Kallistos Ware Comes Out For Homosexual Marriage

[gzt]

Or when you want a clearly articulated answer or other people are asking the question and you want to make sure it is answered. I would note that there are people representing the traditional church position answering the journal as well.

 

[FenderTL5]

"He asked can we expect homosexuals (or anyone else who is not married because this question can very easily be applied to them) be celibate?"

Please answer this question. Just in case I was not clear before, hopefully this repetition will make it very clear.

The answer is, "yes."

And I still think the Metropolitan raises issues worthy of discussion - not because the church's historical position is wrong or even needs to be challenged, but because the Church's long existing position could benefit by being clarified/defined against the backdrop of modern society.

 

[GregConstantine]

Or when you want a clearly articulated answer or other people are asking the question and you want to make sure it is answered. I would note that there are people representing the traditional church position answering the journal as well.

Can you expect homosexuals to be celibate? (and by extension, any unmarried person)

Please answer this question. After all, his emminance is asking this question.

 

[GregConstantine]

Or when you want a clearly articulated answer or other people are asking the question and you want to make sure it is answered. I would note that there are people representing the traditional church position answering the journal as well.

Is there another position?

 

[GregConstantine]

The answer is, "yes."

And I still think the Metropolitan raises issues worthy of discussion - not because the church's historical position is wrong or even needs to be challenged, but because the Church's long existing position could benefit by being clarified/defined against the backdrop of modern society.

Thank you and I would agree. We do need to articulate better our beliefs and teachings.

 

[gzt]

So one thing I haven't seen people discussing (perhaps because I haven't bothered to read all ten pages of the discussion) is the pieces that have been released from the journal so far - here is Fr Andrew Louth's editorial "Being Human": https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d0df1ee4b036ef1e44b144/t/5b199e96758d46f4d2641f4a/1528405714624/#13:14+Being+Human.pdf
He seems to anticipate the reactivity here - though I certainly see where some might worry.

And then there is Fr John Behr's rather dense article From Adam to Christ: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d0df1ee4b036ef1e44b144/t/5b211d08f950b752810b01e2/1528896795990/Issue+#13:14+Behr.pdf I confess I haven't quite finished it, it's pretty thick.

While some of the later articles are certainly going to, uh, be less orthodox (and those generally from people who are admittedly outside the Church), I don't think we have to worry that people representing the Orthodox Church are going astray by discussing these issues.

 

[GregConstantine]

So one thing I haven't seen people discussing (perhaps because I haven't bothered to read all ten pages of the discussion) is the pieces that have been released from the journal so far - here is Fr Andrew Louth's editorial "Being Human": https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d0df1ee4b036ef1e44b144/t/5b199e96758d46f4d2641f4a/1528405714624/#13:14+Being+Human.pdf
He seems to anticipate the reactivity here - though I certainly see where some might worry.

And then there is Fr John Behr's rather dense article From Adam to Christ: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d0df1ee4b036ef1e44b144/t/5b211d08f950b752810b01e2/1528896795990/Issue+#13:14+Behr.pdf I confess I haven't quite finished it, it's pretty thick.

While some of the later articles are certainly going to, uh, be less orthodox (and those generally from people who are admittedly outside the Church), I don't think we have to worry that people representing the Orthodox Church are going astray by discussing these issues.

Can we expect homosexuals (and by extension, single people) be celibate?

 

[Platina]

This is how an Orthodox bishop should address such issues: Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev speaks out against LGBT “March for Equality”

 

[gzt]

This is how an Orthodox bishop should address such issues: Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev speaks out against LGBT “March for Equality”

Well, that's your opinion, I don't know how many people find that a satisfying response when people are asking for, say, the reasoning behind it or desiring to otherwise engage in reasoned discourse.

 

[Platina]

Met. Kallistos has maybe one line in his article about inquiring about the reasoning behind it. He spends much more time lamenting that it's so hard for homosexuals to be celibate, and then asks if they really have to be. He's barely addressing pastoral issues, and is actually calling theology into question.

Fr. Lawrence is quite right that he's being all academic and no bishop in this case. A bishop doesn't ask supposedly Orthodox questions so that open homosexuals who haven't been Orthodox for years can answer them.

No matter how much he says he doesn't agree with everything in some of the articles, and no matter how much Fr. Louth's article might be good, Met. Kallistos and the others are still participating in, and therefore approving of heretical, soul-destroying filth being published and branded as "Orthodox."

 

[gzt]

So, basically, his article starts from cheap shots dragging Met Kallistos, then noting, "it would be unfair to characterize his stance as pro-gay...", and then proceeding through guilt by association. It's not a piece I'm going to take seriously.

 

[GregConstantine]

Once again for those here thinking Ware is within the tradition, Do you, or do you not think that homosexuals can be celibate? This is the third or fourth time I've asked this question. I will assume silence speaks consent, and the answer is, "no, they cannot."

 

[Platina]

And isn't it interesting that Met. Kallistos accusingly asks "Why are we so obsessed with genital sex?" when he is the one that seems to think homosexuals need to have genital sex?

 

[Platina]

So, basically, his article starts from cheap shots dragging Met Kallistos, then noting, "it would be unfair to characterize his stance as pro-gay...", and then proceeding through guilt by association. It's not a piece I'm going to take seriously.

Sorry, the notion that Fr. Lawrence's article isn't serious, but that The Wheel, which puts Orthodox issues into the hands of Gregory Tucker and Marjorie Corbman, IS serious, is just bat crap crazy.

 

[gzt]

Sorry, the notion that Fr. Lawrence's article isn't serious, but that The Wheel, which puts Orthodox issues into the hands of Gregory Tucker and Marjorie Corbman, IS serious, is just bat crap crazy.

His article is mostly guilt-by-association. If one is going to have reasoned discussion between the Church and people that disagree with it, which is what is going on in the Wheel, those are the people you would publish on the dissenting end - and all participants would be using reasoned arguments.

 

[Platina]

No, he actually deals with what the metropolitan says.

 

[gzt]

No, he actually deals with what the metropolitan says.

A little bit, eventually, after noting "it would be unfair to characterize his stance as pro-gay..." and a mound of non sequiturs.

 

[Platina]

You're just making excuses to not engage. But that fits well with the "academic" vein of this journal.

 

[gzt]

I'm not particularly interested in what his article has to say, true.

EDIT: I mean, he says this:

The Metropolitan writes as if he were always in his lecture hall, when in fact he is writing in the middle of a war zone. The truth is being challenged, and souls are being enticed, deceived, and lost. What one needs from a bishop now is not questions, but answers, not the murmur of a lecturer, but the blast of a trumpet. As a bishop, that is his job.

I don't agree with that characterization.

 

[Anhelyna]

Ladies and Gentlemen

Enough is enough

Ladies and gentlemen, sadly this thread is now full of argument and debate. I think the time has come for a 48 hour break so all can reflect upon what they have written.

I would remind you all that this main board is a no debate area - even for members of TAW

Anhelyna - Senior Ambassador member