are some malcontents in the Assyrian Church like the guy who runs Nestorian.org who try to claim the church still adheres to Nestorianism rather than the revised Christology implemented by Mar Babai the Great. So hopefully it is not that.

By the way, I find chatgpt does a much better job at translation than Google Translate although you have to coerce version 4 a bit into cooperating; version 3.5 on the other hand will readily translate, no questions asked.
Dear brothers,

You can download it here: Селезнев - Христология Церкви Востока.pdf
 
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Nathaniel Red

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You could send it to me too. However it should be noted that there are some malcontents in the Assyrian Church like the guy who runs Nestorian.org who try to claim the church still adheres to Nestorianism rather than the revised Christology implemented by Mar Babai the Great. So hopefully it is not that.

By the way, I find chatgpt does a much better job at translation than Google Translate although you have to coerce version 4 a bit into cooperating; version 3.5 on the other hand will readily translate, no questions asked.
How does the Assyrian Church not adhere to Nestorianism? They venerate Nestorius. What is the difference with Mar Babai? I've heard this claim once before, but would you consider Babai as having a completely different system with some influences from Nestorius, or as a continuation of Nestorius, or a development of doctrine, or exactly how are they related and not related? I've heard of some Oriental Orthodox that try and say that they actually are Monophysites, when most would reject that term. Is this similar? I'll check out the linked document though, I really appreciate it. Merry Christmas!
 
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Thank you my brother. By the way, can you read classical Armenian? There are some ancient liturgical manuscripts from your church that I would like to have, to see if I could get them translated into English, either manually or using chatgpt if the text of the manuscripts could be transcribed.
Unfortunately, I don't know Armenian language. I only know Russian and English.

As for the liturgy of the Armenian Church, I can send it to you in three languages: ancient Armenian (grabar), modern Armenian and Russian.
 
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How does the Assyrian Church not adhere to Nestorianism? They venerate Nestorius. What is the difference with Mar Babai? I've heard this claim once before, but would you consider Babai as having a completely different system with some influences from Nestorius, or as a continuation of Nestorius, or a development of doctrine, or exactly how are they related and not related? I've heard of some Oriental Orthodox that try and say that they actually are Monophysites, when most would reject that term. Is this similar? I'll check out the linked document though, I really appreciate it. Merry Christmas!
In general, they believe that Christ is one Person in two hypostases and natures. And this is how they understand Nestorius and Mar Babai.

So, their Nestorius understanding is different from our understanding. That’s why we have common ground that Christ is one Son and Person.
 
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In general, they believe that Christ is one Person in two hypostases and natures. And this is how they understand Nestorius and Mar Babai.

So, their Nestorius understanding is different from our understanding. That’s why we have common ground that Christ is one Son and Person.

You are correct, historically, although happily at present I am pleased to inform you, as someone who via an accident managed to be received in both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and who opposes the continuation of that schism, but the Assyrians still have some problems, but are improving - whereas they did believe in Nestorianism in the 5th century, their stance has moderated. They now agree with the Chalcedonians and the Oriental Orthodox, that Christ is fully God and fully man, united in one person without change, confusion, division or separation.

The essence of the Nestorian heresy was the insistence of a division or separation between the humanity and divinity of Christ, so that the principle of communicatio idiomatum would not apply, and this flowed naturally from the root heresy of Nestorius, which was a milder form of the heresy previously identified by St. Epiphanios of Salamis in the 4th century Panarion , as Antidicomarianism, which is a refusal to venerate St. Mary. Nestorius believed the people of Constantinople venerated her excessively, and so to deprecate that, he persecuted with violence those who confessed Our Lady to be Theotokos.

However, there was a mishap at Ephesus, perhaps an intentional one, on either side, wherein the correct action of that council lead by St. Cyril the Great with the support of other bishops such as St. Celestine the bishop of Rome to depose Nestorius as Patriarch was made before some bishops from the Persian Empire arrived, and this resulted in a schism, although after Chalcedon, which Nestorius claimed to support in his memoirs “The Bazaar of Heraclides”, in which he was probably honest, as there was a crypto-Nestorian element, but Chalcedonian Christology thanks largely to the influence of St. Severus of Antioch on Emperor Justinian during his early years before Justinian began to persecute the holy Oriental Orthodox churches, especially the Syriac Orthodox, arresting and probably executing most of their bishops except for St. Jacob bar Addai, who was aided by Empress St. Theodora and avoided capture and acting solus as warranted by the emergency, ordained hundreds of bishops for what is now the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antiochl

But before Justinian renounced Theopaschite Orthodoxy in favor of a complex heterodoxy called “Apthartodocetism”, he did at least cause a lasting shift in Eastern Orthodox Christology by introducing the hymn originally composed by St. Severus, Ho Monogenes, which opens the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and is used by the Copts in Holy Week, and it was appended to the Second Antiphon of the Byzantine Synaxis, which later became part of the Armenian liturgy as well.

In English, this hymn is

Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary;
Who without change didst become man and was crucified;
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us![6]

I regard it as a proof of Christological Orthodoxy.

The Trisagion is more complex since in Oriental Orthodoxy, we understand it as being Christological, whereas in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is interpreted as Trinitarian.

This kind of misunderstanding later was repeated in the schism between the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and the Czar, because the Greeks, who Patriarch Nikon assumed were correct, make the sign with three fingers as a Trinitarian gesture, whereas the Russians traditionally used two fingers to symbolize the humanity and divinity of Christ. Fortunately that schism partially healed when the Old Orthodox stopped being persecuted and some, the Edinovertsy, re-entered into communion with the canonical Russian church while retaining the ancient Russian liturgy which we now know was not, contrary to what Czar Peter and Patriarch Nikon assumed, corrupt, but rather reflected an older recension of the Studite-Sabaite monastic typikon.

Unfortunately the Assyrians have not yet adopted this hymn, and this is one of the challenges they face theologically, but they have improved and are moving closer to us, and they do not confess the filioque.

These schisms are all very sad. But given the reconciliation between the Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochian Orthodox, and the Copts and the Alexandrian Orthodox (indeed, Syriac Orthodox can receive communion in Antiochian parishes in the Middle East, and Copts likewise usually can in the Greek churches of Alexandria, and vice versa, and also I have heard the monks at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai will give communion to Coptic pilgrims.

So we have to pray for progress with the Assyrians, and I have heard it is happening between the Assyrians and the Russians.

By the way @Tigran1245 , I am very curious, and I suspect so is our brother @dzheremi , how things are between the Armenian and Russian churches at present.
 
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Tigran1245

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You are correct, historically, although happily at present I am pleased to inform you, as someone who via an accident managed to be received in both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and who opposes the continuation of that schism, but the Assyrians still have some problems, but are improving - whereas they did believe in Nestorianism in the 5th century, their stance has moderated. They now agree with the Chalcedonians and the Oriental Orthodox, that Christ is fully God and fully man, united in one person without change, confusion, division or separation.

The essence of the Nestorian heresy was the insistence of a division or separation between the humanity and divinity of Christ, so that the principle of communicatio idiomatum would not apply, and this flowed naturally from the root heresy of Nestorius, which was a milder form of the heresy previously identified by St. Epiphanios of Salamis in the 4th century Panarion , as Antidicomarianism, which is a refusal to venerate St. Mary. Nestorius believed the people of Constantinople venerated her excessively, and so to deprecate that, he persecuted with violence those who confessed Our Lady to be Theotokos.

However, there was a mishap at Ephesus, perhaps an intentional one, on either side, wherein the correct action of that council lead by St. Cyril the Great with the support of other bishops such as St. Celestine the bishop of Rome to depose Nestorius as Patriarch was made before some bishops from the Persian Empire arrived, and this resulted in a schism, although after Chalcedon, which Nestorius claimed to support in his memoirs “The Bazaar of Heraclides”, in which he was probably honest, as there was a crypto-Nestorian element, but Chalcedonian Christology thanks largely to the influence of St. Severus of Antioch on Emperor Justinian during his early years before Justinian began to persecute the holy Oriental Orthodox churches, especially the Syriac Orthodox, arresting and probably executing most of their bishops except for St. Jacob bar Addai, who was aided by Empress St. Theodora and avoided capture and acting solus as warranted by the emergency, ordained hundreds of bishops for what is now the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antiochl
In general, Nestorius allowed calling Mary the «Mother of God». But he considered «Mother of Christ» a better name. He said:

«The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God <...> because the Temple created in her by the Holy Spirit is united with the Divine.»
But before Justinian renounced Theopaschite Orthodoxy in favor of a complex heterodoxy called “Apthartodocetism”, he did at least cause a lasting shift in Eastern Orthodox Christology by introducing the hymn originally composed by St. Severus, Ho Monogenes, which opens the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and is used by the Copts in Holy Week, and it was appended to the Second Antiphon of the Byzantine Synaxis, which later became part of the Armenian liturgy as well.
By the way, the Armenian Church anathematizes Severus of Antioch for his teaching about corruption of Christ before resurrection.
In English, this hymn is

Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary;
Who without change didst become man and was crucified;
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us![6]

I regard it as a proof of Christological Orthodoxy.

The Trisagion is more complex since in Oriental Orthodoxy, we understand it as being Christological, whereas in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is interpreted as Trinitarian.
The Armenian Fathers have many works in defense of the Trisagion.
This kind of misunderstanding later was repeated in the schism between the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and the Czar, because the Greeks, who Patriarch Nikon assumed were correct, make the sign with three fingers as a Trinitarian gesture, whereas the Russians traditionally used two fingers to symbolize the humanity and divinity of Christ. Fortunately that schism partially healed when the Old Orthodox stopped being persecuted and some, the Edinovertsy, re-entered into communion with the canonical Russian church while retaining the ancient Russian liturgy which we now know was not, contrary to what Czar Peter and Patriarch Nikon assumed, corrupt, but rather reflected an older recension of the Studite-Sabaite monastic typikon.
The problem is that the Old Orthodox believe in all seriousness that their rite has been around since the time of Christ and that it is the only dogmatically correct one. Therefore, I don’t see the possibility to overcome this split. Although the Russian Church has created parishes with the old rite.
Unfortunately the Assyrians have not yet adopted this hymn, and this is one of the challenges they face theologically, but they have improved and are moving closer to us, and they do not confess the filioque.

These schisms are all very sad. But given the reconciliation between the Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochian Orthodox, and the Copts and the Alexandrian Orthodox (indeed, Syriac Orthodox can receive communion in Antiochian parishes in the Middle East, and Copts likewise usually can in the Greek churches of Alexandria, and vice versa, and also I have heard the monks at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai will give communion to Coptic pilgrims.
It sounds great!
So we have to pray for progress with the Assyrians, and I have heard it is happening between the Assyrians and the Russians.
No, Russian missionaries are actively fighting the Nestorians from the Assyrian Church. A lot of anti-Nestrian propaganda.
By the way @Tigran1245 , I am very curious, and I suspect so is our brother @dzheremi , how things are between the Armenian and Russian churches at present.
When it comes to cooperation in the social sphere, we are “brothers in Christ” and the “ancient Church”. When it comes to Eucharistic communion and dogmatic unity, we immediately become “monophysite heretics” and “schismatics”
 
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By the way, the Armenian Church anathematizes Severus of Antioch for his teaching about corruption of Christ before resurrection.

Oh, that must be the reason why the Syriac Orthodox church severed communion with the Armenian church for a few centuries. I had wondered why that had happened. This fact is not widely known among Syriac or Coptic Christians who generally do venerate Severus.
 
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In general, Nestorius allowed calling Mary the «Mother of God». But he considered «Mother of Christ» a better name. He said:

«The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God <...> because the Temple created in her by the Holy Spirit is united with the Divine.»

Interesting, I did not know that. That is even more perverse a Nestorianism than what I have been taught.
 
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Therefore, I don’t see the possibility to overcome this split.

In the US, there was a priestless Old Believer parish which was converted and became edinovertsy under ROCOR, the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA. They have since translated their service books into English.
 
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